Campaign 2016 - It's never too late to start all over again!

[Handyman]

Re: Campaign 2016 - It's never too late to start all over again!

There is no non-aligned center. There are lefties who vote, lefties who don't, righties who vote, and righties who don't. Bernie gets more lefties excited enough to vote. It's no more complex than that.

But if Bernie is not the nominee the lefties arent going to vote just cause he was in the primary. I wont vote when HRC gets the nomination because I dont support her.

Sure, the lefties that are on the fence might be called to action to vote in primaries but once the inevitable happens they go right back on the fence because HRC is too well known. We all know who she is and what masters she serves and there is no point in really caring about it.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Campaign 2016 - It's never too late to start all over again!

Just keep track of how you vote in the next 3 or 4 elections.

I absolutely used to think there were undecideds and independents, and that I was one of them. There aren't, and I wasn't, I just hadn't figured it out.

Voting is not rational, it's tribal.

I am an undecided independent. (and always will be) I support Sanders not because he is a Dem but because of what he has to say. If he ran under any party I would vote for him.

There are GOPers I would vote for as well, but not a single one has more than .00001% of ever making it out of the primaries alive.

You have spent too much time "inside politics" and if you take a step back you will see there are plenty of people that can be swayed...problem is why waste money swaying us when you can burn it sucking up to New York and California. Basic accounting...

You watch Bill Maher listen to him when he talks about touring. He tours the South (Red States) quite a bit and they love him. The reason why is in the cities it is more purple than blue. Go after the cities and you have a chance. Obama got that and did better in many states than he should have because of it. There are lots of people that want someone to support but cant find them in the current 2 party dreck.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Campaign 2016 - It's never too late to start all over again!

But if Bernie is not the nominee the lefties arent going to vote just cause he was in the primary. I wont vote when HRC gets the nomination because I dont support her.

Sure, the lefties that are on the fence might be called to action to vote in primaries but once the inevitable happens they go right back on the fence because HRC is too well known. We all know who she is and what masters she serves and there is no point in really caring about it.

I know what you are saying, but I think on balance Bernie helps us in giving genuine liberalism a fair hearing during the nomination process. Hillary would love to be unopposed so the contradiction between her mouth emissions concerning inequality and too big to fail on one hand and her servitude to the Bonfire of the Vanities' Masters of the Universe on the other remains hidden. Bernie will draw that out and force her to commit to a responsible position.

Plus, as we've seen again and again, the more Democrats talk about liberal positions, the better they do. They are very slow to do it because it angers their rich donors and breaks the Gentlemen's Agreement among the wealthy and their lapdog pundits and other lackeys that we won't talk about specific plans for restoring progressive taxation and eliminating corporate welfare and offshore tax shelters. The more we can force candidates to commit to specific measures to roll back the upwards transfer of wealth, the better for the general election (not to mention, you know, the country).

 

[Handyman]

Re: Campaign 2016 - It's never too late to start all over again!

I know what you are saying, but I think on balance Bernie helps us in giving genuine liberalism a fair hearing during the nomination process. Hillary would love to be unopposed so the contradiction between her mouth emissions concerning inequality and too big to fail on one hand and her servitude to the Bonfire of the Vanities' Masters of the Universe on the other remains hidden. Bernie will draw that out and force her to commit to a responsible position.

Plus, as we've seen again and again, the more Democrats talk about liberal positions, the better they do. They are very slow to do it because it angers their rich donors and breaks the Gentlemen's Agreement among the wealthy and their lapdog pundits and other lackeys that we won't talk about specific plans for restoring progressive taxation and eliminating corporate welfare and offshore tax shelters. The more we can force candidates to commit to specific measures to roll back the upwards transfer of wealth, the better for the general election (not to mention, you know, the country).

But she wont man and even if she does she will sound disingenuous. She is a corporate shill, a Wall Street floozy that is a liberal in sheeps clothing and everyone knows it. Normally I would agree with you but HRC is too known a commodity for anyone to buy she will see the light and go running left of center. If tomorrow gay rights or immigration fell out of favor she would flip flop so fast Mitt Romney and John Kerry would stand up and applaud!

It will be nice to see true liberalism in the primaries and Bernie can debate with the best of them. The second he concedes though HRC will go full pragmatic again and put us all into a coma.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Campaign 2016 - It's never too late to start all over again!

But she wont man and even if she does she will sound disingenuous. She is a corporate shill, a Wall Street floozy that is a liberal in sheeps clothing and everyone knows it. Normally I would agree with you but HRC is too known a commodity for anyone to buy she will see the light and go running left of center. If tomorrow gay rights or immigration fell out of favor she would flip flop so fast Mitt Romney and John Kerry would stand up and applaud!

It will be nice to see true liberalism in the primaries and Bernie can debate with the best of them. The second he concedes though HRC will go full pragmatic again and put us all into a coma.

This is of course my fear, which is why HRC is, to put it mildly, not my first choice. But it's what we've got right now. We do not have a viable liberal presidential contender. Paul Wellstone is not walking through that door, or if he is it's going to freak everybody the hell out.

Liberals would be wise to carefully study how the far right went from a fringe group of howler monkeys to capturing the Republican party in less than 2 decades. It is possible to move farther from the center while moving up in the polls. The mainstream Democratic party of people like Hillary will not help us do that -- in fact they will actively oppose it because it threatens the sweet graft deal they have with FIRE, the military-surveillance complex, and big pharm. But it can be done -- for all the misery the far right has visited upon our country and its people, they did show us that.

 

[Rover]

Re: Campaign 2016 - It's never too late to start all over again!

Depends on if Bernie endorses Hillary whole heartedly or not. Howard Dean crushing Little Ralphie Nader and co-opting his trust fund liberal crowd helped bring these people home in the 2006 and 2008 elections. Basically hard core lefties felt they had representation in the party with him as DNC head. Likewise a Bernie or more importantly Warren stumping for Hillary gets a lot of these people on board.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Campaign 2016 - It's never too late to start all over again!

Depends on if Bernie endorses Hillary whole heartedly or not.

He will. He's an ideologue, but since his cause is the Have Nots he understands that a Republican cannot be permitted to get anywhere near the White House. He knows his history, too. William Jennings Bryan prolonged the pain of the poor under the Gilded Age by more than a decade with his stubborn purism, and of course we know the cataclysm Nader helped bring about.

Hillary needs to understand her responsibilities, too, however. She will be tempted, like her husband, to repudiate the very policies that attract voters to the Democratic party, especially if after 30 years among the jet set she has become completely detached from how real human beings suffer under crony capitalism. She has to understand that her triangulation centrism doesn't bring the boys to the yard. If she tries to muzzle or intimidate the liberal wing of the party, she will self-immolate. I hope her campaign staff understand this (and I hope there's not a single person working on it who was also there in 2008, because that crew was the '62 Mets).

 

[Handyman]

Re: Campaign 2016 - It's never too late to start all over again!

Depends on if Bernie endorses Hillary whole heartedly or not. Howard Dean crushing Little Ralphie Nader and co-opting his trust fund liberal crowd helped bring these people home in the 2006 and 2008 elections. Basically hard core lefties felt they had representation in the party with him as DNC head. Likewise a Bernie or more importantly Warren stumping for Hillary gets a lot of these people on board.

I love how you rip Nader...a guy who actually fights for what he believes in and worship at the pantsuit of Hillary, a two faced crony who would use the poor as gasoline if it got her the nomination. I know you and your ilk like to blame him for Al Snore losing the election but Gore lost it himself. He was spineless, tactless, a horrible debater and ran away from Bill despite his popularity. Gore lost because Gore the Candidate sucked.

I dont care if Bernie is stumping for HRC every day, he will never convince me to vote for that fraud.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Campaign 2016 - It's never too late to start all over again!

I dont care if Bernie is stumping for HRC every day, he will never convince me to vote for that fraud.

She's syphilis. The Republicans are cholera.

I'll take syphilis.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Campaign 2016 - It's never too late to start all over again!

I love how you rip Nader...a guy who actually fights for what he believes in and worship at the pantsuit of Hillary, a two faced crony who would use the poor as gasoline if it got her the nomination. I know you and your ilk like to blame him for Al Snore losing the election but Gore lost it himself. He was spineless, tactless, a horrible debater and ran away from Bill despite his popularity. Gore lost because Gore the Candidate sucked.

I dont care if Bernie is stumping for HRC every day, he will never convince me to vote for that fraud.

Don't blame you. I will vote for her, however, because I know there is no one in the GOP that will be worth voting for. What John Boehner and Mitch McConnell have done, and the support they have received for what they have done will prevent me from considering any of those clowns for years.

Kasich is about the only one over there I would even hesitate on.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Campaign 2016 - It's never too late to start all over again!

Kasich is about the only one over there I would even hesitate on.

He's better than most of the declared candidates but he sucks too:

Voted YES on barring transporting minors to get an abortion. (Jun 1999)
1995 shutdown led to first balanced budget in 40 years. (May 2006)
Sarbanes-Oxley deters legitimate American business. (May 2006)
Voted YES on banning gay adoptions in DC. (Jul 1999)
Supports Amendment to prevent same sex marriage. (Aug 2010)
Voted NO on maintaining right of habeas corpus in Death Penalty Appeals. (Mar 1996)
Bible stories are historical facts. (Jun 2010)
Did earth come about on its own? Evidence says No. (Jun 2010)
Tax money for entrepreneurial private schools. (Apr 1999)
Voted YES on allowing vouchers in DC schools. (Aug 1998)
Voted YES on vouchers for private & parochial schools. (Nov 1997)
Voted YES on giving federal aid only to schools allowing voluntary prayer. (Mar 1994)
Supports a Constitutional Amendment for school prayer. (May 1997)
Voted YES on decreasing gun waiting period from 3 days to 1. (Jun 1999)
Fire professor who said 9-11 victims brought on attack. (May 2006)
Declared English the official language of the US. (Jan 1999)
I can't figure out how anyone gets along without the Bible. (May 2006)

Lots of herpa-derpery; in no way any smarter or more responsible than the average GOP back-bencher. Snooze.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Campaign 2016 - It's never too late to start all over again!

He's better than most of the declared candidates but he sucks too:



Lots of herpa-derpery; in no way any smarter or more responsible than the average GOP back-bencher. Snooze.

And therein lies the problem. They're all lunatics.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Campaign 2016 - It's never too late to start all over again!

And therein lies the problem. They're all lunatics.

Shrug. Supply and demand.

 

[Rover]

Re: Campaign 2016 - It's never too late to start all over again!

I love how you rip Nader...a guy who actually fights for what he believes in and worship at the pantsuit of Hillary, a two faced crony who would use the poor as gasoline if it got her the nomination. I know you and your ilk like to blame him for Al Snore losing the election but Gore lost it himself. He was spineless, tactless, a horrible debater and ran away from Bill despite his popularity. Gore lost because Gore the Candidate sucked.

I dont care if Bernie is stumping for HRC every day, he will never convince me to vote for that fraud.

Little Ralphie Nader is an egotistical fraud who needs to have his own statue in the George W Bush Presidential library to 1) stoke his own ego and 2) receive proper credit for electing the worst President in living memory. You don't just make something like that go away. Didn't Nader start a museum to himself in Connecticut? For what exactly?

Why Ralphie is a pathetic fraud is simple. His trite and oft repeated mantra "there's no difference between the political parties" borrowed from George Wallace of all people. Regardless of your political leanings, you've got to be a pretty big idiot if you think the USA wouldn't be a different place if we'd elected Gore, warts and all, instead of Bush. No Iraq War. No massive defense buildup. No surveillence state. No Gitmo. No torture. No $2T in gimmicky tax cuts (in fact Gore ran on eliminating the national debt over 16 years time). Yes, a recession would have happened and 9/11 also probably would have happened, but the reaction to these events was horrific. Ralphie in his desire to deify himself lost sight of this, and he deserves to be held up as a fraud for the rest of his days.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Campaign 2016 - It's never too late to start all over again!

Nader stayed too long at the party, but he did make a huge impact on consumer protection. I don't agree with his "not a dime's worth of difference" either, but it's just historical revisionism to ignore that he fought the bad guys virtually alone at the beginning, and he showed that consumers united can force corporations to reform. I would say without Nader's example, we would not have had the tobacco settlement or environmental protection decisions.

Nader is responsible for a lot of good. He certainly played into Jeb and the thieves' plans, but that's no reason to demonize him.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Campaign 2016 - It's never too late to start all over again!

A long but interesting article concerning almost too many things to list.

 

[Rover]

Re: Campaign 2016 - It's never too late to start all over again!

Nader stayed too long at the party, but he did make a huge impact on consumer protection. I don't agree with his "not a dime's worth of difference" either, but it's just historical revisionism to ignore that he fought the bad guys virtually alone at the beginning, and he showed that consumers united can force corporations to reform. I would say without Nader's example, we would not have had the tobacco settlement or environmental protection decisions.

Nader is responsible for a lot of good. He certainly played into Jeb and the thieves' plans, but that's no reason to demonize him.

I couldn't tell you what the guy was up to 50 years ago, so if he did some good give him his props. It doesn't make up for giving us GWB. Some screw ups you don't get to live down. He doesn't get a pass on this one, and deserves all the scorn that comes his way. He owns it, plain and simple.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Campaign 2016 - It's never too late to start all over again!

I couldn't tell you what the guy was up to 50 years ago, so if he did some good give him his props. It doesn't make up for giving us GWB. Some screw ups you don't get to live down. He doesn't get a pass on this one, and deserves all the scorn that comes his way. He owns it, plain and simple.

You are not correct, but I believe we can both live with that.

 

[joecct]

Re: Campaign 2016 - It's never too late to start all over again!

Do we want to back to the 70's - prior to bank deregulation?

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: Campaign 2016 - It's never too late to start all over again!

She's syphilis. The Republicans are cholera.

I'll take syphilis.

I think you have that backwards. If Hillary is syphilis, that means she'll present multiple symptom stages and get worse with time unless treated. Cholera is rarely fatal in countries with access to clean water and IV fluids.