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College Hockey amps up war on Canadian major junior....

Re: College Hockey amps up war on Canadian major junior....

NCAA watcher is right in that players getting released from scholarships hurts the NCAA product. Even though it only happens to a small subset of guys, there is the reality that not everyone who is recruited to play college hockey can play at that level, or turns out to be the right fit for a program. Like any competitive enterprise, be it education, sports or employment, those who cannot produce or fit the culture may get weeded out and encouraged to try something else, and that is simply part of life.

That said, most NCAA coaches will continue to honor the scholarships of underperforming players if they do well in school and continue to be a positive worker on the ice and in the dressing room. Very few guys get released only because their hockey ability isn't up to snuff.

A far more insidious factor in the CHL is the trading of non-adult players during the season and instantly uprooting them from their educational and social environments. I can see doing this with adults, but with 16-20 year olds, it seems to be edging very close to a child labor issue. At least colleges don't trade players.
 
Re: College Hockey amps up war on Canadian major junior....

Well UNB will be playing Maine in Orono next Tuesday in a game postponed from January 2. We'll see how that works out ...

But seriously CIS and NCAA hockey are not the same. CIS teams are made up of former Major Junior and Junior A players, so they are older. It is not the normal development path to the NHL, so high draft picks aren't in the CIS (although you'll find the odd third-rounder who didn't get a contract coming out of Junior). Of course teams like UNB as they are built now couldn't play in Hockey East as all but two of their players would be ineligible as they played in the WHL, OHL and QMJHL. But saying that, just talk to Jerry York and he will tell you that UNB now would at least would be competitive in Hockey East. CIS teams will never part of the normal NHL development path because that is what the CHL does in Canada.
 
Re: College Hockey amps up war on Canadian major junior....

A far more insidious factor in the CHL is the trading of non-adult players during the season and instantly uprooting them from their educational and social environments. I can see doing this with adults, but with 16-20 year olds, it seems to be edging very close to a child labor issue. At least colleges don't trade players.

I am not an CHL apologist, and like you the mid-season trades have always bothered me (other than the less than common cases where an Anglophone struggling in a French environment with a Quebec-based team gets traded say to a Q team in the Maritimes where he is back in an English environment or vice versa). We just had a flurry of trades during the Christmas break trading period, some of it happening while players involved were playing for Team Canada at the World Juniors. While as I have said before we in Canada (outside of certain Toronto columnists) consider Junior hockey players to be amateur athletes and not "workers" (I know, there are lots of counter-arguments ...), there is no question that the owners of the CHL teams are striving to make a profit. and make trades accordingly. Yes they want to win, but they also want to go deep into the profitable playoffs.
 
Re: College Hockey amps up war on Canadian major junior....

Ithere is no question that the owners of the CHL teams are striving to make a profit. and make trades accordingly. Yes they want to win, but they also want to go deep into the profitable playoffs.

College programs also want as much revenue as they can generate as well, but they stop short of trading players- that's a pretty gray area between amateurism and professionalism by any reasonable defintion. :eek:
 
Re: College Hockey amps up war on Canadian major junior....

Finally, to the anonymous reputation poster and everyone else here -- sorry about diving into politics/policy in some of my previous posts here, but when some folks start making blanket or ill-informed statements about things Canadian i know something about, the maple syrup starts heating up in my blood. Sorry about that.
:o
 
Re: College Hockey amps up war on Canadian major junior....

I am not an CHL apologist, and like you the mid-season trades have always bothered me (other than the less than common cases where an Anglophone struggling in a French environment with a Quebec-based team gets traded say to a Q team in the Maritimes where he is back in an English environment or vice versa). We just had a flurry of trades during the Christmas break trading period, some of it happening while players involved were playing for Team Canada at the World Juniors. While as I have said before we in Canada (outside of certain Toronto columnists) consider Junior hockey players to be amateur athletes and not "workers" (I know, there are lots of counter-arguments ...), there is no question that the owners of the CHL teams are striving to make a profit. and make trades accordingly. Yes they want to win, but they also want to go deep into the profitable playoffs.

Then there are situations where the player orchestrates a trade, also. For example, ex-Michigan forward Robbie Czarnik's OHL rights were held by Oshawa. He instead elected to play at Michigan (and was "unhappy" the whole time.) "Somehow" his rights were traded to Plymouth- a mere stepping stone from his Michigan home, and Ann Arbor. He then jumped ship midseason and is playing for the Whalers while still attending U-M. Admirable if he finishes, even more if he manages to keep his roster spot with the Whalers. But, that was his choice as opposed to those who skip their NCAA eligibility to go to the CHL and gamble as to whether they can juggle school with their obligation to the CHL- including trades, cuts and injury which voids any commitment on their part to honor school tuition.
 
Re: College Hockey amps up war on Canadian major junior....

No, only the Junior A teams to which they send their players to <s>use steroids</s>, er, gain strength to compete with the 21-24 year olds. You check out the January 10th deadline?

Would love to hear more on this....

That's certainly exploitative...:eek:
 
Re: College Hockey amps up war on Canadian major junior....

In terms of the NCAA coaches and offering full 4 year commitments I was under the impression (from a Real Sports or Outside the Lines story on that scumbag John Calipari's house cleaning at Kentucky this year) that the NCAA actually changed its rules after lobbying from the coaches where offering anything other than a year to year renewal is forbidden. Obviously one hopes that most coaches would honor a 4 year promise other than exceptional circumstances regarding the player as long as they agree to work heard and remain a part of the team, but theres no way that commitment can be set in stone.
 
Re: College Hockey amps up war on Canadian major junior....

I hope its quite clear that CHL has issues. I think, in general, any organization which reaps profits off the labors of youth is somewhat problematic -- whether its Junior Hockey; NCAA athletics (note: hockey is a side-show compared to the profit-to-expense ratios of college football and basketall!); or Disney. And I don't think anyone here is defending the CHL, or the junior hockey system in general, as flawless.

What some of us appear to be saying is that the flaws of the CHL or no different than the flaws of any other junior league --- in Canada, the US, or otherwise. Yet the NCAA has drawn a distinction.

I have to thank Alton for that very insightful letters which he attached. I had not read these letters before and its really pretty interesting. Despite its high-minded sounding rhtoric, this letter comes directly from NCAA D-I leadership via USA Hockey, and -- personally -- it smacks of protectionism and a very real fear of competition.

Perhaps the protectionism is warranted . . . eg., protecting the home-grown US hockey developement system. But the removal of the restrictions against the CHL by the NCAA has nothing to do with youth hockey development in the U.S. These letters are first and foremost neatly-worded manifestos of anti-Canadianism -- which is most acutely felt in one part of the nation . . .

This brings it back to the Minnesota issue. The State -- not just the school. UMinn stills carries probably a disproportionate amount of influence in college hockey. Certainly it carries enormous weight in Minnesota state hockey -- which carries enormous weight with USA Hockey.

And this is not a flame-bomb -- honestly. Most people involved in hockey at any national level understand Minnesota's very very very regionalist opinions as to hockey in the US. And openly hostile toward Canadian hockey players.

This hostility does not exist in Michigan, Ohio, or upstate New York hockey -- which has historically always worked closely with Canada. Nor is hockey development in New England similarly afflicted with this anti-Canadian bias.

But in Minnesota, the anti-Canadianism has created a very profitable and successful hockey model. By preaching the evils of Canadians and Canadian hockey at an early age, Minnesota players stay at home, play through the well-developed and well-coached youth system in their own home region. They play high school hockey. They do not travel extensively outside Minnesota -- and rarely into the depth of Canada. There is a significant lack of corporate Club hockey (the backbone of Michigan youth hockey, for instance).

So what does this mean? It means that for many years, Minnesotans carried a disproportionate control of NCAA hockey. NCAA hockey long ago drew the battle lines between itself and the CHL. NCAA hockey long ago made its faustian deal with the Minnesota Hockey Mafia (Jeff Jackson quote) to work feverishly to keep top-end Canadians out of the NCAA -- which by default protects top-end Minnesotans from being relegated.

The CHL is full of top-end Canadians who are forever barred from the NCAA. And this makes Minnesota Hockey very very happy indeed.

This is not about US players flooding to Canada, boy and girls. This is about Canadian players flooding into the US.
 
Re: College Hockey amps up war on Canadian major junior....

Well, getting money is getting paid ;)

The most pernicious aspect of the NCAA though is the uncertainty of their scholarship program. This is a product of two factors: first, the 20 year old rule, that allows (and ultimately incentivizes) teams to get older, and demand immediate impact players. This then means coaches want their freshmen older, so they start warehousing them into junior hockey. If you're a 16 year old, do you want to go to the CHL and a spot at 17, or hope to get an NCAA scholarship four years from now at age 20?

The second is the lack of enforcement about the scholarship. Players are easily booted, and even though this impacts only 10-20% of the players, the coaches' screwing of scholarships creates a bad impression. If coaches want a 17 year old, offer him a 4 year promise, not a 1 year deal that we may honor in name only.
Where do you get this 10-20% number? I can't imagine that this truly effects 150-250 students? That number seems awfully high.
 
Re: College Hockey amps up war on Canadian major junior....

Where do you get this 10-20% number? I can't imagine that this truly effects 150-250 students? That number seems awfully high.

While the number of kids having full rides pulled each year is probably very small, there are probably quite a few guys who get partial scholarship reductions based on roster managememt and performance.

For example, Player A is a recruited walk on who gets no scholly money his freshman year, then has a good year and earns a half-ride for his sophomore year. Then going into Player A's junior year, Coach needs to make more room for a highly recruited player that surprisingly wants to come, so he reduces four of his current guys on half-rides to quarter rides to open up a full ride for his prized pupil.
 
Re: College Hockey amps up war on Canadian major junior....

This is not about US players flooding to Canada, boy and girls. This is about Canadian players flooding into the US.
I believe this is absolutely correct.

American kids that receive scholarships will stay in US after college and will presumably help the US economy. International students will by and large, return home with their degree and most likely prosper.

The NCAA isn't going to go out of its way to load its sports teams with foreign players. Obviously the NCAA isn't going to violate the Civil Rights Act and bar foreign athletes, but the point is valid.

An Athletic Scholarship can be worth $200,000 (tax free) to the student and should yield the average recipient $1,000,000 in extra income over a lifetime. It stands to reason that it would benefit the USA to give as many of these opportunities as possible to American kids.
 
Re: College Hockey amps up war on Canadian major junior....

While the number of kids having full rides pulled each year is probably very small, there are probably quite a few guys who get partial scholarship reductions based on roster managememt and performance.

For example, Player A is a recruited walk on who gets no scholly money his freshman year, then has a good year and earns a half-ride for his sophomore year. Then going into Player A's junior year, Coach needs to make more room for a highly recruited player that surprisingly wants to come, so he reduces four of his current guys on half-rides to quarter rides to open up a full ride for his prized pupil.
But tell me how that is an issue? If you're getting moved around like that, there never was a guarantee that you would get a half-ride the whole time...I know the numbers constantly change for most players but 20% getting negatively effected by this seems pretty high?
 
Re: College Hockey amps up war on Canadian major junior....

But tell me how that is an issue? If you're getting moved around like that, there never was a guarantee that you would get a half-ride the whole time...I know the numbers constantly change for most players but 20% getting negatively effected by this seems pretty high?
We are getting into murky water because the one aspect of college hockey that virtually no fans know or understand is the scholarship levels of the players. Everyone assumes that every player is on a full-ride and gets everything paid for. Clearly this is not the case.

I've heard that Wisconsin gives 90% scholarships so that they can squeeze another two scholarship players on the roster. With cheap in-state tuition this works for them.

DU supposedly gives out 18 full rides and no partials. With expensive tuition this is a clever strategy. The kids who don't receive athletic scholarships are eligible for academic aid, financial aid & loans.

Minnesota is famous for giving out partial scholarships that ratchet up each year as the player develops. With low in-state tuition and players that are willing to take a half-ride with the Gophers instead of a full ride from Duluth, the Gophers can field a 28 man roster.

The Ivies don't offer athletic scholies, but give out need based aid.

Point being, every school deals with their schollies in a different manner. Some schools don't have to offer the same package to land a prized recruit. Maybe they have better facilities (North Dakota), better coaches, closer location to the parents, some years they don't have any schollies left....
 
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Re: College Hockey amps up war on Canadian major junior....

We are getting into murky water because the one aspect of college hockey that virtually no fans know or understand is the scholarship levels of the players. Everyone assumes that every player is on a full-ride and gets everything paid for. Clearly this is not the case.

I've heard that Wisconsin give 92% scholarships so that they can squeeze another two scholarship players on the roster. With cheap in-state tuition this works for them.

DU supposedly gives out 18 full rides and no partials. With expensive tuition this is a clever strategy. The kids who don't receive and athletic scholarships are eligible for academic aid, financial aid & loans.

Minnesota is famous for giving out partial scholarships that ratchet up each year as the player develops. With low in-state tuition and players that are willing to take a half-ride with the Gophers instead of a full ride from Duluth, the Gophers can field a 28 man roster.

The Ivies don't offer athletic scholies, but give out need based aid.

At the division 1 level, you can give academic scholarships and athletic scholarships to the same player and not have the academic count towards the 18 full equivalents...

edit:
I do know from conversations I've had with coaches that most people would be surprised with the actual breakdown on a roster...full rides aren't as common as you might think
 
Re: College Hockey amps up war on Canadian major junior....

I hope its quite clear that CHL has issues. I think, in general, any organization which reaps profits off the labors of youth is somewhat problematic -- whether its Junior Hockey; NCAA athletics (note: hockey is a side-show compared to the profit-to-expense ratios of college football and basketall!); or Disney. And I don't think anyone here is defending the CHL, or the junior hockey system in general, as flawless.

What some of us appear to be saying is that the flaws of the CHL or no different than the flaws of any other junior league --- in Canada, the US, or otherwise. Yet the NCAA has drawn a distinction.

I have to thank Alton for that very insightful letters which he attached. I had not read these letters before and its really pretty interesting. Despite its high-minded sounding rhtoric, this letter comes directly from NCAA D-I leadership via USA Hockey, and -- personally -- it smacks of protectionism and a very real fear of competition.

Perhaps the protectionism is warranted . . . eg., protecting the home-grown US hockey developement system. But the removal of the restrictions against the CHL by the NCAA has nothing to do with youth hockey development in the U.S. These letters are first and foremost neatly-worded manifestos of anti-Canadianism -- which is most acutely felt in one part of the nation . . .

This brings it back to the Minnesota issue. The State -- not just the school. UMinn stills carries probably a disproportionate amount of influence in college hockey. Certainly it carries enormous weight in Minnesota state hockey -- which carries enormous weight with USA Hockey.

And this is not a flame-bomb -- honestly. Most people involved in hockey at any national level understand Minnesota's very very very regionalist opinions as to hockey in the US. And openly hostile toward Canadian hockey players.

This hostility does not exist in Michigan, Ohio, or upstate New York hockey -- which has historically always worked closely with Canada. Nor is hockey development in New England similarly afflicted with this anti-Canadian bias.

But in Minnesota, the anti-Canadianism has created a very profitable and successful hockey model. By preaching the evils of Canadians and Canadian hockey at an early age, Minnesota players stay at home, play through the well-developed and well-coached youth system in their own home region. They play high school hockey. They do not travel extensively outside Minnesota -- and rarely into the depth of Canada. There is a significant lack of corporate Club hockey (the backbone of Michigan youth hockey, for instance).

So what does this mean? It means that for many years, Minnesotans carried a disproportionate control of NCAA hockey. NCAA hockey long ago drew the battle lines between itself and the CHL. NCAA hockey long ago made its faustian deal with the Minnesota Hockey Mafia (Jeff Jackson quote) to work feverishly to keep top-end Canadians out of the NCAA -- which by default protects top-end Minnesotans from being relegated.

The CHL is full of top-end Canadians who are forever barred from the NCAA. And this makes Minnesota Hockey very very happy indeed.

This is not about US players flooding to Canada, boy and girls. This is about Canadian players flooding into the US.



Well articulated, Lakerblue. Minnesota carries the big stick in USA Hockey, and always has, and is fiercely protectionist for good reason. Minnesota has a wonderful hockey culture - a model that many Minnesotans would like to see replicated across the USA. Mariucci and his minions built a strong youth system feeding a strong high school system feeding directly into the Gopher program, which has since expanded to other in-state colleges, and more recently, US junior programs. Minnesota was able to build this initially because they had the natural ice advantage over the rest of America, which then also translated into more community rinks/high school rinks. Hockey became "The" winter sport in Minnesota because the infrastructure was right there to support it, and communities embraced hockey as integral to community identity, which fed the growth of high school hockey and community pride.

In the rest of the United States, hockey developed on more a for-profit model vs a true community model, since natural ice and plentiful rinks were simply not available. High school hockey outside Minnesota became quite limited to primarily private schools, due to cost and access. In place of high school hockey, a pay model took over -- travel team youth hockey, private school hockey and junior hockey took up the developmental slack so these non-Minnesota places could keep up.

For schools like Denver and CC with no native talent pools, recruiting Canadians was the only way to be viable and compete with Minnesota in the early years. Mariucci saw that as a huge threat to his state model, and refused to play Denver for years in the 1950, 60s into the 1970s. The WCHA fractured over this issue, and eventually behind heavy Minnesota pressure, Major Junior A players were barred from the NCAA in 1980.

No one can deny that without Minnesota, USA Hockey would never have been able to grow to what it is today. That state has made more of a contribution to American hockey than any other state. The only issue I have with Minnesota is that the development model is perfect for them, but it may not be perfect for other American places that will never have the infrastructure.

I would love to see less protectionist policies in American hockey. Great players should be able to compete anywhere they wish, and that would keep the pressure on all programs at all levels to keep improving. Closing the borders and opening roster spots only to Americans would severly devalue our product, as Americans playing against only Americans would cheat our players from honing their skills against good players from other places.
 
Re: College Hockey amps up war on Canadian major junior....

Swami,

They don't and didn't have outdoor ice in Maine, Massachusetts, Vermont, New Hampshire, Wisconsin, or Michigan? :confused:

If they did, why did Minnesota have a natural advantage over those other places for the growth of a particular system?
 
Re: College Hockey amps up war on Canadian major junior....

Swami,

They don't and didn't have outdoor ice in Maine, Massachusetts, Vermont, New Hampshire, Wisconsin, or Michigan? :confused:

If they did, why did Minnesota have a natural advantage over those other places for the growth of a particular system?

Maine - They are all related and don't have teeth
Massachusetts - The Kennedy's stole all the hockey money to buy booze
Vermont - Spilled maple syrup all over the ice and it severely slowed players down
New Hampshire - Who the hell cares
Wisconsin - Do you really need to ask? It's Wisconsin
Michigan - Players constantly being hit with stray bullets from a Detroit drive-by
 
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Re: College Hockey amps up war on Canadian major junior....

Swami,

They don't and didn't have outdoor ice in Maine, Massachusetts, Vermont, New Hampshire, Wisconsin, or Michigan? :confused:

If they did, why did Minnesota have a natural advantage over those other places for the growth of a particular system?


Sure the other states had natural ice, but not nearly to the same extent as Minnesota. Minnesota has more reliable winter weather than those other places and had way more natural ice in the early years of the sport's development. The community rinks in Minnesota were an outgrowth of natural ice, and as in Canada, the community rink became the cornerstone/gathering place of the community. Minnesota has always had a hockey infrastucture advantage over the rest of the country, and they built a community model that leverages that advantage. You can't blame them for making the best of their advantage - and as a result, a true community hockey culture developed there. That model was simply not replicatable outside of Minnesota, because the infrastucture was not there to support it, and still isn't.
 
Re: College Hockey amps up war on Canadian major junior....

For the most part, using a CHL education package and going to the CIS means that a player has abandoned his hope of playing professional hockey (I am sure that their are exceptions, scouts fill find talent where ever it exists). Where as with the NCAA route it is just another developmental pathway to pro hockey, the difference is that the player doesn't have to chose between playing pro hockey and getting an education.

I'm sure that the best CIS teams are better then the bottom end NCAA teams, but no way are they on he same level as the top 10 or 15 teams. Doesn't me they can't win, just that they won't very often. You had better not start spewing results from early season exhibition games to try and prove your statement, because we all know that they team that wins the preseason is always the best team.

Most CIS players do go on to have pro careers in the minors and Europe and as their talent level increases, you will begin to see more CIS players in the NHL as well. We are not talking about the bottom of the barrel type players here, they are talented and would make a positive contribution to the NCAA.

I would not be so sure that Alberta and U.N.B. are inferior to any NCAA program and they might win far more than you think.

We are getting into murky water because the one aspect of college hockey that virtually no fans know or understand is the scholarship levels of the players. Everyone assumes that every player is on a full-ride and gets everything paid for. Clearly this is not the case.


We all know that D-1 teams are allowed to give out a total of 18 full scholarships. Schools are free to break down those scholys as they see fit. One college coach told me that on average there are only 10 full ride players on any given team with the rest being on partials.

College programs also want as much revenue as they can generate as well, but they stop short of trading players- that's a pretty gray area between amateurism and professionalism by any reasonable defintion

Many players in the CHL have no trade clauses and only with their permission can they be sent to another team. Now the NCAA could be on the high ground here and state "we would never uproot a young player from his comfortable environment for purely profit motives" but of course this would be a lie since they have no issues what so ever in recruiting players who participate in Junior leagues where trades are a fact of life.
 
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