Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

[The Rube]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Except it doesnt say "AND" it says "A". You have to misread it to get that context because the two statements dont parallel. That explanation really doesnt hold much water and will not work in defense of the school.

"A smile tomorrow" COULD mean both ways. Again, I admittedly misread it. It COULD mean "(I will have) a smile tomorrow." It COULD mean, "I'm going to shoot black people (with) a smile tomorrow." And the latter could even be misinterpreted (I'm going to shoot black people while I'm smiling). In this day and age, unfortunately, you cannot allow for any misunderstanding whatsoever.

Whatever the intent was, however different people interpreted it, he didn't make the best choice in phrasing. And MTU and the police completely botched the case.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

I dont think he misphrased it at all. Just because you (and they) inferred something that wasnt there doesnt put him at fault. (and certanly doesnt rise to the level of domestic terrorism) It is pretty obvious what he was saying and only a misread of it changes the context in any way. That isnt on him that is on you and them.

There is a reason why the original yik yak was ignored when Grainger sent it to the school, because the intent was obvious. Grainger took out the the last part because it showed there was no malicious intent behind any of it.

Sorry but this guy did and said nothing wrong. (if the details we read in the complaint are true mind you)

 

[The Rube]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

I dont think he misphrased it at all. Just because you (and they) inferred something that wasnt there doesnt put him at fault. (and certanly doesnt rise to the level of domestic terrorism) It is pretty obvious what he was saying and only a misread of it changes the context in any way. That isnt on him that is on you and them.

There is a reason why the original yik yak was ignored when Grainger sent it to the school, because the intent was obvious. Grainger took out the the last part because it showed there was no malicious intent behind any of it.

Sorry but this guy did and said nothing wrong. (if the details we read in the complaint are true mind you)

The stressed part of your post is exactly my point. This is why you (again, unfortunately) have to clarify everything to a T in this day and age, with all the social media, texting, etc. Sometimes it's difficult to determine tone, inflection, etc.

I really don't want to condemn the kid, I really don't. On reading the whole story (as you said, if it's all true), I feel bad I misinterpreted it. However, one must take caution, as sad as it is.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

I just disagree...that sounds too much like victim blaming to me. I would agree with you if he had said what you thought he said (or made it seem like he did which he definitely didnt) because then it can be argued he was saying things the wrong way and it is more open to interpretation. In this case what he said was very straightforward and on point so any misinterpretation is the fault of the reader.

I remember when a rumor circulated back in the day that the band 311 was racist because the 11th letter in the alphabet is K. (3Ks = KKK) Totally stupid obviously false. According to what you are saying they should change their name cause they should have known that could be an interpretation of their name even though they know that isnt what it is about.

Or what about Ozzy Osbourne. According to that line of thinking the people who sued him and attacked him over Suicide Solution are correct because even though the song is not advocating suicide (it is about Bonn Scott drinking himself to death) and he has explained it publicly many times, he should have known kids would listen to the song, misinterpret it and kill themselves.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Sorry but this guy did and said nothing wrong. (if the details we read in the complaint are true mind you)

I think at best the guy is guilty of poor taste, and maybe poor judgment. If he posts something like, "Gonna shoot all the black people.........a smile tomorrow." It's pretty clear what his intent was. He wants people to react something like, "what, he's going to shoot black people?!?!, oh, haha, I get it."

I mean, that's the whole point of the way he typed it, using the periods, isn't it?

Assuming I've read his intent correctly, personally I don't think it's a particularly good idea to make a joke like that, but that's just me. You are going to draw a reaction from someone.

But in the end, he is guilty of extremely poor taste. The person who doctored the photo, on the other hand, should be in for some problems.

 

[The Rube]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

I think at best the guy is guilty of poor taste, and maybe poor judgment. If he posts something like, "Gonna shoot all the black people.........a smile tomorrow." It's pretty clear what his intent was. He wants people to react something like, "what, he's going to shoot black people?!?!, oh, haha, I get it."

I mean, that's the whole point of the way he typed it, using the periods, isn't it?

Assuming I've read his intent correctly, personally I don't think it's a particularly good idea to make a joke like that, but that's just me. You are going to draw a reaction from someone.

But in the end, he is guilty of extremely poor taste. The person who doctored the photo, on the other hand, should be in for some problems.

THIS. ALL THIS.

It's not victim blaming. It was a joke that went bad, and maybe he should re-think how he phrases things in the future.

Not difficult to understand.

 

[Twitch Boy]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

THIS. ALL THIS.

It's not victim blaming. It was a joke that went bad, and maybe he should re-think how he phrases things in the future.

Not difficult to understand.

And that's the thing.

30 years ago a stunt like this got you a sit-down with the Dean, who explained just what you did, turned it into a learning experience, you made a public apology, and you got probation or service with a black student org or something. (I actually thought the actual PROBATION part of the punishment was pretty appropriate.) Now? Witch hunt, expulsion, face all over the news, your name is mud, good luck doing anything with the rest of your life.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

I think at best the guy is guilty of poor taste, and maybe poor judgment. If he posts something like, "Gonna shoot all the black people.........a smile tomorrow." It's pretty clear what his intent was. He wants people to react something like, "what, he's going to shoot black people?!?!, oh, haha, I get it."

I mean, that's the whole point of the way he typed it, using the periods, isn't it?

Assuming I've read his intent correctly, personally I don't think it's a particularly good idea to make a joke like that, but that's just me. You are going to draw a reaction from someone.

But in the end, he is guilty of extremely poor taste. The person who doctored the photo, on the other hand, should be in for some problems.

If that is the case, then all of us should be at risk for the same thing. All of us, yes even you, have posted stuff way worse and in poorer taste than that on open boards.

Sorry I dont even think it was in poor taste.

 

[giwan]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

And that's the thing.30 years ago a stunt like this got you a sit-down with the Dean, who explained just what you did, turned it into a learning experience, you made a public apology, and you got probation or service with a black student org or something. (I actually thought the actual PROBATION part of the punishment was pretty appropriate.) Now? Witch hunt, expulsion, face all over the news, your name is mud, good luck doing anything with the rest of your life.

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loc...-michigan-tech-students-sues-school/89996710/

Shoot them a smile? I don't think you can assume intent and action based on an emoji. Yes in todays age every threat as benign as it is needs to be investigated because if you are wrong JUST ONCE the consequence can be horrendous. Now is he vilified as some terrorist and never enter higher learning again? Hardly the case. Did they not investigate it fully and cover their ***, yeah maybe, for sure could have, SHOULD have, been handled differently.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Except they didnt investigate when it had the emoji...they only investigated after it was doctored. Either they flat out missed it the first time Grainger sent it or they didnt see it as a potential threat.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

If that is the case, then all of us should be at risk for the same thing. All of us, yes even you, have posted stuff way worse and in poorer taste than that on open boards.

Sorry I dont even think it was in poor taste.

Sure, we've all posted politically insensitive or tasteless comments. I'm not sure I'd agree that I've posted something worse than that. But there are certain lines I don't think you should cross, and jokes about shooting black people probably fall across that line.

Let me ask you. What if there was a food critic named Joshua Bernstein who opened up his restaurant review with this comment, "Talk about giving gas to a Jew, I tried the new Burrito Grande at......"

I think he'd catch a ton of criticism for something as tasteless as that, and he should. Same with this guy.

That said, I agree he's not some sort of terrorist or a threat to society. He's basically someone who wrote something in extremely poor taste and should be exposed for it, nothing else.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Now is he vilified as some terrorist and never enter higher learning again? Hardly the case. Did they not investigate it fully and cover their ***, yeah maybe, for sure could have, SHOULD have, been handled differently.

You don't get it. He's been expelled from the school - that's basically an automatic black mark on transferring to any engineering school of comparable repute where he could finish his degree. According to Tech's story, he threatened his fellow students - there's no way any other school of consequence is going to dispute that in this day and age, unless he is exonerated in court. He won't get any kind of admissions/transfer appeal from anyone otherwise.

And fck no, they didn't investigate properly. That much is obvious from the mismatched police reports, and inconsistent media interviews.

 

[giwan]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

You don't get it. He's been expelled from the school - that's basically an automatic black mark on transferring to any engineering school of comparable repute where he could finish his degree. According to Tech's story, he threatened his fellow students - there's no way any other school of consequence is going to dispute that in this day and age, unless he is exonerated in court. He won't get any kind of admissions/transfer appeal from anyone otherwise.

And fck no, they didn't investigate properly. That much is obvious from the mismatched police reports, and inconsistent media interviews.

I get it but if no school accepts him then you have to admit what he did was wrong in todays climate. Emoji or not, if Public Safety sees that comment I think anyone would pick him up. Its some of the after things that may be questionable.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

You want a compromise here? Fine. Let's say he earned one semester off to think about the consequences of what he posted, and then they let him return in good standing, with or without some sort of mark on his permanent record. He can explain the rest to potential employers.

18 months was ridiculous given the circumstances - that's all but telling him to transfer (which again, no school of repute would let a suspended student do, let alone an expelled one). In my mind, and again assuming this is proven to be true in court, the ultimate outrage is that the Dean obviously resented his challenge of the suspension (which would've kept this in the news, giving the school more negative press), and decided then and there to expel him in a deliberate, unilateral act of retaliation, in hopes he would go away and they could finally sweep this mess under the rug. It remains to be seen if that was within her authority, after a panel's decision that allowed him to file the appeal had already been rendered.

 

[The Rube]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Except they didnt investigate when it had the emoji...they only investigated after it was doctored. Either they flat out missed it the first time Grainger sent it or they didnt see it as a potential threat.

What SHOULD have happened is bring him in, clear up the misunderstanding, no harm no foul. Unfortunately all authorities completely screwed the pooch on this, and now the kid's paying for it. It's terrible.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

I get it but if no school accepts him then you have to admit what he did was wrong in todays climate. Emoji or not, if Public Safety sees that comment I think anyone would pick him up. Its some of the after things that may be questionable.

Public safety saw the comment and didnt pick him up. They didnt care until it was doctored. Then after it was investigated the authorities found nothing to charge him with. The school then suspended him (despite dismissing the more serious charges) and when he appealed they expelled him on charges they themselves had already dropped. They screwed the kid over because they made him their poster boy for bad thoughts ad scapegoated for the actions of others on the campus even though he did nothing wrong. They are going to pay dearly for it too.

I dont know how you can possibly defend their actions...even if you read it like Brent did expelling him is beyond Draconian. College campuses used to be havens of free speech and an open market of ideas. Now they are just whiny White Bourgeois Liberals looking for a cause so they can get uppity. Much like the internet they just want to shout down dissent and internet shame/lynch anyone who dares say anything that just might be controversial. George Carlin warned of this and criticized what liberals on campus were becoming in the years before he died. it is only getting worse....

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Honestly, as observed in this thread alone, I think there's the potential for a fair amount of bias, and his only hope of a completely neutral trial is outside of the UP. Even though this got filed in Marquette, what is the chance this gets tried in the Wisconsin Eastern District, Green Bay or Milwaukee Division? This has been a fairly big story in the UP since last November, and it has also been picked up by all of the major news outlets in lower MI at this point, all the way down to Detroit.

 

[The Rube]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Public safety saw the comment and didnt pick him up. They didnt care until it was doctored. Then after it was investigated the authorities found nothing to charge him with. The school then suspended him (despite dismissing the more serious charges) and when he appealed they expelled him on charges they themselves had already dropped. They screwed the kid over because they made him their poster boy for bad thoughts ad scapegoated for the actions of others on the campus even though he did nothing wrong. They are going to pay dearly for it too.

I dont know how you can possibly defend their actions...even if you read it like Brent did expelling him is beyond Draconian. College campuses used to be havens of free speech and an open market of ideas. Now they are just whiny White Bourgeois Liberals looking for a cause so they can get uppity. Much like the internet they just want to shout down dissent and internet shame/lynch anyone who dares say anything that just might be controversial. George Carlin warned of this and criticized what liberals on campus were becoming in the years before he died. it is only getting worse....

Oh, you can say whatever you want, as long as it's what whatever authority you are under agrees with you.

 

[Twitch Boy]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

I think the probation they originally assigned to him (the counseling, impact panel, etc.) was a very fair punishment for what he did. Even if it was a joke, it was in bad taste and did have a huge impact on the university and its environment. The five-oh gave him the scare of his life. Now make this a learning experience for him, make sure he learns Why You Don't Say Those Things, and let him come out of this for the better and get on with his education. Isn't college supposed to be an environment of, you know, learning?

Unfortunately, that got shot to hell when the Dean got a hold of his appeal. All she had to do was uphold the punishment and write a Dale Carnegie letter explaining why this is for his own good. If he goes to court then, Tech can at least point to the disturbance he caused and have a defensible case. Instead she went Class 3 Ice Queen on him.

My at-fault breakdown:

25% Matthew (yeah, you can't say those things where people will hear them even if it is a joke.)
30% VP of Student Affairs (knew he had bogus evidence, continued firing up the witch hunt as if it was correct...kept the snowball rolling.)
0% Public Safety (you see that come across Twitter, bogus or not you gotta go to DEFCON 1...can't fault them here.)
0% Houghton police (investigated, realized they had a steaming pile of Bull Sheet on their hands, dropped charges and handed it back to Tech. Most you could ask for.)
45% Dean (overstepped her powers in reinstating previously dismissed charges. She was the last line of defense to create an amenable solution to this headache, and she chose the option that walked Tech directly into a legal crossfire.)

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

I think the probation they originally assigned to him (the counseling, impact panel, etc.) was a very fair punishment for what he did. Even if it was a joke, it was in bad taste and did have a huge impact on the university and its environment. The five-oh gave him the scare of his life. Now make this a learning experience for him, make sure he learns Why You Don't Say Those Things, and let him come out of this for the better and get on with his education. Isn't college supposed to be an environment of, you know, learning?

Unfortunately, that got shot to hell when the Dean got a hold of his appeal. All she had to do was uphold the punishment and write a Dale Carnegie letter explaining why this is for his own good. If he goes to court then, Tech can at least point to the disturbance he caused and have a defensible case. Instead she went Class 3 Ice Queen on him.

My at-fault breakdown:

25% Matthew (yeah, you can't say those things where people will hear them even if it is a joke.)
30% VP of Student Affairs (knew he had bogus evidence, continued firing up the witch hunt as if it was correct...kept the snowball rolling.)
0% Public Safety (you see that come across Twitter, bogus or not you gotta go to DEFCON 1...can't fault them here.)
0% Houghton police (investigated, realized they had a steaming pile of Bull Sheet on their hands, dropped charges and handed it back to Tech. Most you could ask for.)
45% Dean (overstepped her powers in reinstating previously dismissed charges. She was the last line of defense to create an amenable solution to this headache, and she chose the option that walked Tech directly into a legal crossfire.)

I think you're understating Public "Safety"'s culpability, and I'd be curious as to how 18 months of probation is fair from your point of view, but time will tell.