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Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

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Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

burd said:
Training will not cure racism, that's for sure, but it can help avoid some of these unnecessary killings.

I'm guessing that tighter prehire screening is not a very effective solution, since candidates will just hide their prejudices and departments probably have a hard time finding minimally qualified candidates as it is.
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This is not true. Better hiring practices, perhaps realizing that the military is not the only fertile ground to find cops, can go a long way. Psychological screening can still successfully weed out those most likely to let prejudices severely cloud their actions if it is done rigidly.
 
Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

I would ask people to read this linked article with an open mind.

A coouple of things especially notable to me:
Use-of-force training should also emphasize de-escalation and flexible tactics in a way that minimizes the need to rely on force, particularly lethal force. Police agencies that have emphasized de-escalation over assertive policing, such as Richmond, California, have seen a substantial decrease in officer uses of force, including lethal force, without seeing an increase in officer fatalities
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and:
More comprehensive tactical training would also help prevent unnecessary uses of force. Instead of rushing in to confront someone, officers need to be taught that it is often preferable to take an oblique approach that protects them as they gather information or make contact from a safe distance.
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Too often cops are treating all situations like they do a mass barricaded shooter. Approaching a vehicle with a lone occupant is NOT the same thing as responding to a Columbine like shooting. An immediate, aggressive response to a Columbine situation can save lives (at Columbine the first officers did not enter the school until nearly an hour after the first 9-11 call, as officers and SWAT teams used to be trained, now training is different) but just the opposite is generally true for situations like so many of the unarmed young men who are getting shot.

We don't train our firefighters or airline pilots to react to danger or difficult and unknown situations like police officers are trained. Yet in a structure fire or an airliner engine failure, time and prompt action are also important, and sometimes seconds count. But we train firefighters and pilots in a completely different manner. Act too quickly and disaster can happen. Human beings should be smart enough to figure out a better way to train cops too.
 
Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

This one is a doozy, basic facts of what happened are tough to nail down, every article about it tells a completely different story. But a cop definitely unloaded into the back of an unarmed black man who was on the ground.
http://www.theroot.com/dejuan-guillory-was-unarmed-lying-on-the-ground-when-a-1796731246
https://kadn.com/mamou-burglary-ends-in-officer-involved-shooting-one-dead/
http://penpointnews.com/murder-mamou-la-deputy-executes-father-3/
 
Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

jerphisch said:
This one is a doozy, basic facts of what happened are tough to nail down, every article about it tells a completely different story. But a cop definitely unloaded into the back of an unarmed black man who was on the ground.
http://www.theroot.com/dejuan-guillory-was-unarmed-lying-on-the-ground-when-a-1796731246
https://kadn.com/mamou-burglary-ends-in-officer-involved-shooting-one-dead/
http://penpointnews.com/murder-mamou-la-deputy-executes-father-3/
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I know I often fear for my life when I have a knee in someones back and a gun pointed at him. Of course no jury will convict this criminal...
 
Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Handyman said:
I know I often fear for my life when I have a knee in someones back and a gun pointed at him. Of course no jury will convict this criminal...
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You mean the girlfriend who is charged with attempted murder of an officer, for biting him on the neck as best as I can tell? Pretty sure she is black, so I can see some jail time for her.
 
Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

jerphisch said:
You mean the girlfriend who is charged with attempted murder of an officer, for biting him on the neck as best as I can tell? Pretty sure she is black, so I can see some jail time for her.
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Oh no she is gonna fry...I meant the real criminal the cop.
 
Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

trixR4kids said:
Haven't seen this posted yet I don't think http://www.kare11.com/news/video-shows-mpls-officer-shoot-dogs-in-owners-yard/455375082
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More people will care that he shot a dog with little justification than care about the next unarmed black man a cop shoots. Which, by the way, probably happened while you were browsing USCHO today.

99% of all cops will disagree with this, I'm sure. In my opinion the standards for using lethal force should be the same for a cop as they are for a civilian. Yes a cop may get into a situation where use of force is necessary more often than a civilian, but they allegedly also are professionals trained in deescalation tactics and the proper use of lethal force.

It's patently absurd to think that with 1000s of shootings a year -many of them fatal and many of them targeting unarmed victims -- that only a handful deserve criminal prosecution. On top of the lack of prosecution and the near complete likelihood of acquittal in the rare event they are charged, many cops don't even receive job related sanction when they kill someone. Yes some of the shootings are completely justifiable. Others are simply tragic accidents with no animus on the part of the cop and may have been unavoidable. These events deserve no charges or sanctions of course.

The direction this country is heading is going to look a lot uglier than it already does if people don't wake up. Of course I'm white, educated and I usually wear a tie, so what do I care?
 
WeAreNDHockey said:
More people will care that he shot a dog with little justification than care about the next unarmed black man a cop shoots. Which, by the way, probably happened while you were browsing USCHO today.

99% of all cops will disagree with this, I'm sure. In my opinion the standards for using lethal force should be the same for a cop as they are for a civilian. Yes a cop may get into a situation where use of force is necessary more often than a civilian, but they allegedly also are professionals trained in deescalation tactics and the proper use of lethal force.

It's patently absurd to think that with 1000s of shootings a year -many of them fatal and many of them targeting unarmed victims -- that only a handful deserve criminal prosecution. On top of the lack of prosecution and the near complete likelihood of acquittal in the rare event they are charged, many cops don't even receive job related sanction when they kill someone. Yes some of the shootings are completely justifiable. Others are simply tragic accidents with no animus on the part of the cop and may have been unavoidable. These events deserve no charges or sanctions of course.

The direction this country is heading is going to look a lot uglier than it already does if people don't wake up. Of course I'm white, educated and I usually wear a tie, so what do I care?
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The catch is most cops aren't trained in de-escalation techniques. Many forces view that as unnecessary expense. Use of force training, absolutely, because not following that equals law suits and firings.

There is an anecdote/urban legend about sensors to detect a child left in his or her car seat that parallels this. The sensors have been invented several times over by people after reading stories about kids dying from heat stroke while locked in a car. But the auto manufacturers don't want them because they don't want to be liable in the event the sensor fails. Society as a whole would be better off with the sensors, but the car makers would actually be worse off because then they'd be on the hook for sorting that they currently have no liability for, so they don't do it.

Same kind of thing with de-escalation training. You can't be liable for bad training if you don't offer the training in the first place, especially if it's not industry standard to do so. Society would benefit from cops getting such training, but individual police forces would be worse off.
 
Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

unofan said:
Same kind of thing with de-escalation training. You can't be liable for bad training if you don't offer the training in the first place, especially if it's not industry standard to do so. Society would benefit from cops getting such training, but individual police forces would be worse off.
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That explains the perverse incentive but not why we allow it to become policy. In the latter case the police only exist to serve us, they have no other valid purpose. It is not in our interests to have cops running around in our neighborhood like Dirty Harry as-shats. We control their budgets and their guidance, we decide.

The power dynamic with police departments has become backwards. The department itself is worth squat if it isn't serving its community.
 
Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

I understand what people are saying about training but are they just trained to start killing things the second they feel they're in danger? Cause if that's the current model, which it appears to be, than God help us for however we got here.
 
Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

ScoobyDoo said:
I understand what people are saying about training but are they just trained to start killing things the second they feel they're in danger? Cause if that's the current model, which it appears to be, than God help us for however we got here.
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They are trained, quite properly, that when the time comes to pull the trigger it's to kill. You don't shoot to halt or disarm or wound. Once it has reached that stage, you have entered The End Times.

But they sure don't seem to be trained in any meaningful way to resolve a situation without getting to that point. This is so ubiquitous that it isn't the cops' fault at all, it's their departments or the communities as a whole that give them a gun, pat them on the as-s, and say "so, we're throwing you into harm's way -- good luck out there!" If that's the case, no wonder they start unloading into the first thing they hear on a dark night. It must be terrifying.
 
Kepler said:
They are trained, quite properly, that when the time comes to pull the trigger it's to kill. You don't shoot to halt or disarm or wound. Once it has reached that stage, you have entered The End Times.

But they sure don't seem to be trained in any meaningful way to resolve a situation without getting to that point. This is so ubiquitous that it isn't the cops' fault at all, it's their departments or the communities as a whole that give them a gun, pat them on the as-s, and say "so, we're throwing you into harm's way -- good luck out there!" If that's the case, no wonder they start unloading into the first thing they hear on a dark night. It must be terrifying.
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But they won't admit they're trained to kill. They're trained "to stop the threat." It's just coincidence that to stop the threat, they aim at the center of mass where all the vital organs are located.

Corporate double speak has nothing on the criminal justice system. Just like no modern jail has solitary confinement. But they do have SHUs (special housing units), where inmates are left alone for 23 hours per day, aren't supposed to talk to anyone, and otherwise have no outside contact except for the guards and occasionally their attorneys. But that's not solitary confinement...
 
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Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Kepler said:
the police only exist to serve us, they have no other valid purpose. ..... We control their budgets and their guidance, we decide.

The power dynamic with police departments has become backwards. The department itself is worth squat if it isn't serving its community.
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Um, police departments generally do not exist in order to "serve the community." (except perhaps tangentially)

Ostensibly, they exist to arrest criminals and solve crimes. If, as a result, the community is "served" by these actions, it is a by-product, not an overt purpose.

Implicitly, they exist to protect the rich and powerful from being overrun by rioting mobs when times are hard.
 
Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

FreshFish said:
Um, police departments generally do not exist in order to "serve the community." (except perhaps tangentially)

Ostensibly, they exist to arrest criminals and solve crimes. If, as a result, the community is "served" by these actions, it is a by-product, not an overt purpose.

Implicitly, they exist to protect the rich and powerful from being overrun by rioting mobs when times are hard.
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I understand that the cops are the final resort to protect the enslavement of the poor by the rich, though I am pleasantly surprised even you will admit this.

But yes, the cops don't descend from the heavens, they have a function without which they are at best parasitic and at worst an actual problem. They uphold the laws so that lawful people can go about without being harmed illegally. They also enforce the legal harm inflicted by the wealthy on the poor, hence their status as the praetorian guard of the rich. They are, in other words, domestic soldiers, who do the same thing outside the border.

But the rich were forced to extend the franchise to everyone, hence laws could at least in theory actually protect everyone equally, and part of that would be training the cops to be non-threatening and impartial rather than provocative and biased against the poor. We can actually do that, you and I, well, I anyway, with our votes, and that's what I suggest we aim for.

Part of a just society is having just laws, but part is also having a just process in which state institutions don't perpetuate the systemic harm of inequality. We should aim for that. You can try to keep the cops as guard dogs for the rich -- that's your bag and hey you seem to be winning. But many on my side will actually try to improve things and bring a little sanity to the process. And likely help the cops, too, who under your regime are just an occupying army.
 
Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

FreshFish said:
Um, police departments generally do not exist in order to "serve the community." (except perhaps tangentially).
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So "To serve and protect" is as accurate a slogan as "Fair and balanced"?
 
Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

unofan said:
But they won't admit they're trained to kill. They're trained "to stop the threat." It's just coincidence that to stop the threat, they aim at the center of mass where all the vital organs are located.

Corporate double speak has nothing on the criminal justice system. Just like no modern jail has solitary confinement. But they do have SHUs (special housing units), where inmates are left alone for 23 hours per day, aren't supposed to talk to anyone, and otherwise have no outside contact except for the guards and occasionally their attorneys. But that's not solitary confinement...
Click to expand...

They are trained to shoot at the torso because that is the biggest mass of a person's body, and will most likely stop the threat, since there is less chance of missing the shot. It's basic odds. If they were trained to kill (such as snipers) then they'd be going for head shots.
 
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