Campaign 2016 - A Trump l'oeil? Kepler's Laws of Election Motions? Ship of Fools?

[burd]

Re: Campaign 2016 - A Trump l'oeil? Kepler's Laws of Election Motions? Ship of Fools

I would be in favor of it if I believed for a second that Stewart wouldnt just start debating himself halfway through. He has a tendency to interrupt people in interviews and just speak for them ESPECIALLY when he doesnt agree with them. Usually his points are correct or at least salient, but it is offputting many times.

I have thought the same thing myself. Not many things I don't (didn't) like about what he does, though.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Campaign 2016 - A Trump l'oeil? Kepler's Laws of Election Motions? Ship of Fools

After falling behind Trump and Carson, Walker making a valiant late drive for Eftard of the Week.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Campaign 2016 - A Trump l'oeil? Kepler's Laws of Election Motions? Ship of Fools

Liberal homage for the short-fingered vulgarian.

A love letter to the Donald for doing that thang he does.

 

[Rover]

Re: Campaign 2016 - A Trump l'oeil? Kepler's Laws of Election Motions? Ship of Fools

Beware! Its a rumor of...

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/f...tting-in/article/2570683#.VdsF6UTixPM.twitter

MITTENS MAKING ANOTHER BID! GOD HELP US ALL!!!

I have to say, I'm thinking of switching allegiances! Not to the cult that Bernie Sanders has formed. Nor to a Draft Lizzy Warren bid, or for Uncle Joe Biden who the Dems owe a big debt of thanks to for crushing weasel Paul Ryan in the VP debate but offers little difference with Hillary....but to...

Donald Trump!!!!

Now before you think I'm a total sell-out, consider this following:

1) My goal, and the goal of Rover Nation, is to crush knuckledragger conservatism, which is currently represented by the Republican party, once and for all. This isn't the same thing as crushing the Rupublican Party itself, which will always exist in some form or another.

2) Backing Hillary seems the best way to do so, as losing 3 Presidential races in a row will cause a revolt on the right. However, that would merely be over changing tactics, not the wholesale destruction of the caveman movement that owns the GOP. (Spare me the Sanders movement please - by the time the GOP and their willing enablers in the lamestream media get done with him he'll be the second coming of The Nutty Professor. Meaning, we have no idea how he'd hold up against a right wing smear campaign and I'd rather not find out in November of 2016.)

3) Having said all this, I never envisioned a stalking horse who could destroy the GOP from the inside! That is Mr. Donald J Trump. What Trump can, and is, doing is simple but brilliant. He's calling out all the frauds, hucksters, grifters, and hangers-on currently making conservativism the angry but impotent do-nothing movement that is it. Unlike Kep, I have no problem with the Republicans being represented by business interests, because at least their honest about their motivations. They want to steal everything not nailed down, and put forward policies that do so. The problem is too many voters, including posters out here (Bob, joecct, formerly Lynah although I'm not sure if he's still a Gooper, etc) vote Republican in the forlorn and foolhardy belief that they're still voting for the Republicans of yonder years (Reagan, Baker, Dole, Bush I, Kemp, etc). These people, who ought to know better, are enabling the nutbags who truly are at the center of power.

As Trump calls out the professional grifters who don't give a rat's *** about the party, but who are only along for the ride to make money (Luntz, Fox News, various pundidiots, think tanks) or to keep their cushy jobs (Boner, Itch, the rest of Congressional leadership) he widens a split between the nutjobs who want to see action on repealing the 14th Amendment, deporting all people with funny sounding accents, putting gays back in the closet, etc and the people who pay lip service to that but really are just in it to make a few bucks and do the Sunday talk show circuit (I know you don't watch those if you're younger than 80, but have you ever seen the line-up for those shows? Its like 5 conservatives to 1 lefty. Some liberal bias...). As Trump makes these people run and cower, he'll bring to the forefront that modern day conservatism has nothing to with mythical Reaganism, but is really rooted in some sort of frenzy for maniacal revenge against...well, there's always something. With him as the nominee, the veil is lifted and there for all to see what's really underneath. Then the aforementioned conservatives who aren't insane can finally stop supporting the crazies, and this country will be much, much better off for it!

I'm just sorry I sent Ted Cruz my 25 bucks. I thought he'd be the one leading this charge.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Campaign 2016 - A Trump l'oeil? Kepler's Laws of Election Motions? Ship of Fools

Yeah, but Hillary is to the Dems what Trump is to the Republicans.

 

[Rover]

Re: Campaign 2016 - A Trump l'oeil? Kepler's Laws of Election Motions? Ship of Fools

Yeah, but Hillary is to the Dems what Trump is to the Republicans.

That makes no sense, but okay...

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Campaign 2016 - A Trump l'oeil? Kepler's Laws of Election Motions? Ship of Fools

That makes no sense, but okay...

This entire campaign has been about Trump and Hillary. Not the issues. So, ok, it don't make sense to you but it makes perfect sense to me.

 

[geezer]

Re: Campaign 2016 - A Trump l'oeil? Kepler's Laws of Election Motions? Ship of Fools

The Donald's base.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Campaign 2016 - A Trump l'oeil? Kepler's Laws of Election Motions? Ship of Fools

Spare me the Sanders movement please - by the time the GOP and their willing enablers in the lamestream media get done with him he'll be the second coming of The Nutty Professor. Meaning, we have no idea how he'd hold up against a right wing smear campaign and I'd rather not find out in November of 2016.

That's a risk, but by the same token they are going to paint Hillary as a cross between Elizabeth Báthory and Ethel Rosenberg. The Clintons do know to bring a bazooka to a knife fight, but Bernie is hardly professorial like Dukakis or noblesse oblige like Kerry -- he knows how to fight bare knuckle, and so do the activists who Hillary is going to need after the convention.

You will never win the hearts and minds of liberals by constantly denigrating our positions, motivations, and candidates. Save your bile for the real enemy. Your "come with me if you want to live" drag act just turns us off. There's no doubt in my mind that the coronation will take place, so relax and be magnanimous if you don't want to wreck the Dems the same way the Republicans are wrecking themselves.

As you've said yourself, beating the orcs is too important to let ego get in the way.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Campaign 2016 - A Trump l'oeil? Kepler's Laws of Election Motions? Ship of Fools

Sure there is dissatisfaction with the government as always. But I'm of the opinion that that is not what's driving Sanders, Trump popularity.

Society's politics curve is bell shaped. There a good number of centrist democrats...and a decent number of those further left. Same on the right. Sanders and Trumps numbers line up based on those segments just as you'd expect...that's also why Carson, Clinton, and Bush have the numbers that they do.

I think we can validate that by asking Sanders supporters here. I bet they would not say they support Sanders because they hate what's happening in Washington. I'm sure they'd say they support Sanders because he has views similar to theirs. In the end, most in either party come back to those in their party nominees...because they are electable and the closest to their views.

 

[St. Clown]

Re: Campaign 2016 - A Trump l'oeil? Kepler's Laws of Election Motions? Ship of Fools

1) My goal, and the goal of Rover Nation, is to crush knuckledragger conservatism, which is currently represented by the Republican party, once and for all. This isn't the same thing as crushing the Rupublican Party itself, which will always exist in some form or another.

so long as the party has a great deal of success in Congressional elections, the party won't implode. They'll look to the specific candidate as the problem. I retun you to the "It's not us, it's them" mentality. Only a huge loss in Congress coupled with loss of the White House would make for a large party change. It took the 1980's and 2000's to reshape the DNC, similar events will be required for the GOP.

 

[Rover]

Re: Campaign 2016 - A Trump l'oeil? Kepler's Laws of Election Motions? Ship of Fools

That's a risk, but by the same token they are going to paint Hillary as a cross between Elizabeth Báthory and Ethel Rosenberg. The Clintons do know to bring a bazooka to a knife fight, but Bernie is hardly professorial like Dukakis or noblesse oblige like Kerry -- he knows how to fight bare knuckle, and so do the activists who Hillary is going to need after the convention.

You will never win the hearts and minds of liberals by constantly denigrating our positions, motivations, and candidates. Save your bile for the real enemy. Your "come with me if you want to live" drag act just turns us off. There's no doubt in my mind that the coronation will take place, so relax and be magnanimous if you don't want to wreck the Dems the same way the Republicans are wrecking themselves.

As you've said yourself, beating the orcs is too important to let ego get in the way.

Kep, buddy, stop taking everything so personally. For the one billionth time, I like Bernie Sanders. I've never trashed the guy, or his supporters. BUT, you're taking it as a leap of faith that he's not another Kerry, campaign wise. I don't know that, because I don't believe he's ever faced a competitive race in Vermont, and even if he has I doubt he faced a nonsensical smear campaign as Green State Goopers are a pretty tame bunch.

I see this happen all the time in Mass which is why the GOP has won 5 out of the last 7 races for governor. Dem candidate comes up through the state party apparatus (legislature, AG office, treasurer etc) where you outrun your primary opponent to the left. Then when the general election comes around, and there's a debate question about welfare reform, they get caught flat footed when their proposal to hand out fake social security #'s to illegal immigrants gets booed ( ).

So, I don't know if Bernie, O'Malley, frankly even Warren is battle tested enough, although I'd have a lot more confidence in Lizzy of that crowd. I know Uncle Joe Biden is, and I know Hillary is. IMHO that's a real world consideration regardless of who the nominee ends up being (for the record Obama was also an unknown who handled that stuff pretty well).

 

[Rover]

Re: Campaign 2016 - A Trump l'oeil? Kepler's Laws of Election Motions? Ship of Fools

so long as the party has a great deal of success in Congressional elections, the party won't implode. They'll look to the specific candidate as the problem. I retun you to the "It's not us, it's them" mentality. Only a huge loss in Congress coupled with loss of the White House would make for a large party change. It took the 1980's and 2000's to reshape the DNC, similar events will be required for the GOP.

I agree, which is why I'm thinking of backing Trump all the way! Trump as nominee could lose the GOP the House (GOP will lose Senate if they lose Presidential election. It would be a miracle if they lost IL, PA, WI, and NH but held onto those seats with first term incumbents running for re-election). That's the kind of crushing @ sskicking he could bring about.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Campaign 2016 - A Trump l'oeil? Kepler's Laws of Election Motions? Ship of Fools

Kep, buddy, stop taking everything so personally. For the one billionth time, I like Bernie Sanders. I've never trashed the guy, or his supporters. BUT, you're taking it as a leap of faith that he's not another Kerry, campaign wise. I don't know that, because I don't believe he's ever faced a competitive race in Vermont, and even if he has I doubt he faced a nonsensical smear campaign as Green State Goopers are a pretty tame bunch.

I see this happen all the time in Mass which is why the GOP has won 5 out of the last 7 races for governor. Dem candidate comes up through the state party apparatus (legislature, AG office, treasurer etc) where you outrun your primary opponent to the left. Then when the general election comes around, and there's a debate question about welfare reform, they get caught flat footed when their proposal to hand out fake social security #'s to illegal immigrants gets booed ( ).

So, I don't know if Bernie, O'Malley, frankly even Warren is battle tested enough, although I'd have a lot more confidence in Lizzy of that crowd. I know Uncle Joe Biden is, and I know Hillary is. IMHO that's a real world consideration regardless of who the nominee ends up being (for the record Obama was also an unknown who handled that stuff pretty well).

You're talking about personalities, I'm talking about policies. For someone who throws around the "Beltway mentality" charge, you are spending a lot of time thinking about optics and campaign strategy, which is the obsession inside the Beltway. Sanders' appeal isn't persona, it's policy -- he's a threat to the unholy alliance of Washington and Wall Street that's destroying the well-being of everybody in America worth under $10M.

If Hillary moves towards Bernie's and Warren's positions on breaking up the banks and restoring a true progressive income tax, there is no reason to back Bernie anymore -- Hillary becomes the champion of good policy. If she doesn't, then we will continue to seek other options. After the convention we'll back the Democratic nominee because out of 100 issues the Republicans are destructive of American interests and traditions on 95 of them.

Moderate Democrats and liberal Democrats should be able to find compromise positions on issues. We are, in the end, in the same boat facing the same sea monster.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Campaign 2016 - A Trump l'oeil? Kepler's Laws of Election Motions? Ship of Fools

This should be fun.

Just weeks later in July 2004, Charles Kushner was indicted by then-U.S. Attorney Chris Christie on charges of conspiracy, obstruction of justice, and interstate promotion of prostitution (!) for trying to derail a federal investigation Christie’s office had opened into Kushner’s political operations during the prior year. It turned out that Charles was concerned about his sister’s cooperation with Christie’s grand jury and decided to blackmail her into silence by hiring a prostitute to seduce her husband. In a Bridgewater, N.J. motel room of the Red Bull Inn (not kidding) equipped with a hidden video camera Charles secretly recorded his brother-in-law in flagrante. Charles then sent the tape to his sister, threatening to make it public unless she stopped cooperating with the feds.

And Charles Kushner is back in the news as a major donor to a PAC for... Donald Trump.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Campaign 2016 - A Trump l'oeil? Kepler's Laws of Election Motions? Ship of Fools

Interesting.

Maybe this really is Cruz' plan for a path to the nom.

1. Gin up evangy hysteria.
2. Threaten a shutdown over PP.
3. Wail as the GOP adults block him to save the party.
4. Use that to "prove" he's the religious right's only choice.
5. Parry every attack on him as an "attack on faith."

As Otter said, it's gotta work better than the truth.

 

[Rover]

Re: Campaign 2016 - A Trump l'oeil? Kepler's Laws of Election Motions? Ship of Fools

You're talking about personalities, I'm talking about policies. For someone who throws around the "Beltway mentality" charge, you are spending a lot of time thinking about optics and campaign strategy, which is the obsession inside the Beltway. Sanders' appeal isn't persona, it's policy -- he's a threat to the unholy alliance of Washington and Wall Street that's destroying the well-being of everybody in America worth under $10M.

If Hillary moves towards Bernie's and Warren's positions on breaking up the banks and restoring a true progressive income tax, there is no reason to back Bernie anymore -- Hillary becomes the champion of good policy. If she doesn't, then we will continue to seek other options. After the convention we'll back the Democratic nominee because out of 100 issues the Republicans are destructive of American interests and traditions on 95 of them.

Moderate Democrats and liberal Democrats should be able to find compromise positions on issues. We are, in the end, in the same boat facing the same sea monster.

That's EXACTLY what I'm saying. Optics matter, a lot! Its not fair or right, but it is what it is. You can't have a hypothetical candidate who's 100% right on issues but who looks like a bum, or goes to campaign events dressed in a chicken suit. People won't take them seriously, and its too easy to distract the public over non-issues (who you'd rather have a beer with or other such nonsense). Dems get killed on this all the time because they have too much faith in both voters and especially the press to parse through all that clutter. Voters are too busy and the press just wants a headline with no regard to whether or not its true.

So Yes, Bernie's appearance matters, as does Hillary's, Trump's etc. Optics should not be the driving force behind a campaign, but they HAVE to be a big part of the presentation. Same for the GOP, although they tend to understand this a little better. Problem for the knucks' this time around is that they all are embracing unpopular polices, AND as public speakers they are all about as exciting as burnt toast. Aside from Trump, who amongst the other 16 has a winning personality? Jebbers! Walker? Cruz? Paul? Rubio? Christie? A bunch of stiffs and one fat loudmouth slob.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: Campaign 2016 - A Trump l'oeil? Kepler's Laws of Election Motions? Ship of Fools

Beware! Its a rumor of...

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/f...tting-in/article/2570683#.VdsF6UTixPM.twitter

MITTENS MAKING ANOTHER BID! GOD HELP US ALL!!!

I have to say, I'm thinking of switching allegiances! Not to the cult that Bernie Sanders has formed. Nor to a Draft Lizzy Warren bid, or for Uncle Joe Biden who the Dems owe a big debt of thanks to for crushing weasel Paul Ryan in the VP debate but offers little difference with Hillary....but to...

Donald Trump!!!!

Now before you think I'm a total sell-out, consider this following:

1) My goal, and the goal of Rover Nation, is to crush knuckledragger conservatism, which is currently represented by the Republican party, once and for all. This isn't the same thing as crushing the Rupublican Party itself, which will always exist in some form or another.

2) Backing Hillary seems the best way to do so, as losing 3 Presidential races in a row will cause a revolt on the right. However, that would merely be over changing tactics, not the wholesale destruction of the caveman movement that owns the GOP. (Spare me the Sanders movement please - by the time the GOP and their willing enablers in the lamestream media get done with him he'll be the second coming of The Nutty Professor. Meaning, we have no idea how he'd hold up against a right wing smear campaign and I'd rather not find out in November of 2016.)

3) Having said all this, I never envisioned a stalking horse who could destroy the GOP from the inside! That is Mr. Donald J Trump. What Trump can, and is, doing is simple but brilliant. He's calling out all the frauds, hucksters, grifters, and hangers-on currently making conservativism the angry but impotent do-nothing movement that is it. Unlike Kep, I have no problem with the Republicans being represented by business interests, because at least their honest about their motivations. They want to steal everything not nailed down, and put forward policies that do so. The problem is too many voters, including posters out here (Bob, joecct, formerly Lynah although I'm not sure if he's still a Gooper, etc) vote Republican in the forlorn and foolhardy belief that they're still voting for the Republicans of yonder years (Reagan, Baker, Dole, Bush I, Kemp, etc). These people, who ought to know better, are enabling the nutbags who truly are at the center of power.

As Trump calls out the professional grifters who don't give a rat's *** about the party, but who are only along for the ride to make money (Luntz, Fox News, various pundidiots, think tanks) or to keep their cushy jobs (Boner, Itch, the rest of Congressional leadership) he widens a split between the nutjobs who want to see action on repealing the 14th Amendment, deporting all people with funny sounding accents, putting gays back in the closet, etc and the people who pay lip service to that but really are just in it to make a few bucks and do the Sunday talk show circuit (I know you don't watch those if you're younger than 80, but have you ever seen the line-up for those shows? Its like 5 conservatives to 1 lefty. Some liberal bias...). As Trump makes these people run and cower, he'll bring to the forefront that modern day conservatism has nothing to with mythical Reaganism, but is really rooted in some sort of frenzy for maniacal revenge against...well, there's always something. With him as the nominee, the veil is lifted and there for all to see what's really underneath. Then the aforementioned conservatives who aren't insane can finally stop supporting the crazies, and this country will be much, much better off for it!

I'm just sorry I sent Ted Cruz my 25 bucks. I thought he'd be the one leading this charge.

Instead of typing all this out, and risking a burst blood vessel, couldn't you have just relinked to Kep's DailyKos link?

Liberal homage for the short-fingered vulgarian.

A love letter to the Donald for doing that thang he does.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Campaign 2016 - A Trump l'oeil? Kepler's Laws of Election Motions? Ship of Fools

That's EXACTLY what I'm saying. Optics matter, a lot! Its not fair or right, but it is what it is. You can't have a hypothetical candidate who's 100% right on issues but who looks like a bum, or goes to campaign events dressed in a chicken suit. People won't take them seriously, and its too easy to distract the public over non-issues (who you'd rather have a beer with or other such nonsense). Dems get killed on this all the time because they have too much faith in both voters and especially the press to parse through all that clutter. Voters are too busy and the press just wants a headline with no regard to whether or not its true.

So Yes, Bernie's appearance matters, as does Hillary's, Trump's etc. Optics should not be the driving force behind a campaign, but they HAVE to be a big part of the presentation. Same for the GOP, although they tend to understand this a little better. Problem for the knucks' this time around is that they all are embracing unpopular polices, AND as public speakers they are all about as exciting as burnt toast. Aside from Trump, who amongst the other 16 has a winning personality? Jebbers! Walker? Cruz? Paul? Rubio? Christie? A bunch of stiffs and one fat loudmouth slob.

I repeat, moderate Democrats and liberal Democrats should be able to find compromise positions on issues. I assume Hillary will be the nominee, so I am rooting for her to advocate for and then execute the best possible policies for this country. We can take advantage of the Clintons' experience and ruthlessness in campaigning but also win on policy. I actually think it won't be that much of a stretch to pull Hillary to the left on domestic policy because she strikes me as considerably more liberal than Bill on women's issues, the environment, and class issues, while perhaps being somewhat more to the right on racial issues. On foreign policy, I think she's a Cold War liberal JFK type which, well, we're probably not going to improve upon in the current climate where everybody from both parties is hiding under the bed.

 

[Rover]

Re: Campaign 2016 - A Trump l'oeil? Kepler's Laws of Election Motions? Ship of Fools

Instead of typing all this out, and risking a burst blood vessel, couldn't you have just relinked to Kep's DailyKos link?

No, because Kep's kos link has nothing to do with my post. That article states how the author likes that Trump has overshadowed several people that they don't like. Swell, but I'm after much, much bigger game. Too many lefties are obsessed with Scott Walker for example, a little turd who'll get crushed in a general election. Yes, its nice that he's damaged Jebbers! and the like, but who cares? Jebbers and crew had very little chance of winning the Presidency anyway. The Donald's contribution to society is not his current poll lead over the rest of the clown car. Its that he's bringing the radical, extreme, racist, sexist, bitter angry old white dude vote front and center. He's not even trying to hide it and the lamestream media can no longer avoid it despite their best efforts to do the RNC's bidding. Pundidiotry is really missing the larger theme going on here, which is that the base of the GOP through the primaries thus far is casting off all pretense of moderation and is going for some sort of Talibanesque version of a political party. Now they FINALLY have a candidate who will speak to their rage.