Cops 9: You Are What Now?

[Handyman]

Re: Cops 9: You Are What Now?

Exactly the sentiment I was trying to get across. In addition to perception being 9/10ths reality I'll add that other rule of politics: if you're explaining, you're losing. I see Handy's point about this being a local issue and he's right up to a point, but eventually Biden and all Dems are going to be forced to take a stand on abolishing the police whether or not that's the actual meaning behind the idea. Gotta be smart about this one.

Reporter: Where do you stand on abolishing the police?
Biden: I personally would not call for the abolishing the police, but if Minneapolis or Los Angeles feels they need to try something new, we support their right to do so.
Reporter: So it is not a part of your agenda?
Biden: It is not. Communities decide who they have police them. I support their right to make that choice. Just because I am the President doesnt mean I make these decisions for them.

It is literally a 5 second soundbyte (maybe ten...Biden pauses a lot) and it says everything that needs to be said AND it takes a subtle shot at Trump. its easy.

They are always going to find something to hang o the Democrats. The key is to have the answer ready and make it clear and concise. There is no explanation needed. Minneapolis decides what Minneapolis does. NY decides what NY does. The voters decide what is best for them.

 

[WeAreNDHockey]

Re: Cops 9: You Are What Now?

You can like the people without liking the organization.

Does Houghton have a police force of its own or is the Sheriff in charge? (honest question I have never been there)

Andy Taylor and Barney Fife at your service!

Actually yes, Houghton has a small police department consisting of a chief, a couple of supervisory officers and a handful of patrol officers.

 

[alfablue]

Re: Cops 9: You Are What Now?

it's getting harder every day to defend cops as they sit right now.

Every day, we see more abuse, more violence, more of everything we should not have.

People are starting to realize that "Law and Order" does not mean rule of law.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Cops 9: You Are What Now?

The "abolish the police" movement creates two problems for the left. First, it gives something for Trump to run against. I don't think most of the people pushing the "abolish the police" program care about that problem.

Problem number two is trickier, however. If you went out into the crowds and talked to people about what they mean, there aren't many of them talking about a nuanced shift of spending from police to community services. Most of them will tell you, "no, we are going to literally abolish the police."

That isn't going to happen. So now the left has a disillusioned and angry group of people the left must rely upon for their support. That is a bigger problem.

Yeah but that is a small group amongst a larger movement. Most prefer defunding and starting again to outright never having cops around. And as you said the City cant do that anyways.

And with every issue there is always that group that is 2 steps farther than everybody else and super hardcore about it. They can yell and shout as much as they want they dont have the numbers to actually get the sort of change they want. If they did that would be the actual discussion. They also arent educated on how everything works, so no matter what they are going to be disillusioned in some capacity.

It is like the people who were screaming and yelling for an arrest, then were screaming and yelling for the charges to be greater, then screaming and yelling for more arrests. They were all going to come about, but there are steps in the process. Those steps created disillusionment. Didnt change anything and everything proceeded exactly how it should have. That is the same thing that will likely come about with this.

 

[rufus]

Re: Cops 9: You Are What Now?

it's getting harder every day to defend cops as they sit right now.

Every day, we see more abuse, more violence, more of everything we should not have.

People are starting to realize that "Law and Order" does not mean rule of law.

Someone else said it, not me, but:

Protests are started against police using excessive force and violence toward the public

Police: No we don't

And then proceed to go out there and demonstrate exactly why these protests are needed.

 

[burd]

Re: Cops 9: You Are What Now?

Are cops in UK still limited in their authority to carry firearms?

 

[Kepler]

Re: Cops 9: You Are What Now?

Though I am fully on board with abolishing / defunding / restricting the police I recognize it's next to impossible to imagine the US taking the lead on something as radical as rethinking law enforcement. There are many other western nations (almost all of them to be honest) who are better positioned to make those strides. Countries without our twin legacies of institutional racism and wackadoodle authoritarian fundamentalism have the flexibility to throw out obsolete institutions like police when they no longer make sense. Iceland, any of the Scandinavian nations, New Zealand, France, Germany, Benelux, Switzerland, even some of the new democracies like Czech Republic are all far more likely to give it a run. They are all better countries to live in.

The US was a landmark free nation in the 18th century. We have fallen to the back now and are among the least free of the western democracies (except for the freedom for billionaires to get richer). It is unlikely the US will pioneer this. We have become the reactionary, aristocratic Old World. The torch of freedom has moved on.

 

[WeAreNDHockey]

Re: Cops 9: You Are What Now?

Are cops in UK still limited in their authority to carry firearms?

Northern Ireland cops carry firearms. In the rest of the U.K. it is not part of their standard operating procedures to carry lethal weapons but firearms are readily available to special units.

 

[geezer]

Re: Cops 9: You Are What Now?

You can like the people without liking the organization.

Does Houghton have a police force of its own or is the Sheriff in charge? (honest question I have never been there)

Yeah... I've been thinking about this, too. Houghton, Hancock, etc. all have police depts... so does Michigan Tech (7,000 people), so does Laurium (2,000) and Village of Calumet (800 people). Meanwhile Houghton Co. runs the sheriff dept and jail for them all, but for actual trouble there are MSP posts 12 miles north in Calumet and 30 miles south in L'Anse. And in case of real, real trouble, a Nat'l Guard armory in Calumet Twp.
We could at least, be trimming some fat here. Even though I know many of these guys and they're good people and all. Do we really need this many overlapping law enforcement agencies?

 

[WeAreNDHockey]

Re: Cops 9: You Are What Now?

Joe Biden comes out against 'defund the police' push amid mounting attacks from Trump after George Floyd protests

I think Biden's stance on this issue is exactly like most of us expected it would be.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Cops 9: You Are What Now?

Joe Biden comes out against 'defund the police' push amid mounting attacks from Trump after George Floyd protests

I think Biden's stance on this issue is exactly like most of us expected it would be.

It's the smart move politically. Say it with me: WI, PA, MI. Alcoholic wife beaters don't want to abolish the police; they don't even want the police to stop murdering blacks. Pander to them, win their votes, win the election.

If reform happens it will need to be local, with the feds butting out. Much like pot legalization.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Cops 9: You Are What Now?

Andy Taylor and Barney Fife at your service!

Actually yes, Houghton has a small police department consisting of a chief, a couple of supervisory officers and a handful of patrol officers.

Huh interesting...thanks for the info.

FWIW from what I have read the majority support community policing over city policing so that is what the overall shift would be. I have no idea how that would work but I havent looked into it that much since it has been a day since the announcement. I would prefer if Minneapolis was split up into subsections and you have each community have a police force made up of locals sanctioned by Minneapolis. (though not under the banner of the MPD) You could break it down as "Downtown", "South/Uptown", "North Minneapolis"...etc. The communities are in control.

I think this works better than what is in place now. South Minneapolis needs a different style of policing than North Minneapolis does. Downtown is completely different from both. Trying to police all of them the same way with the same people is a fools errand and we have seen that the cops have no issue mocking certain areas and having a very abhorrent attitude towards the citizens there. (like the MPD cop who was derogatory towards Cedar/Riverside on Facebook for example) It is worth looking into if there is a better way.

Make no mistake, I am still not sure I agree with any of this. I think if I still lived in the city though I might quite a bit.

On another topic I was having a discussion yesterday about all of this and I think this might be the people finally trying to take back their freedom post 9/11. I think people have finally had enough letting their fear embolden anyone from taking away their rights. People ceded a lot after 9/11 in order to feel protected and I just wonder if maybe now they just arent having it anymore. I mean most of the college kids probably were born right around when that happened so all they have seen is an America that allows itself to be under the thumb of authority.

 

[Deutsche Gopher Fan]

Re: Cops 9: You Are What Now?

American heroes!

“ JUST IN: Two law enforcement agencies acknowledged Monday that officers patrolling Minneapolis during the recent protests knifed the tires of numerous vehicles parked and unoccupied in at least two locations.”

Per star tribune

 

[Handyman]

Re: Cops 9: You Are What Now?

Joe Biden comes out against 'defund the police' push amid mounting attacks from Trump after George Floyd protests

I think Biden's stance on this issue is exactly like most of us expected it would be.

So the world isnt falling apart like CNN said?

(Biden is playing it perfect)

 

[Handyman]

Re: Cops 9: You Are What Now?

Someone else said it, not me, but:

Protests are started against police using excessive force and violence toward the public

Police: No we don't

And then proceed to go out there and demonstrate exactly why these protests are needed.

It is Trump like in its stupidity. Say you are being falsely accused, then go out and do exactly what you are saying they are falsely accusing you of.

<img src="https://media.giphy.com/media/65os7odbIW6pa/giphy.gif" />

 

[WeAreNDHockey]

Re: Cops 9: You Are What Now?

Yeah... I've been thinking about this, too. Houghton, Hancock, etc. all have police depts... so does Michigan Tech (7,000 people), so does Laurium (2,000) and Village of Calumet (800 people). Meanwhile Houghton Co. runs the sheriff dept and jail for them all, but for actual trouble there are MSP posts 12 miles north in Calumet and 30 miles south in L'Anse. And in case of real, real trouble, a Nat'l Guard armory in Calumet Twp.
We could at least, be trimming some fat here. Even though I know many of these guys and they're good people and all. Do we really need this many overlapping law enforcement agencies?

18,000 separate police agencies in this country. Far, far too many overlaps. 1000s of them should be abolished and their functions migrated to other, appropriate agencies. In the rural Michigan county I grew up in and lived for the better part of my life there are at least 7 separate police agencies that operate within the county (and of course since they derive their power from the state all have full police authority throughout not just the county but the entire state). This also doesn't count any federal law enforcement agencies, all of which have power there as well. All of this for a county with 50,000 people and very little crime.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Cops 9: You Are What Now?

American heroes!

“ JUST IN: Two law enforcement agencies acknowledged Monday that officers patrolling Minneapolis during the recent protests knifed the tires of numerous vehicles parked and unoccupied in at least two locations.”

Per star tribune

Kroll is giving them a parade next week I am sure

 

[WeAreNDHockey]

Re: Cops 9: You Are What Now?

Huh interesting...thanks for the info.

FWIW from what I have read the majority support community policing over city policing so that is what the overall shift would be. I have no idea how that would work but I havent looked into it that much since it has been a day since the announcement. I would prefer if Minneapolis was split up into subsections and you have each community have a police force made up of locals sanctioned by Minneapolis. (though not under the banner of the MPD) You could break it down as "Downtown", "South/Uptown", "North Minneapolis"...etc. The communities are in control.

I think this works better than what is in place now. South Minneapolis needs a different style of policing than North Minneapolis does. Downtown is completely different from both. Trying to police all of them the same way with the same people is a fools errand and we have seen that the cops have no issue mocking certain areas and having a very abhorrent attitude towards the citizens there. (like the MPD cop who was derogatory towards Cedar/Riverside on Facebook for example) It is worth looking into if there is a better way.

Make no mistake, I am still not sure I agree with any of this. I think if I still lived in the city though I might quite a bit.

On another topic I was having a discussion yesterday about all of this and I think this might be the people finally trying to take back their freedom post 9/11. I think people have finally had enough letting their fear embolden anyone from taking away their rights. People ceded a lot after 9/11 in order to feel protected and I just wonder if maybe now they just arent having it anymore. I mean most of the college kids probably were born right around when that happened so all they have seen is an America that allows itself to be under the thumb of authority.

I think this is the very model of community policing. It has been attempted time and again in lots of big cities, but the political will usually wanes and it never gets fully implemented since it takes time.

In some smaller cities I think there has been success. South Bend in the early 1980s tried to implement some of the (then) new "community based policing" ideas. Community Oriented Policing Services -- COPS, get it -- used to be a federal thing (maybe it still is) and departments applied for grants to roll out new initiatives.

At one point South Bend had both a decent police department and decent relationships among police and the community. I was acquainted with a number of South Bend cops (I wouldn't have called any friends, but certainly friendly acquaintances) and liked them. One of them worked Notre Dame hockey games (and basketball games) on his off hours and was both a good cop and a good guy. One of my best friends from school was a cop (and also one of the good ones) and the president of his local Police Officers Association of Michigan chapter.

I didn't always hate cops. As a white, educated middle class male I didn't have much personal reason to.

 

[Deutsche Gopher Fan]

American heroes!

“ JUST IN: Two law enforcement agencies acknowledged Monday that officers patrolling Minneapolis during the recent protests knifed the tires of numerous vehicles parked and unoccupied in at least two locations.”

Per star tribune

Video!

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">A reminder that, as in the 1960s, we are witnessing police riots in many cities. <a href="https://t.co/mCIemjCfnZ">https://t.co/mCIemjCfnZ</a></p>— Tom Sugrue (@TomSugrue) <a href="https://twitter.com/TomSugrue/status/1270084384427855873?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 8, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Kepler]

Re: Cops 9: You Are What Now?

Were it were up to me, Ben, not long.