Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

[Kepler]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

The pipeline goes under the lake and near some burial sites. If there is a spill (and we all know the record of oil companies just ask The Gulf) it could contaminate the water of millions. Plus they are claiming rights under a treaty from 1851.

What claim did the Dildo Revolutionaries have over the land they occupied? Why werent they sprayed with water cannons and shot with rubber bullets and such? They had weapons and were calling for open rebellion, the Sioux are not.

Once again the problem is optics...and it will look 10 times worse if any Vets get hurt protecting the Standing Rock protesters. If North Dakota calls in the National Guard this could get real bad. I am sure though plenty around here will blame the protesters for not "doing it peacefully" when that is what they have done for the majority of this despite the crap the Sheriffs have pulled.

This is a very good post and sums up the situation perfectly. The vets are good optics. Now you have the people we stole the country from and the people who defended the country on the same side against an energy lobby and a crony government. Yeah, I'll take those odds in the court of public opinion.

 

[unofan]

Owning property isn't on many states' criteria list anymore. If it were, I wouldn't have been called in for jury duty twice before I ever purchased my house.

Not to mention we've slowly moved away from the whole "white landowners" standard for pretty much everything. Sometimes I wonder if Joe wants to harken back to the 1850s instead of the 1950s.

 

[joecct]

Not to mention we've slowly moved away from the whole "white landowners" standard for pretty much everything. Sometimes I wonder if Joe wants to harken back to the 1850s instead of the 1950s.

No. Jeebus! I was asking what criteria is used for jury pools. Depending on the criteria, it could explain low minirity (& poor) members on juries.

 

[Wisko McBadgerton]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

What claim did the Dildo Revolutionaries have over the land they occupied? Why werent they sprayed with water cannons and shot with rubber bullets and such? They had weapons and were calling for open rebellion, the Sioux are not.

A difference is that one was on public federal lands and the other keeps going onto private property. Similar to a 1000 protesters in the city park vs the same on the front lawn of your business. In the latter they're interrupting commerce and trespassing on your property and if you (the business owner) call the cops, the cops are compelled by the law to remove the protesters from your property. Especially in this case where it had all been approved and litigated in a federal court.

Another difference is that as the protesters were armed, the cops naturally weren't using rubber bullets in Oregon. They were locked and loaded with live ammo and did in fact, kill one of that group.

I have mixed feelings on this as I don't know enough of the specifics to be accurate in an assessment. I do know the pipeline is to be laid right next to an existing pipeline which was put in with no objection at all, so I question the whole "disturbing the burial grounds" portion of the thing. And it seems clear the Tribe did screw up royally by not voicing their dissent two years ago when they were given every reasonable opportunity to do so according to the court.

I'd think now that it's stopped, the Feds (meaning us) will be sued by the pipeline company as they seem to have crossed all their t's from a legal stand point all along the way and presumably will suffer damage from this reversal by the government.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

I've not seen statistical breakdowns, only when you look at the numbers of the protesters, their general makeup, and then you look at the tribal population, a very small portion of them look to be from the local tribe. Add to that, a couple people I know from out that way have made those very assertions. The protesters are not from ND.

You mean the protesters from the various tribes ( 300 various ones who have traveled from other states) arent from ND...you dont say?

Please dont take offense, but I smell a lot of BS in this post...not intentional but it still doesnt pass the smell test. Just because other tribes are involved with the protest doesnt mean the Standing Rock Tribe doesnt believe in moving the pipeline or support the protest. (especially since they did start it and are there) In fact one has absolutely nothing to do with the other and sounds more like the BS smoke screen Righty Web Sites have been using lately. (again I am not saying you are doing that, just saying it sounds that way) This stuff sounds like the things we would hear from UND fans...

I live in Crystal...lets say there is a Alt-Right...errr...Nazi meeting in East Bumpph****, Wisconsin and a bunch of my fellow Jews (along with some Blacks, Latinos, Gays....etc) decide to travel to join a protest there that doesnt say anything about the protest except that we support the local group. The 300 tribes that have gone to Standing Rock did so AFTER members started a formal protest. (and went to Washington) Sure plenty of the protesters are not from ND.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

A difference is that one was on public federal lands and the other keeps going onto private property. Similar to a 1000 protesters in the city park vs the same on the front lawn of your business. In the latter they're interrupting commerce and trespassing on your property and if you (the business owner) call the cops, the cops are compelled by the law to remove the protesters from your property. Especially in this case where it had all been approved and litigated in a federal court.

Another difference is that as the protesters were armed, the cops naturally weren't using rubber bullets in Oregon. They were locked and loaded with live ammo and did in fact, kill one of that group.

I have mixed feelings on this as I don't know enough of the specifics to be accurate in an assessment. I do know the pipeline is to be laid right next to an existing pipeline which was put in with no objection at all, so I question the whole "disturbing the burial grounds" portion of the thing. And it seems clear the Tribe did screw up royally by not voicing their dissent two years ago when they were given every reasonable opportunity to do so according to the court.

I'd think now that it's stopped, the Feds (meaning us) will be sued by the pipeline company as they seem to have crossed all their t's from a legal stand point all along the way and presumably will suffer damage from this reversal by the government.

If the Sioux claim of the 1851 treaty was correct (I have zero clue I didnt read it) then the Tribal Land would be Federal. (actualy it would be under Tribal Authority I believe)

The Pipeline can sue all they want to but they arent going to get anywhere with it and in reality it will create more headaches than it is worth. They can re-route it again (remember originally it was to go through Bismarck) and probably get a nice tax incentive to take a longer route. They will end up making money in the end if they do it right. oh and they wont look (note I said LOOK) like complete racist tools while doing so.

edit: BTW you realize that you are saying that the authorities didnt attack the violent people who were screaming for rebellion because they were armed but that they attacked the non-violent protesters because they werent armed? Tell me how that makes sense (I am not obviously blaming you for it)

 

[SJHovey]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

I've not seen statistical breakdowns, only when you look at the numbers of the protesters, their general makeup, and then you look at the tribal population, a very small portion of them look to be from the local tribe. Add to that, a couple people I know from out that way have made those very assertions. The protesters are not from ND.

I think it started out local. I think the first protests were last spring and were by local tribe members, perhaps with some tribe members from across the border in South Dakota. From there it attracted a collection of people from across the country, and maybe the world, who joined the protest for a variety of reasons, whether they be Native American sovereignty issues, ecological issues, or maybe just because they like a good protest.

 

[trixR4kids]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

How are the jury lists compiled?

Voter registrations?
Drivers License registrations?
Property records?

If you don't vote, don't have a driver's license, and rent, there's a good chance you won't be picked for a jury pool.

Guess where you'll find people who meet that criteria?

So maybe let's make it harder for people to meet this criteria with redlining and voter ID laws.

Sorry but the fair housing practices and other racial issues caused a lot of this segregation that we see in these cities and now it seems to further benefit white officers who are charged with crimes. You can't honestly be surprised that some see this as a problem.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

I think it started out local. I think the first protests were last spring and were by local tribe members, perhaps with some tribe members from across the border in South Dakota. From there it attracted a collection of people from across the country, and maybe the world, who joined the protest for a variety of reasons, whether they be Native American sovereignty issues, ecological issues, or maybe just because they like a good protest.

I have not been following closely but that jibes with what I have seen, and is probably the lifecycle of any successful protest. "First they ignore, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." SD seems to be moving into the fight phase, now. Typically that's where it all falls apart for TPTB. News stories with nice old ladies getting hauled off to the lockup can still get the sedated TV audience up in arms (unless you can counter it with a "terrorism" or "thug" racial counter-narrative).

 

[Kepler]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

So maybe let's make it harder for people to meet this criteria with redlining and voter ID laws.

Question is what the f-ck was the defense attorney doing during selection. I know Gideon's Army is insanely overburdened, but this seems like a high profile enough case to get resources.

Edit: never mind, I have it completely backwards. It's the prosecution, and I'm not sure they could have done much if the pool really is that skewed. But I wonder whether they gave it the old college try.

 

[unofan]

Question is what the f-ck was the defense attorney doing during selection. I know Gideon's Army is insanely overburdened, but this seems like a high profile enough case to get resources.

Edit: never mind, I have it completely backwards. It's the prosecution, and I'm not sure they could have done much if the pool really is that skewed. But I wonder whether they gave it the old college try.

Most pools are based on driver's licenses and/or voting registrations. It's not uncommon for jury pools to be far more heavily white than the underlying demographics would suggest because whites tend to register to vote more often and are more likely to have a valid license. They're also typically less transient than other groups, meaning their licenses and registrations are more likely to match their current address.

Typically you also can't be a convicted felon, which also disproportionately affects minorities. And has the knock on effect of killing your voter registration too. And if it was a moving violation, there goes your driver's license.

In other words, it's death by 1,000 cuts. Every step knocks out a few extra minorities than whites.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Most pools are based on driver's licenses and/or voting registrations. It's not uncommon for jury pools to be far more heavily white than the underlying demographics would suggest because whites tend to register to vote more often and are more likely to have a valid license. They're also typically less transient than other groups, meaning their licenses and registrations are more likely to match their current address.

In NYC juries seem* to be more heavily black, at least for the trials that show up in say The Post. The fight in jury construction seems to come down to gender rather than race.

* I have absolutely no empirical evidence for this claim. It's something I continue to notice and be surprised by. But of course at this point it may be complete confirmation bias.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Most pools are based on driver's licenses and/or voting registrations. It's not uncommon for jury pools to be far more heavily white than the underlying demographics would suggest because whites tend to register to vote more often and are more likely to have a valid license. They're also typically less transient than other groups, meaning their licenses and registrations are more likely to match their current address.

There may also be an additional reason. If I recall correctly, I saw a news article from South Carolina that said something like 50% of those people summoned for jury duty don't show up. I assume this includes not only those who don't receive it due to a more transient lifestyle, but also people who just ignore it.

 

[Wisko McBadgerton]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

If the Sioux claim of the 1851 treaty was correct (I have zero clue I didnt read it) then the Tribal Land would be Federal. (actualy it would be under Tribal Authority I believe)

The Pipeline can sue all they want to but they arent going to get anywhere with it and in reality it will create more headaches than it is worth. They can re-route it again (remember originally it was to go through Bismarck) and probably get a nice tax incentive to take a longer route. They will end up making money in the end if they do it right. oh and they wont look (note I said LOOK) like complete racist tools while doing so.

edit: BTW you realize that you are saying that the authorities didnt attack the violent people who were screaming for rebellion because they were armed but that they attacked the non-violent protesters because they werent armed? Tell me how that makes sense (I am not obviously blaming you for it)

The treaty has been adjudicated all the way to the Supreme Court and it has been held (in 1980) that the US Government owes the Sioux money. The Sioux haven't picked it up and it's been held in trust since. It's now over a billion dollars. I don't know what further recourse the Sioux can possibly have on that matter. Which is beside the fact that the original treaties state that they must accept roads, forts and utilitarian easements through their lands.

I'd guess the "violent people who were screaming for rebellion" weren't attacked because they were not posing an imminent threat to anyone and were contained. They were all arrested and charged eventually, except for the guy killed. I assume you wouldn't advocate the feds should have just gone in guns blazing anyway?

It's perfectly fine to taze, but not shoot, a naked guy running through the mall slapping people. You also wouldn't shoot an armed guy standing alone in a field screaming, but you would contain him with an armed group until he stopped. You would likely shoot a guy in the mall screaming and pointing a gun at people.

The "non-violent protesters who weren't armed" seems inaccurate. These folks haven't all been just sitting around singing kumbaya and roasting marshmallows on tribal land. In a separate but related incident they burned over a million dollars worth of equipment in Iowa. Everybody assumes a bulldozer sitting there is owned by some evil gigantic corporation so "who cares they can afford it", when in fact it is just as, if not much more, likely it's some small subcontractor's stuff. I'm not coming down on the side of the law's tactics because I don't know what provoked every case, but at the same time, Joe Builder has a right to have his excavator on private property working a legally let contract, left alone. The mob can't just overrun everywhere, set fires, destroy stuff, and harm people. Some measure has to be taken at some point to protect people and property. Those measures perhaps should have been taken by the protesters themselves in at least some of these incidents.

 

[Wisko McBadgerton]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

I'm from near there so I know how Milwaukee is extremely segregated. I can't say I agree with the idea that a police officer who gets charged for a crime in a neighborhood that's 99% black should get an 11-1 white jury, that's bull****. Not to mention it's more like 40% black in the city proper and I never said anything about 90%..

No you didn't say that, I was just trying to understand where you were coming from better, thanks.

I guess the assumption is that a white jury is biased for a white guy and against a black guy. Presumably it follows the thinking is a black jury would be biased in reverse. I guess that's the old "implicit bias" thing Hillary was talking about.

What we the people are mostly shooting for is a group of people that can decide the case based on the evidence presented in court rather than one that tries to balance itself based on skin color, (personally, I find that idea off-putting) or I guess load it with off-setting biases.

I guess if this is really true, the white defendant should get an all-white jury and the black defendant an all-black jury, as the law presumes innocence and is built toward having to prove someone guilty. Some guilty would go free, buy we presumably would lock up even fewer innocents. Or we could match race and victim and get the reverse?

Totally anecdotal, but I was foreman of a very mixed race jury in a vehicular homicide case awhile back. Male, middle aged, Dominican defendant; young white female victim. I couldn't see anywhere where race entered into the deliberations. Everybody was just trying to do their best to figure out what happened and how the law applied.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

The treaty has been adjudicated all the way to the Supreme Court and it has been held (in 1980) that the US Government owes the Sioux money. The Sioux haven't picked it up and it's been held in trust since. It's now over a billion dollars. I don't know what further recourse the Sioux can possibly have on that matter. Which is beside the fact that the original treaties state that they must accept roads, forts and utilitarian easements through their lands.

I'd guess the "violent people who were screaming for rebellion" weren't attacked because they were not posing an imminent threat to anyone and were contained. They were all arrested and charged eventually, except for the guy killed. I assume you wouldn't advocate the feds should have just gone in guns blazing anyway?

It's perfectly fine to taze, but not shoot, a naked guy running through the mall slapping people. You also wouldn't shoot an armed guy standing alone in a field screaming, but you would contain him with an armed group until he stopped. You would likely shoot a guy in the mall screaming and pointing a gun at people.

The "non-violent protesters who weren't armed" seems inaccurate. These folks haven't all been just sitting around singing kumbaya and roasting marshmallows on tribal land. In a separate but related incident they burned over a million dollars worth of equipment in Iowa. Everybody assumes a bulldozer sitting there is owned by some evil gigantic corporation so "who cares they can afford it", when in fact it is just as, if not much more, likely it's some small subcontractor's stuff. I'm not coming down on the side of the law's tactics because I don't know what provoked every case, but at the same time, Joe Builder has a right to have his excavator on private property working a legally let contract, left alone. The mob can't just overrun everywhere, set fires, destroy stuff, and harm people. Some measure has to be taken at some point to protect people and property. Those measures perhaps should have been taken by the protesters themselves in at least some of these incidents.

Even if it is owned by an evil corporation burning it is completely ridiculous. Both sides in various forms have taken this too far but I am going to hold Sheriffs to a higher standard. Their actions have been pretty bad.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

I guess the assumption is that a white jury is biased for a white guy and against a black guy. Presumably it follows the thinking is a black jury would be biased in reverse. I guess that's the old "implicit bias" thing Hillary was talking about.

I can remember this debate going all the way back to the OJ murder trial. That jury had 9 blacks, 2 whites, 1 Hispanic/Latino.

In his subsequent civil trial, there were 8 whites, 1 black, 1 Arabic, 1 mixed race, and 1 Hispanic/Latino.

After the outcome of both trials, there were many charges of a racially-biased jury.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Even if it is owned by an evil corporation burning it is completely ridiculous. Both sides in various forms have taken this too far but I am going to hold Sheriffs to a higher standard. Their actions have been pretty bad.

I've got to disagree with you Handy. I think that all things considered, the Morton County Sheriff's department hasn't handled this too bad. When you take into consideration the fact that someone blew up some sort of explosive device, that at least one protester fired three shots with a .38 handgun, and given the number of protesters, the heated nature of the protest and the length of time that it's gone on, there is no evidence that a sheriff's department deputy ever fired a shot or beat up a protester or anything of that nature. Beyond the spraying of water cannons to soak the crowd, they really haven't done anything to these people other than arrest those they thought violated the law or try to keep order.

 

[trixR4kids]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Totally anecdotal, but I was foreman of a very mixed race jury in a vehicular homicide case awhile back. Male, middle aged, Dominican defendant; young white female victim. I couldn't see anywhere where race entered into the deliberations. Everybody was just trying to do their best to figure out what happened and how the law applied.

I mean ideally it works that way but in this case in SC that's clearly not what happened. How any rational person can see the guy running away as the officer fires and come to the conclusion that the officer's life was in danger and therefore the trigger needed to be pulled in that situation... it's hard to imagine he came to the conclusion for non-race related reasons. Obviously we want a non-biased jury regardless of the demographics that make it up but it's kind of like when companies say "we want the best qualified people" and then end up with a workforce that's 95% white.

 

[trixR4kids]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

there is no evidence that a sheriff's department deputy ever fired a shot or beat up a protester or anything of that nature. Beyond the spraying of water cannons to soak the crowd, they really haven't done anything to these people other than arrest those they thought violated the law or try to keep order.

IDK about that...