Ccha 2010-2011

[Jeff_Jackson_for_Pres.]

Re: Ccha 2010-2011

...Cam Fowler who backed out on ND last year and went to Windsor. He passed on a 30k education...

It's almost $50,000 this year (though that's everything). He passed on a scholarship worth nearly a quarter of a million dollars. Granted, if he makes it in the NHL, he could make that much in half a season, but professional sports is no guarantee for a lifetime of security, whereas any degree from Notre Dame, even in tiddlywinks, is security.

You're correct, sadly, that it's too often the (misleading) case. Have you thought about asking Paul Kelly for a job at College Hockey, Inc.?

 

[Twisted Wrister]

Re: Ccha 2010-2011

London draws 10,000+ some nights and have signed would be colleges to contracts of over $100,000. Go to school, if it's not a good fit transfer or then go over to the OHL. Burt once you sign that contract they got you, no turning back, other options gone.

 

[redhawkman10]

Re: Ccha 2010-2011

London draws 10,000+ some nights and have signed would be colleges to contracts of over $100,000. Go to school, if it's not a good fit transfer or then go over to the OHL. Burt once you sign that contract they got you, no turning back, other options gone.

You sure about that? I have never seen nor heard of contracts like that in the OHL, that seems like an absurd number.

It's almost $50,000 this year (though that's everything). He passed on a scholarship worth nearly a quarter of a million dollars. Granted, if he makes it in the NHL, he could make that much in half a season, but professional sports is no guarantee for a lifetime of security, whereas any degree from Notre Dame, even in tiddlywinks, is security.

You're correct, sadly, that it's too often the (misleading) case. Have you thought about asking Paul Kelly for a job at College Hockey, Inc.?

Ha would be nice.

He can make the NHL whether he goes to the "O" or Notre Dame, so that argument is mute. And you are absolutely correct a waterboarding degree from Notre Dame would get you further than a Masters in business from half the college hockey schools. ( being sarcastic of course ) You just really wonder what kind of supporting cast these kids have. Are they that undisciplined to attend class? Do they not want the responsibility of attending a prestigous university? If the answer to either of those are yes then they have no chance of being successful in the NHL either. If anything being a collegiate hockey player prepares you more for life in the NHL and teaches you balance. The OHL may prepare you for the hockey aspect but, IMO, doesn't teach you all you need. You may play more games in major junior but all it does is teach you about hockey. The OHL could care less about your life skills, they would tell you otherwise but proof is in the pudding, but the college game teaches you life skills, gives you a broader education, as well as teaches you hockey and playes against great competition.

I know I am saying a lot that everyone already knows, yet it still happens. Makes you scratch your head as to who these kids have around them and the ego's some of them have.

 

[redeagle]

Re: Ccha 2010-2011

rhm at College Hockey, Inc.? Oh boy.

It could have been the Swami's thread, but somewhere recently I read about the compensation in the OHL (or maybe more broadly in the CHL). rhm, I don't think those big numbers are considered "contracts" (maybe they are), but I got the impression they were more like off the books/under the table payments, and they go only to the elite players. I am sure someone on here will know how it works and approximately what the numbers are.

 

[Jeff_Jackson_for_Pres.]

Re: Ccha 2010-2011

rhm at College Hockey, Inc.? Oh boy.

You just really wonder what kind of supporting cast these kids have. Are they that undisciplined to attend class? Do they not want the responsibility of attending a prestigous university? If the answer to either of those are yes then they have no chance of being successful in the NHL either. If anything being a collegiate hockey player prepares you more for life in the NHL and teaches you balance. The OHL may prepare you for the hockey aspect but, IMO, doesn't teach you all you need. You may play more games in major junior but all it does is teach you about hockey. The OHL could care less about your life skills, they would tell you otherwise but proof is in the pudding, but the college game teaches you life skills, gives you a broader education, as well as teaches you hockey and playes against great competition.

I rest my case.

You sure about that? I have never seen nor heard of contracts like that in the OHL, that seems like an absurd number.

Ask Coach Jackson about that. *wonders how that defamation lawsuit brought by the OHL against him is going...*

 

[redhawkman10]

Re: Ccha 2010-2011

I rest my case.



Ask Coach Jackson about that. *wonders how that defamation lawsuit brought by the OHL against him is going...*

When you think about it, and it may not be the case but just how it seems, a lot of these guys who do this come from the USNTDP. USA hockey needs to do a better job of keeping these guys at home and honoring their committment. They should be able to make it part of the players committment to the development program. Especially since education plays a key role in their development program. Also should be a way to disqualify guys who jump to the OHL from playing at the World Juniors. ( Won't happen just thinking outside the box ). Just think that the USNTDP should do a better job at mandating that somehow they go to college.

 

[redhawkman10]

Re: Ccha 2010-2011

rhm at College Hockey, Inc.? Oh boy.

It could have been the Swami's thread, but somewhere recently I read about the compensation in the OHL (or maybe more broadly in the CHL). rhm, I don't think those big numbers are considered "contracts" (maybe they are), but I got the impression they were more like off the books/under the table payments, and they go only to the elite players. I am sure someone on here will know how it works and approximately what the numbers are.

Don't worry I would still keep you involved as my advisor...

 

[Arpod]

Re: Ccha 2010-2011

When you think about it, and it may not be the case but just how it seems, a lot of these guys who do this come from the USNTDP. USA hockey needs to do a better job of keeping these guys at home and honoring their committment. They should be able to make it part of the players committment to the development program. Especially since education plays a key role in their development program. Also should be a way to disqualify guys who jump to the OHL from playing at the World Juniors. ( Won't happen just thinking outside the box ). Just think that the USNTDP should do a better job at mandating that somehow they go to college.

Having watched the USNTDP up close for a decade, I believe the reason players from the program forego college completely for the CHL (Ryan Borque, Beau Schmitz, Emmerson Etem, Jimmy Sharrow, Peter Muller etc.), de-commit before matriculating (Tinordi, Fowler, Campbell, A Czarnik [maybe?] etc.) or leave after one or two years for the CHL (Robbie Czarnik, Adam Pineault the list is long) is either:

1) They never have been held accountable to perform up to academic standards that will translate to success (or even adequacy) at the college level, and they either know it up front or figure it out quickly once they get to college

or

2) The company they keep has convinced them that they are 'golden, a lock for the show, the greatest ever, $hiza don't stink, can do no wrong and your talent would be wasted in college, CHL is the quickest path to the show...'

There is also the 'do something incredibly selfish/stupid/felonious and have to leave' situation (another unfortunately long list that includes JJfP's favorite ex-Irish forward... )

The thing is, these reasons also apply to non-NTDP kids of the same caliber/talent, though we do not necessarily hear about it as often because they are generally not in the limelight quite as much as the USA kids. With respect to the goals of the program, don't kid yourself: it is there to develop hockey players, and the end game is to put teams on the ice that win in international competition. Period. Education outside of hockey-related concepts (training, strategy, skills enhancement, etc.) is not a point of emphasis. While your suggestions make sense from a 'develop the whole player and support US hockey development all the way through the college game' point of view, the reality is it is all about winning and, at the individual player level, making $$$$ (and family advisors will ALWAYS push the elite players to go the CHL route 'cause that is where they say the $$$$ starts...).

 

[Twisted Wrister]

Re: Ccha 2010-2011

Just think that the USNTDP should do a better job at mandating that somehow they go to college.

I would think the NHL would be open to guys staying in school for two or three years. I don't know how the USNTDP would go about enforcing a mandate. I just don't see the OHL ever agreeing to anything along those lines.

 

[pinch]

Re: Ccha 2010-2011

They should be able to make it part of the players committment to the development program. Especially since education plays a key role in their development program. Also should be a way to disqualify guys who jump to the OHL from playing at the World Juniors. ( Won't happen just thinking outside the box ). Just think that the USNTDP should do a better job at mandating that somehow they go to college.

It is not USA Hockey's job.....and what do you mean by "Especially since education plays a key role in their development program"....that they go to HS?

 

[redeagle]

Re: Ccha 2010-2011

Arpod, that's interesting about academics and the NTDP. I know you are not generalizing about all NTDP kids and Miami has not had a lot of program kids (until recently), but the ones they have gotten stayed four years and presumably graduated. Some were outstanding students (Mercier, for example). It may be the type of kid Miam recruits in general and from the NTDP (Mercier, Davis, Pomaranski, Hustead, Vaive (off the top of my head), but they have been four year types and graduated. Vaive, obviously, will be a senior this year. Also, things may be changing, so it will be interesting to see if that holds up in the future.

 

[Jeff_Jackson_for_Pres.]

Re: Ccha 2010-2011

.....and what do you mean by "Especially since education plays a key role in their development program"....

I may be wrong, but I took it to mean creating a well-rounded, knows how to time manage, exposed to new concepts, short term/long term goal setting kinda development. The skills that college hones.

 

[redeagle]

Re: Ccha 2010-2011

This, and the CHL vs. NCAA debate, got me thinking about the percentage of NCAA players who graduate and also play in the NHL. My argument has always been you can play college hockey, get an education (often at a great school), have the college "experience" (often overlooked), form life-long bonds on *and* off the ice, graduate, and still play in the NHL. And that is the culture Miami has built. If you look at the players who played in the NHL since, say, 2000 from Miami, here is what you find, at least from my recollection:

Ryan Jones, stayed four years, graduated
Dan Boyle, stayed four years, graduated
Andy Greene, stayed four years, graduated
Kevyn Adams, stayed four years, graduated
Randy Robitaille, left after two years, did not graduate
Todd Rohloff, stayed four years, graduated
Mike Glumac, stayed four years, graduated
Pat Leahy, stayed four years, graduated
Justin Mercier, stayed four years, graduated
Alec Martinez, stayed three years, high gpa, but has not yet finished (probably will)

That's eight out of the ten Miami NHLers since 2000 who graduated and one more who probably will to make it nine out of ten (sometime soon, I hope). Some of those guys do not have a lot of NHL time yet (Mercier, Martinez) and a couple did not have much time in the show (Rohloff, Glumac) making their degrees all the more important, IMO.

It's true that Miami has not had a lot of high picks, which helps (only Adams was a first-rounder) and that some of the most successful Miami grads were undrafted (Boyle, Greene).

I don't know what the percentages are at other schools and I also know the times are changing, but clearly Miami has shown you can have both the degree and the NHL.

For Miami fans, if you go back to Al Chevrier (graduated) Rich Shulmistra (graduated), and Brian Savage (did not graduate) the picture does not change a lot. I can't remember off the top of my head who else played in the NHL from the "old days."

 

[redhawkman10]

Re: Ccha 2010-2011

Having watched the USNTDP up close for a decade, I believe the reason players from the program forego college completely for the CHL (Ryan Borque, Beau Schmitz, Emmerson Etem, Jimmy Sharrow, Peter Muller etc.), de-commit before matriculating (Tinordi, Fowler, Campbell, A Czarnik [maybe?] etc.) or leave after one or two years for the CHL (Robbie Czarnik, Adam Pineault the list is long) is either:

1) They never have been held accountable to perform up to academic standards that will translate to success (or even adequacy) at the college level, and they either know it up front or figure it out quickly once they get to college

or

2) The company they keep has convinced them that they are 'golden, a lock for the show, the greatest ever, $hiza don't stink, can do no wrong and your talent would be wasted in college, CHL is the quickest path to the show...'

There is also the 'do something incredibly selfish/stupid/felonious and have to leave' situation (another unfortunately long list that includes JJfP's favorite ex-Irish forward... )

The thing is, these reasons also apply to non-NTDP kids of the same caliber/talent, though we do not necessarily hear about it as often because they are generally not in the limelight quite as much as the USA kids. With respect to the goals of the program, don't kid yourself: it is there to develop hockey players, and the end game is to put teams on the ice that win in international competition. Period. Education outside of hockey-related concepts (training, strategy, skills enhancement, etc.) is not a point of emphasis. While your suggestions make sense from a 'develop the whole player and support US hockey development all the way through the college game' point of view, the reality is it is all about winning and, at the individual player level, making $$$$ (and family advisors will ALWAYS push the elite players to go the CHL route 'cause that is where they say the $$$$ starts...).

Good stuff.

I may be wrong but the kids in the USNTDP have to maintain certain academic standards since they are all high school kids. However the logic that the OHL is the fast track to the NHL has been proven mute. There have been plenty of guys come to college for a year or two or three and immediately gone to the NHL. And you are correct it does apply to the non USNTDP kids but those kids are considered the cream of the crop and are more high profile. Trust me I am not kidding myself with the end goal of the overall program. And while USA hockey and the NCAA are two seperate bodies you would think they would want the best for each kid as a whole. Maybe this will change with Danton Cole being apart of the program and knowing what the college game has to offer. I am not nieve but if USA hockey is going to have a high profile program like this they should do a better job of 1. preparing these kids to be successfull on and off the ice and 2. giving them the proper guidance about all parties involved.

I would think the NHL would be open to guys staying in school for two or three years. I don't know how the USNTDP would go about enforcing a mandate. I just don't see the OHL ever agreeing to anything along those lines.

Why would the OHL even be involved in that? They are their own seperate entity and really wouldn't have a say in anything the NCAA and NHL worked out.

It is not USA Hockey's job.....and what do you mean by "Especially since education plays a key role in their development program"....that they go to HS?

Read above.

 

[redhawkman10]

Re: Ccha 2010-2011

Guys from the 2009-2010 Media guide of the USNTDP:

In 1996, USA Hockey launched a revolutionary new initiative called the National Team
Development Program, based in Ann Arbor, Mich. Entering its 13th season of play in
2009-10, the goal of this full-time development program is to prepare student-athletesunder the age of 18 for participation on U.S. National Teams and success in their future
hockey careers. Its efforts focus not only on high-caliber participation on the ice, but
creating well-rounded individuals off the ice.The program is composed of two squads - the U.S. National Under-18 and Under-17
Teams. The Under-17 Team competes in the United States Hockey League and also
participates in three international events annually. The U.S. National Under-18 Team’s
schedule includes games against NCAA Division I and III opponents, contests vs. USHL
teams, as well as competition in three international tournaments.

I highlighted two key points that make my argument on the "mission" of the program. However they are not following through with that with so many of their gradutes skipping college for the OHL. They even have an academic mentor, so academics seem to be a big part of the program as well.

 

[Arpod]

Re: Ccha 2010-2011

Arpod, that's interesting about academics and the NTDP. I know you are not generalizing about all NTDP kids and Miami has not had a lot of program kids (until recently), but the ones they have gotten stayed four years and presumably graduated. Some were outstanding students (Mercier, for example). It may be the type of kid Miami recruits in general and from the NTDP (Mercier, Davis, Pomaranski, Hustead, Vaive (off the top of my head), but they have been four year types and graduated. Vaive, obviously, will be a senior this year. Also, things may be changing, so it will be interesting to see if that holds up in the future.

The points emphasized in your post tell the tale, my friend. The kids that spend time in the NTDP all have two things in common: they are by most (but not all) accounts the among most talented hockey players their age in the country, and they have (generally) focussed significant time and effort on the activities that got them to where they are, that is, hockey training in all its manifestations (not academics). Some are good students, some are great students, some are horrendous students who really do not care about school at all (one kid I know sent homework via computer to his parents to do while he was in the program). Most do OK in school because that is what is required to allow them to play. And, as you alluded to in your post, colleges get the quality of student they recruit. Not many kids from the program go to Harvard or Yale because not many have the academic basis to get in to those schools. Miami has had good luck with student athletes staying because they recruited that type of kid. By way of comparison, Michigan recruits kids from the program knowing that many will not stay due to their high draft status. Some do (Summers for example) but many don't. They try to account for this in their recruiting.

 

[pinch]

Re: Ccha 2010-2011

Leaving for the OHL especially after 2 years in the NTDP is not anti USA... the goal of the program is to train players and win international evnts---not to send kids to college. As far as school, I think most OHL high schoolers miss fewer days than the NTDP

 

[IrishHockeyFan]

Re: Ccha 2010-2011

The points emphasized in your post tell the tale, my friend. The kids that spend time in the NTDP all have two things in common: they are by most (but not all) accounts the among most talented hockey players their age in the country, and they have (generally) focussed significant time and effort on the activities that got them to where they are, that is, hockey training in all its manifestations (not academics). Some are good students, some are great students, some are horrendous students who really do not care about school at all (one kid I know sent homework via computer to his parents to do while he was in the program). Most do OK in school because that is what is required to allow them to play. And, as you alluded to in your post, colleges get the quality of student they recruit. Not many kids from the program go to Harvard or Yale because not many have the academic basis to get in to those schools. Miami has had good luck with student athletes staying because they recruited that type of kid. By way of comparison, Michigan recruits kids from the program knowing that many will not stay due to their high draft status. Some do (Summers for example) but many don't. They try to account for this in their recruiting.

Won't name names but one recent alum of the USNTDP who bailed on his commitment to Notre Dame was allegedly very ill-suited to the academic rigors of college, especially at an institution with a reputation of requiring student-athletes to take the first part of that descriptor every bit as seriously as the second. So much so that one person I spoke with was surprised both that Notre Dame gave him a second look, and he was OK'd by admissions. Whatever the USNTDP SAYS about academics, it is obvious they are most concerned with the hockey part of their mission.

Those US kids that do well in school do so because they come from family backgrounds where they are expected to do well in school, for whom a college degree is worth pursuing and whose parents will stay on top of their grades. Some of the others, well...

So true. Sadly I am seeing more and more young people, from all walks of life, who see education as nothing more than a waste of their time at best. Especially among those who excel (or think they do) at athletics. Too many people in society today have become truly delusional about the value of higher education, in both tangible and intangible aspects, and again, I see this far too often in athletes.

 

[redhawkman10]

Re: Ccha 2010-2011

But, no where in there does it mention "education" or "college". It does however mention "success in their future hockey careers". You're very naive if you think that the US staff gives anything more than a CYA look at grades and academics...talk to any kid there, ask how many times they meet with this "academic mentor"...

Those US kids that do well in school do so because they come from family backgrounds where they are expected to do well in school, for whom a college degree is worth pursuing and whose parents will stay on top of their grades. Some of the others, well...

Easy Joe, I am far from Nieve. And I posted a small sample. They do mention education and college in their as well.

Were kind of off topic, I think everyone knows the true goal of the USNTDP. But they try and get you to think they make it a point of emphasis as they should. They even go into detail about the school the kids attend.

Point is the College game in a lot of aspects is a better option than the OHL, and these kids are being either misinformed or have their priorities mixed up. The USNTDP says their goal is to help shape these kids off the ice just as much as on the ice. I don't see the harm in trying to get things set up to where these kids go to college. But it goes far beyond just the USNTDP, I just used them as an example because they are the place that the cream of the crop of American Hockey. And it is rather annoying that the top development program for USA hockey has a lot of players go to canada instead of American Universities. I know USA Hockey and the NCAA are seperate entities but they should both get on the same page.

 

[Jeff_Jackson_for_Pres.]

Re: Ccha 2010-2011

Easy Joe, I am far from Nieve.

I'm sorry rhm10, but I absolutely can't resist this:

nieve is Spanish for snow.

Now back to the regularly scheduled debate...