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Chatham University — The Steps to Improvement
- Thread starter nyi19
- Start date
posttopost2
New member
Re: Chatham University — The Steps to Improvement
Re: Chatham University — The Steps to Improvement
Time, Patience and a good recruiting class.
Re: Chatham University — The Steps to Improvement
Time, Patience and a good recruiting class.
Re: Chatham University — The Steps to Improvement
Re: Chatham University — The Steps to Improvement
Saw some good things from coaches this weekend. Passionate and really wanting the team to do well. Hopefully the fact that they've been so low for so long won't hurt them forever. Gotta get a couple of good players in there to get the ball rolling. Maybe the new coaches help that out.
Re: Chatham University — The Steps to Improvement
Saw some good things from coaches this weekend. Passionate and really wanting the team to do well. Hopefully the fact that they've been so low for so long won't hurt them forever. Gotta get a couple of good players in there to get the ball rolling. Maybe the new coaches help that out.
posttopost2
New member
Re: Chatham University — The Steps to Improvement
Re: Chatham University — The Steps to Improvement
Also, a positive attitude (hay no one is calling for Plymouth State to pack it in and they have only had one win in their history).
Re: Chatham University — The Steps to Improvement
Also, a positive attitude (hay no one is calling for Plymouth State to pack it in and they have only had one win in their history).
THE Icemom
Registered User
Re: Chatham University — The Steps to Improvement
Re: Chatham University — The Steps to Improvement
Having had a daughter who played and graduated from Chatham, I think consistancy is necessary. Changing coaches every two to three years does not help the program. Each coach has inherited a class, recruited a class or two and poof, they're gone. My daughter played three years there and had two different coaches with two completely different styles. Yes, it may be painful to watch Chatham lose year after year but at some point, with a strong coach at the helm, things will turn around, games will be won, and recruiting will improve. I think those who use the excuse that "it's an all girls school" need to look at the turn around that has happened at St Catherines. They too are an all girls school and are currently 4-0. Big difference, Brad Marshall is starting his sixth season as the coach. Chatham is on their third coach in 5 years.
Just my two cents...
Re: Chatham University — The Steps to Improvement
Having had a daughter who played and graduated from Chatham, I think consistancy is necessary. Changing coaches every two to three years does not help the program. Each coach has inherited a class, recruited a class or two and poof, they're gone. My daughter played three years there and had two different coaches with two completely different styles. Yes, it may be painful to watch Chatham lose year after year but at some point, with a strong coach at the helm, things will turn around, games will be won, and recruiting will improve. I think those who use the excuse that "it's an all girls school" need to look at the turn around that has happened at St Catherines. They too are an all girls school and are currently 4-0. Big difference, Brad Marshall is starting his sixth season as the coach. Chatham is on their third coach in 5 years.
Just my two cents...
Re: Chatham University — The Steps to Improvement
Re: Chatham University — The Steps to Improvement
Retention in a staff that wants to succeed is the key. Do they want to get out and recruit hard, or just go after average to below average kids so they have numbers? Are they willing to cut loose some kids who just get in the way, and at the same time get the support of administration when those kids/parents call and email ripping the coach apart? Its going to be a joint effort at Chatham, hopefully everyone's on board. St. Kate's is a good story, they are now 5-1 on the season.
Re: Chatham University — The Steps to Improvement
Retention in a staff that wants to succeed is the key. Do they want to get out and recruit hard, or just go after average to below average kids so they have numbers? Are they willing to cut loose some kids who just get in the way, and at the same time get the support of administration when those kids/parents call and email ripping the coach apart? Its going to be a joint effort at Chatham, hopefully everyone's on board. St. Kate's is a good story, they are now 5-1 on the season.
Re: Chatham University — The Steps to Improvement
Re: Chatham University — The Steps to Improvement
On this point we agree completely. St Kates didn't get to 18 wins overnight. It takes time and stability and support from the school, and it certainly doesn't hurt that St. Kate's is located in Minnesota where there is tons of local hockey. Chathams situation is even tougher because of their geographic location, and the league that they plan in which makes the consistency issue all the more important.
Say what you will but they were on the right track. Had they stuck with it things would be continuing to move forward. You add Campbell, McNaughton, Keuchle, Frank, Rattle and the recruits who were coming to Chatham that ended up going to other schools to the roster that is there now (plus getting Jenna Cosham healthy...when she finally plays for Chatham this year she'll be one of their top 2 forwards) and you have a team that I guarantee you is at 10 wins or more instead of the 5 they have had the last 2 years. That is progress.
Now they may some day move forward again, and we all hope that they do sooner rather than later, but in the short term they have set the program back to about where it was when Manchester took over. For Evans' sake I'm sure he hopes they give him more of a chance.
Re: Chatham University — The Steps to Improvement
On this point we agree completely. St Kates didn't get to 18 wins overnight. It takes time and stability and support from the school, and it certainly doesn't hurt that St. Kate's is located in Minnesota where there is tons of local hockey. Chathams situation is even tougher because of their geographic location, and the league that they plan in which makes the consistency issue all the more important.
Say what you will but they were on the right track. Had they stuck with it things would be continuing to move forward. You add Campbell, McNaughton, Keuchle, Frank, Rattle and the recruits who were coming to Chatham that ended up going to other schools to the roster that is there now (plus getting Jenna Cosham healthy...when she finally plays for Chatham this year she'll be one of their top 2 forwards) and you have a team that I guarantee you is at 10 wins or more instead of the 5 they have had the last 2 years. That is progress.
Now they may some day move forward again, and we all hope that they do sooner rather than later, but in the short term they have set the program back to about where it was when Manchester took over. For Evans' sake I'm sure he hopes they give him more of a chance.
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Re: Chatham University — The Steps to Improvement
Re: Chatham University — The Steps to Improvement
Every staff wants to succeed and recruits hard. I don't think you can make a valid claim that Manchester or even Wintrup only went after below average players. Recruiting at Chatham is a tough gig, especially with where the program was...but it can obviously be done and players like Bancroft-Short, Campbell, Rattle and McNaughton among others show that.
As you mentioned in the 2nd part of the post...it's the administration standing by the staff that has to happen. When you build a program kids get left behind or are unhappy with their role. Whereas with established teams most kids come in young and work their way up to more playing time as they get older, the reverse happens in these rebuilding programs. Kids come in and play more right away than they do as the team gets better as seasons go by....on one hand they want to be on a better team, but on the other hand...not if it means less ice time for them. Some players handle it maturely, some don't. Some parents handle it maturely, some don't. Some stick with it, some quit. Some will run their mouth to anyone and everyone who will listen and stretch and shape the truth to fit their needs.
When coaches don't have the support of their administration...and that goes beyond just the AD and on to the higher ups it is a huge struggle to be successful no matter what the coaches say or do for the 2 or 3 years they are allowed to do their jobs before they find someone else to do it.
Re: Chatham University — The Steps to Improvement
Every staff wants to succeed and recruits hard. I don't think you can make a valid claim that Manchester or even Wintrup only went after below average players. Recruiting at Chatham is a tough gig, especially with where the program was...but it can obviously be done and players like Bancroft-Short, Campbell, Rattle and McNaughton among others show that.
As you mentioned in the 2nd part of the post...it's the administration standing by the staff that has to happen. When you build a program kids get left behind or are unhappy with their role. Whereas with established teams most kids come in young and work their way up to more playing time as they get older, the reverse happens in these rebuilding programs. Kids come in and play more right away than they do as the team gets better as seasons go by....on one hand they want to be on a better team, but on the other hand...not if it means less ice time for them. Some players handle it maturely, some don't. Some parents handle it maturely, some don't. Some stick with it, some quit. Some will run their mouth to anyone and everyone who will listen and stretch and shape the truth to fit their needs.
When coaches don't have the support of their administration...and that goes beyond just the AD and on to the higher ups it is a huge struggle to be successful no matter what the coaches say or do for the 2 or 3 years they are allowed to do their jobs before they find someone else to do it.
MICZamboni
Mr. Know It All
Re: Chatham University — The Steps to Improvement
Re: Chatham University — The Steps to Improvement
I was here at Mercyhurst when they started their program years ago and I can say this statement is absolutely correct. Now Mike Sisti has been the only HC at Mercyhurst but when you have the support he has, only good things will happen. I don't know what kind of support, or lack there of, Chatham is getting, but if you are going through coaches every two to three years, something ain't right in my opinion. You can find girls that can and will play if they know you have stability. They will figure it out during visits.
I wish the Chatham team much luck and success but I can't see that happening if they don't get enough support from the Admin.
Re: Chatham University — The Steps to Improvement
I was here at Mercyhurst when they started their program years ago and I can say this statement is absolutely correct. Now Mike Sisti has been the only HC at Mercyhurst but when you have the support he has, only good things will happen. I don't know what kind of support, or lack there of, Chatham is getting, but if you are going through coaches every two to three years, something ain't right in my opinion. You can find girls that can and will play if they know you have stability. They will figure it out during visits.
I wish the Chatham team much luck and success but I can't see that happening if they don't get enough support from the Admin.
Re: Chatham University � The Steps to Improvement
Re: Chatham University � The Steps to Improvement
First, let me say that everyone here has valid points and I agree completely. The reality is that this school is in Pittsburgh and not Minnesota. That the Chatham administration has historically allowed the inmates (players) to run the asylum. I hope that has changed but the fact is that Manchester was DOING HER JOB and the children didn't like it. Discipline sucks when you think you (former goalie) are bigger than the team. She recruited good players who were better than the ones she had and was building a program successfully.
Another obstacle that Chatham faces is scheduling. No out of conference teams have interest in playing this team. Too far, too costly, not competitive. So unless, for the time being, someone needs a cupcake win.....I see a very short schedule for this team. I am not trying to be harsh, just realistic.
Finally, what happened to hiring a coach with experience in womens college hockey who has built recruiting relationships and has an eye for talent? Why did he have to leave his club men's program....was there smoke? I wish the girls luck and admire their stick to it attitude. But they are just one injured goalie away from imploding.
Re: Chatham University � The Steps to Improvement
First, let me say that everyone here has valid points and I agree completely. The reality is that this school is in Pittsburgh and not Minnesota. That the Chatham administration has historically allowed the inmates (players) to run the asylum. I hope that has changed but the fact is that Manchester was DOING HER JOB and the children didn't like it. Discipline sucks when you think you (former goalie) are bigger than the team. She recruited good players who were better than the ones she had and was building a program successfully.
Another obstacle that Chatham faces is scheduling. No out of conference teams have interest in playing this team. Too far, too costly, not competitive. So unless, for the time being, someone needs a cupcake win.....I see a very short schedule for this team. I am not trying to be harsh, just realistic.
Finally, what happened to hiring a coach with experience in womens college hockey who has built recruiting relationships and has an eye for talent? Why did he have to leave his club men's program....was there smoke? I wish the girls luck and admire their stick to it attitude. But they are just one injured goalie away from imploding.
posttopost2
New member
Re: Chatham University � The Steps to Improvement
Re: Chatham University � The Steps to Improvement
Re: Chatham University � The Steps to Improvement
Maybe he left his old team because he wanted a challange? How come there has to be smoke? Coach of the year for two years when he coached club at RMU (sorry mistype) - did he HAVE to leave his men's team or are you just saying that?
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Re: Chatham University � The Steps to Improvement
Re: Chatham University � The Steps to Improvement
You mean club coach at RMU, right?
Re: Chatham University � The Steps to Improvement
You mean club coach at RMU, right?
Re: Chatham University � The Steps to Improvement
Re: Chatham University � The Steps to Improvement
Plattburgh/Elmira/RIT head coaches = zero experience with women's hockey before taking over. They've done ok.
Utica/Oswego/Buffalo head coaches = a lot of women's experience. UC has been up and down but competitive. Oswego and Buffalo have been bad and under achieved.
Potsdam = not sure if he had any coaching experience before this
Cortland = This one confuses me because Cortland is a strong athletic school in all their sports.
Neumann/Chatham = TBD. But change was needed in both places.
Your theory of needing women's experience doesn't seem to work in the ECAC West.
Re: Chatham University � The Steps to Improvement
Plattburgh/Elmira/RIT head coaches = zero experience with women's hockey before taking over. They've done ok.
Utica/Oswego/Buffalo head coaches = a lot of women's experience. UC has been up and down but competitive. Oswego and Buffalo have been bad and under achieved.
Potsdam = not sure if he had any coaching experience before this
Cortland = This one confuses me because Cortland is a strong athletic school in all their sports.
Neumann/Chatham = TBD. But change was needed in both places.
Your theory of needing women's experience doesn't seem to work in the ECAC West.
posttopost2
New member
Re: Chatham University � The Steps to Improvement
Re: Chatham University � The Steps to Improvement
Re: Chatham University � The Steps to Improvement
I agree.
Re: Chatham University � The Steps to Improvement
Re: Chatham University � The Steps to Improvement
This is really not a fair comparison to make because these were programs that were already established and had great profile and reputation in the hockey community and have phenomenal support within their own athletic department. Whatever they need, they can get. If there is a situation where they need the administration to support them, it's done. It's different taking over a program with the challenges (a few of which have been brought up in this thread) of a school like Chatham and even some of the others in the conference who face the obvious financial and geographical issues, as well as uphill battles overcoming past reputation as well as battles overcoming their own athletic department.
Why? I know some people felt that Neumann was a team that grossly underachieved in years past. Ok. Fair enough. But why was change needed at Chatham?
Manchester walked into an awful situation with about 10 players, half of whom could hardly skate, at a school that gave her program no financial support. They have no rink, they have no locker room, they have trouble scheduling games. There is little to no local talent. They had a league that was on the verge of trying to get rid of them because every game was 15-0. Manchester brought in players who could play at this level and won 10 games over 2 seasons. Not a national championship by any means or measure, but after 6 years of winless teams it was something to be proud of. It was progress. They had about half of what they needed to really compete in terms of manpower. They were getting there. They had I believe the 3 leading scorers in the history of the program by the time their sophomore years had ended. In Campbell and McNaughton they had the first players to be recognized by their conference at the end of a season.
If there was change needed it was in the administration who failed to support their coach. That allowed a small group of the "inmates" referenced above to quit the team mid year, intimidate their teammates, and tell grandiose stories of how they were wronged to everyone who would give them an ear... and ultimately drive a good coach and the core of their young team out of town.
10 wins in two years is nothing to most teams. I'm sure if you asked, Manchester would have admitted they could have done more to win a few more games. But I'm willing to bet if you polled the leagues coaches on what they thought of the job she did in the situation she was put in they would tell you flat out that she did a great job and that the administration at Chatham made a huge mistake to let her go the way they did.
That isn't an indictment on Evans and it doesn't mean he can't also do a good job. But it also doesn't mean that the change that needed to be made at Chatham was the one that actually got made. Unfortunately the higher ups are still the higher ups and they will still pull the AD's puppet strings.
Til that changes....it's an uphill battle to say the least.
Re: Chatham University � The Steps to Improvement
This is really not a fair comparison to make because these were programs that were already established and had great profile and reputation in the hockey community and have phenomenal support within their own athletic department. Whatever they need, they can get. If there is a situation where they need the administration to support them, it's done. It's different taking over a program with the challenges (a few of which have been brought up in this thread) of a school like Chatham and even some of the others in the conference who face the obvious financial and geographical issues, as well as uphill battles overcoming past reputation as well as battles overcoming their own athletic department.
Why? I know some people felt that Neumann was a team that grossly underachieved in years past. Ok. Fair enough. But why was change needed at Chatham?
Manchester walked into an awful situation with about 10 players, half of whom could hardly skate, at a school that gave her program no financial support. They have no rink, they have no locker room, they have trouble scheduling games. There is little to no local talent. They had a league that was on the verge of trying to get rid of them because every game was 15-0. Manchester brought in players who could play at this level and won 10 games over 2 seasons. Not a national championship by any means or measure, but after 6 years of winless teams it was something to be proud of. It was progress. They had about half of what they needed to really compete in terms of manpower. They were getting there. They had I believe the 3 leading scorers in the history of the program by the time their sophomore years had ended. In Campbell and McNaughton they had the first players to be recognized by their conference at the end of a season.
If there was change needed it was in the administration who failed to support their coach. That allowed a small group of the "inmates" referenced above to quit the team mid year, intimidate their teammates, and tell grandiose stories of how they were wronged to everyone who would give them an ear... and ultimately drive a good coach and the core of their young team out of town.
10 wins in two years is nothing to most teams. I'm sure if you asked, Manchester would have admitted they could have done more to win a few more games. But I'm willing to bet if you polled the leagues coaches on what they thought of the job she did in the situation she was put in they would tell you flat out that she did a great job and that the administration at Chatham made a huge mistake to let her go the way they did.
That isn't an indictment on Evans and it doesn't mean he can't also do a good job. But it also doesn't mean that the change that needed to be made at Chatham was the one that actually got made. Unfortunately the higher ups are still the higher ups and they will still pull the AD's puppet strings.
Til that changes....it's an uphill battle to say the least.
THE Icemom
Registered User
Re: Chatham University — The Steps to Improvement
Re: Chatham University — The Steps to Improvement
"Manchester walked into an awful situation with about 10 players, half of whom could hardly skate, at a school that gave her program no financial support"
I am sure glad that those players who got ECAC honors (player of the week, goalie of the week, etc) were amongst those who could skate. yes they were short of players, had a good amount of recruits that year, several are still on the team. Obviously it wasn't that bad, Coach Manchester took the job.
Re: Chatham University — The Steps to Improvement
"Manchester walked into an awful situation with about 10 players, half of whom could hardly skate, at a school that gave her program no financial support"
I am sure glad that those players who got ECAC honors (player of the week, goalie of the week, etc) were amongst those who could skate. yes they were short of players, had a good amount of recruits that year, several are still on the team. Obviously it wasn't that bad, Coach Manchester took the job.
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Re: Chatham University — The Steps to Improvement
Re: Chatham University — The Steps to Improvement
What? You are blending two years together. She didn't inherit the team with those players on it. She was hired at the end of summer and played the first season with the team she inherited. It wasn't until her second season that they brought in the large class that consisted of players like Campbell, McNaughton, and Bancroft-Short.
Regardless, just because she took the job doesn't mean that the situation was good or that the program was getting even an iota of support. Perhaps they promised changes, or perhaps Manchester had her own reasons. You'd have to ask her. But the fact she took the job on it's own doesn't mean anything.
Re: Chatham University — The Steps to Improvement
What? You are blending two years together. She didn't inherit the team with those players on it. She was hired at the end of summer and played the first season with the team she inherited. It wasn't until her second season that they brought in the large class that consisted of players like Campbell, McNaughton, and Bancroft-Short.
Regardless, just because she took the job doesn't mean that the situation was good or that the program was getting even an iota of support. Perhaps they promised changes, or perhaps Manchester had her own reasons. You'd have to ask her. But the fact she took the job on it's own doesn't mean anything.
Re: Chatham University — The Steps to Improvement
Re: Chatham University — The Steps to Improvement
IceMom: Did it occur to you that Manchester taking the Chatham job was just as simple as: She was a coach who loved her sport. Simple!
WIrinkrat....some great, factual, truthful and detailed posts today.
RIT Fan.....time for a history lesson regarding the ECAC-W coaches.
Platty: Coach Houle became Head Coach when the original coach left the school. He was arguably the best asst in mens D3 hockey and this was a promotion giving him the opportunity to run his own show. He has done that exceptionally well and with class.
Elmira/RIT: Both former mens assistants who inherited incredibly talented teams and have ridden the coattails of their predecessors. Both programs have continued to grow and maintain their histories of success.
Utica: Coach Clauson has worked hard, recruited fairly well to a school whose academics are not stellar, has an off campus rink in a depressed city.
Oswego/Buffalo State: Both are former D1 womens assistants at Cornell. Dillon is still building a relatively new program who has become more competitive in each season. Burke at Buff State still is looking for his recruiting nitch and has taken small strides toward being competitive day in and day out.
Potsdam: I think he was the rink manager prior to becoming the head coach. No womens coaching experience.
Cortland: Yes, I agree, this is a mystery hire. Was a successful mens coach at SUNY-Morrisville but left the team when they became a full fledged varsity program. No womens coaching experience and is not getting the job done at this level.
Neumann: Not sure this school needed an overhall as others have implied. They were simply in a tough league but did have some consistency issues last year. Again, new coach has no womens coaching experience and time will tell here.
Chatham.......see all the above posts on this thread.
Yes.........experience in the womens game is very important.
Re: Chatham University — The Steps to Improvement
IceMom: Did it occur to you that Manchester taking the Chatham job was just as simple as: She was a coach who loved her sport. Simple!
WIrinkrat....some great, factual, truthful and detailed posts today.
RIT Fan.....time for a history lesson regarding the ECAC-W coaches.
Platty: Coach Houle became Head Coach when the original coach left the school. He was arguably the best asst in mens D3 hockey and this was a promotion giving him the opportunity to run his own show. He has done that exceptionally well and with class.
Elmira/RIT: Both former mens assistants who inherited incredibly talented teams and have ridden the coattails of their predecessors. Both programs have continued to grow and maintain their histories of success.
Utica: Coach Clauson has worked hard, recruited fairly well to a school whose academics are not stellar, has an off campus rink in a depressed city.
Oswego/Buffalo State: Both are former D1 womens assistants at Cornell. Dillon is still building a relatively new program who has become more competitive in each season. Burke at Buff State still is looking for his recruiting nitch and has taken small strides toward being competitive day in and day out.
Potsdam: I think he was the rink manager prior to becoming the head coach. No womens coaching experience.
Cortland: Yes, I agree, this is a mystery hire. Was a successful mens coach at SUNY-Morrisville but left the team when they became a full fledged varsity program. No womens coaching experience and is not getting the job done at this level.
Neumann: Not sure this school needed an overhall as others have implied. They were simply in a tough league but did have some consistency issues last year. Again, new coach has no womens coaching experience and time will tell here.
Chatham.......see all the above posts on this thread.
Yes.........experience in the womens game is very important.
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Re: Chatham University — The Steps to Improvement
Re: Chatham University — The Steps to Improvement
Cortland coach has been involved with USA Girls hockey for
several years while coaching at MOrrisville.
Potsdam Coach has been an Asst. with Elmira Men's and
Head Coach at North Adams State Men's team
and agree, the others mentioned had somewhat successful
programs already or at least programs ready to commit
to excellence.
Re: Chatham University — The Steps to Improvement
Cortland coach has been involved with USA Girls hockey for
several years while coaching at MOrrisville.
Potsdam Coach has been an Asst. with Elmira Men's and
Head Coach at North Adams State Men's team
and agree, the others mentioned had somewhat successful
programs already or at least programs ready to commit
to excellence.
Re: Chatham University — The Steps to Improvement
Re: Chatham University — The Steps to Improvement
Cortland program is a mystery
they get new players every year, maybe not the best recruits, but not the worse either.
But outcome is still the same. no scoring anyone have answers.
Re: Chatham University — The Steps to Improvement
Cortland program is a mystery
they get new players every year, maybe not the best recruits, but not the worse either.
But outcome is still the same. no scoring anyone have answers.