BU 2017 Season Thread II: Terriers rising

[BU Fan 84]

Re: BU 2017 Season Thread II: Terriers rising

Who is here that wasn't supposed to be? The only Juniors and Seniors that I can think of that could fall into the mold are McLeod and Somerby. I'll agree that I expected more from McLeod. Somerby could certainly have signed after last year (not saying he would have stepped into an NHL role), but wanted to come back for his senior year. Come to think of it, so did O'Regan. Did O'Regan come back because he hadn't developed enough? I think he has shown in his first pro season that he developed quite nicely in his 4 years at BU. While I have some concerns about the coaching situation, I think one thing not really mentioned through all this is that the players seems to really like playing for Quinn. Not always a good thing, but all else being equal, it is in my book.

Your last two sentences there - I have a response coming this afternoon for chickod that refers to this.

 

[BU Fan 84]

Re: BU 2017 Season Thread II: Terriers rising

You must be a personal friend of GQ. Most all players improve over the 4 years. My point is Quinn so busy loading pipeline of recruits that no money for team players...grinders...hustlers, working players... How many of those 3rd and 4th line players other than Olsen who is hurt 50% of time have come back after Sophmore year..The players you referred to were all recruited by Parker.....including Eichel...last time BU won Beanpot. Sullivan wanted job,family in Hingham...married with children. Instead we have a 47 year old bachelor from GQ

Dude, come on. I have been railing against his coaching since last season and even said I hope he isn't the coach next season. And you think I am friends with him? Also, are you saying you only want ugly old men to coach at BU?

Anyway, to answer your question, yes, a bunch of talentless hacks who don't really belong on a D1 roster left after 13-14. Since then, which grinders/hustlers have left prior to graduating? Piccinich, Greer, Baillargeon all left because Quinn wanted them to play that role and they didn't want to. Fortunato was a supposedly high-end offensive talent; he was not a defensively-sound, stay-at-home D man so he doesn't fit into your category. The only player I can think of that wasn't on the screwed up 13-14 roster was Udahl. He left without ever playing a game. I fail to see how this negatively impacts BU. Hohmann, Moran, Lane all stayed for four years. Phelps, Kelley, Andren, Roberto, Cloonan, Olsson, Somerby, MacLeod, Switzer, Diffley - all still here. There is no truth to your statement and it seems to be built on a false narrative, which I will get to when I respond to chickod.

 

[BU Fan 84]

Re: BU 2017 Season Thread II: Terriers rising

So that begs the question. Is this the way it's going to be from now on? Because I, for one, have no interest in watching an NHL farm team. I have been going to BU hockey games since 1971. I get it that "things have changed," but why can't he also recruit some "middle tier" talent who will not go to the NHL and provide some continuity for the program as well as leadership when they progress to upperclassmen? It doesn't have to be "all or nothing." And if that is what it is going to be, then you are going to have a hard time convincing me that Quinn WANTS to be anything more than a "developer" of NHL players. As an alumnus, I would have thought he would want to maintain (I won't say "restore" because that will make some of you apoplectic) the status of this storied program. Understand...I am not making absolute statements. I am ASKING. Is this an anomaly? I would like to watch a team where a good percentage of the players stay more than one year. Because you will NEVER develop a cohesive unit with this much turnover. And if that is what it is going to continue to be, I'm not interested.

Chickod, I have to tell you that I think you are a little nuts. I don't mean anything rude by that, but I just don't think your beliefs/fears are rooted in reality. The way you speak about it, it sounds as though we have had a rash of guys leaving after one year. Under Quinn, exactly one single player has left early to play in the NHL (I define "early" as prior to their fourth year, or prior to graduating, whichever comes first). You harken back to the old days when everything was much different with BU hockey and your example of this is ... 08-09. Following that season, two players left early (Strait & Wilson). After the next season, Bonino, Shattenkirk, and Cohen left early. Then Warsofsky. Then Chiasson and Clendening, then Nieto. Under Quinn, O'Regan and Grizz could have left, but they didn't. Somerby and Hickey could have left early, but they came back. If JFK or Greenway really wanted to go, they could have after last season. There's no reason Keller, Fabbro, or McAvoy needed to be here this season, but they are. So, in a matter of five years, we lost nine players early to the NHL. In four years under Quinn, we have lost one. Don't create an issue where there is not one. Will it become an issue in the future? Maybe. Maybe not. We have no way of knowing. But acting as if this problem already exists, like you are, is really strange to me.

 

[chickod]

Re: BU 2017 Season Thread II: Terriers rising

The way you speak about it, it sounds as though we have had a rash of guys leaving after one year.

You're completely missing my point. It's about the mindset. If you're LeBron James in the sixth grade and you are showered with praise, told how wonderful you are and given advantages all along the way, what happens? Your ego becomes enormous and you begin to act entitled. When these NHL picks and WJH players come in, they are already <b><i>expecting</i></b> to be going to the NHL. It doesn't matter if they don't actually end up being as good as "advertised" and have to stay in school longer. I'm talking about the mentality with which they play. It's tougher to get a group of high ego players working together as a cohesive unit. I don't know what you have been watching, but someone described that Monday they were skating around like "chickens with their heads cut off." That's exactly what I saw. There is no cohesiveness (sorry to keep using the same word but I can't think of another one that describes it any better); there is too much individuality and examples of players trying to do everything by themselves. That comes with the territory when you have highly skilled players. But it's up to the coach to try to get them to modify their style for the good of the team.

So I wish everyone would stop with this "but only [insert number here] players ACTUALLY have left." IT DOESN'T MATTER. It's the fact that they came here EXPECTING not to finish school and to go to the NHL. If you take a guy who KNOWS he is not NHL caliber, he is going to tend to fit into a system better, because he knows he is going to have to be a team player to be successful. Also, this is going to be his last experience as part of a team at this level, because he will probably get a degree and a job doing something other than playing hockey. So there is tremendous motivation to win.

What I said was I'm not interested in watching an NHL farm team. I didn't say "they all left early." How many players on the Pawtucket Red Sox actually make it to the majors and stay there? How many players on the Providence Bruins actually make it as an NHL regular? But that doesn't change the fact that they're farm teams. The players come and go as if they're on a merry-go-round.

I am just lamenting that college hockey is becoming like that. I am not BLAMING anybody. I simply am not interested in watching a farm team. Let them play juniors if their only goal (pun intended) is to go to the NHL.

 

[BUtogether]

Chickod, I have to tell you that I think you are a little nuts. I don't mean anything rude by that, but I just don't think your beliefs/fears are rooted in reality. The way you speak about it, it sounds as though we have had a rash of guys leaving after one year. Under Quinn, exactly one single player has left early to play in the NHL (I define "early" as prior to their fourth year, or prior to graduating, whichever comes first). You harken back to the old days when everything was much different with BU hockey and your example of this is ... 08-09. Following that season, two players left early (Strait & Wilson). After the next season, Bonino, Shattenkirk, and Cohen left early. Then Warsofsky. Then Chiasson and Clendening, then Nieto. Under Quinn, O'Regan and Grizz could have left, but they didn't. Somerby and Hickey could have left early, but they came back. If JFK or Greenway really wanted to go, they could have after last season. There's no reason Keller, Fabbro, or McAvoy needed to be here this season, but they are. So, in a matter of five years, we lost nine players early to the NHL. In four years under Quinn, we have lost one. Don't create an issue where there is not one. Will it become an issue in the future? Maybe. Maybe not. We have no way of knowing. But acting as if this problem already exists, like you are, is really strange to me.

I am curious as to why you assume it is only the players decision to leave early or not. Many times the NHL team sees no development and moves on

 

[BUtogether]

You're completely missing my point. It's about the mindset. If you're LeBron James in the sixth grade and you are showered with praise, told how wonderful you are and given advantages all along the way, what happens? Your ego becomes enormous and you begin to act entitled. When these NHL picks and WJH players come in, they are already <b><i>expecting</i></b> to be going to the NHL. It doesn't matter if they don't actually end up being as good as "advertised" and have to stay in school longer. I'm talking about the mentality with which they play. It's tougher to get a group of high ego players working together as a cohesive unit. I don't know what you have been watching, but someone described that Monday they were skating around like "chickens with their heads cut off." That's exactly what I saw. There is no cohesiveness (sorry to keep using the same word but I can't think of another one that describes it any better); there is too much individuality and examples of players trying to do everything by themselves. That comes with the territory when you have highly skilled players. But it's up to the coach to try to get them to modify their style for the good of the team.

So I wish everyone would stop with this "but only [insert number here] players ACTUALLY have left." IT DOESN'T MATTER. It's the fact that they came here EXPECTING not to finish school and to go to the NHL. If you take a guy who KNOWS he is not NHL caliber, he is going to tend to fit into a system better, because he knows he is going to have to be a team player to be successful. Also, this is going to be his last experience as part of a team at this level, because he will probably get a degree and a job doing something other than playing hockey. So there is tremendous motivation to win.

What I said was I'm not interested in watching an NHL farm team. I didn't say "they all left early." How many players on the Pawtucket Red Sox actually make it to the majors and stay there? How many players on the Providence Bruins actually make it as an NHL regular? But that doesn't change the fact that they're farm teams. The players come and go as if they're on a merry-go-round.

I am just lamenting that college hockey is becoming like that. I am not BLAMING anybody. I simply am not interested in watching a farm team. Let them play juniors if their only goal (pun intended) is to go to the NHL.

Amen...and if you have a coach who enables this mentality and is more interested in being an "advocate" to the NHL teams than playing the players who produce and want to be here then it looks like what we have been watching in the second half.

 

[brassbonanza]

Re: BU 2017 Season Thread II: Terriers rising

The players come and go as if they're on a merry-go-round.

The problem with your point is, the players aren't coming and going on a merry-go-round to the NHL under Quinn, as 84 points out. Unless you want to lament that the best player the college game has seen in ~25 years left early to go pro, there's no example. Conflating guys showing up and leaving early because they wanted to play in Canada or wanted more PT when their play wasn't warranting it with guys showing up with the intention of stopping over for a year or two on their way to the NHL is a false comparison. Greer/Piccinich/Fortunato etc. /= Eichel and perhaps Keller.

It's the fact that they came here EXPECTING not to finish school and to go to the NHL.

How do you know what all of these players, present and past, came here expecting to do?

 

[chickod]

Re: BU 2017 Season Thread II: Terriers rising

How do you know what all of these players, present and past, came here expecting to do?

If you aced the super-duper Advanced Placement physics course in high school and got a scholarship to, say, MIT, would you "expect" to become a successful physicist? Or would you say, "Yeah, I did OK but I think I'll go to Berklee and become a jazz musician?"

Jeez...if a fifteen year-old kid is told by everyone how great they are, you don't think they have "higher than normal" expectations? Many of us enrolled in BU, for example, without any "special" skills so we had to find our way. These guys (the NHL draft picks) have their path laid out for them. Again, it doesn't matter if the TEAMS decide they will leave early or THEY do - it has to do with the mindset for what they feel they are trying to accomplish. And the goals of a potential NHL player are typically different than that of a journeyman or four-year student.

So what are you saying? You think they DON'T expect to go to the NHL?

This is becoming pointless. Obviously neither side is going to budge and we each have our opinions. Let's just leave it at that...

 

[chickod]

Re: BU 2017 Season Thread II: Terriers rising

I am curious as to why you assume it is only the players decision to leave early or not. Many times the NHL team sees no development and moves on

I'm not. It doesn't matter WHY they leave early; it's the expectation when they get there that they WILL. It creates a different mindset because their long-term goal is different than the guy who knows he is not NHL caliber.

 

[Friend_of_BU_Hockey]

Re: BU 2017 Season Thread II: Terriers rising

You're completely missing my point. It's about the mindset. If you're LeBron James in the sixth grade and you are showered with praise, told how wonderful you are and given advantages all along the way, what happens? Your ego becomes enormous and you begin to act entitled. When these NHL picks and WJH players come in, they are already <b><i>expecting</i></b> to be going to the NHL. It doesn't matter if they don't actually end up being as good as "advertised" and have to stay in school longer. I'm talking about the mentality with which they play. It's tougher to get a group of high ego players working together as a cohesive unit. I don't know what you have been watching, but someone described that Monday they were skating around like "chickens with their heads cut off." That's exactly what I saw. There is no cohesiveness (sorry to keep using the same word but I can't think of another one that describes it any better); there is too much individuality and examples of players trying to do everything by themselves. That comes with the territory when you have highly skilled players. But it's up to the coach to try to get them to modify their style for the good of the team.

So I wish everyone would stop with this "but only [insert number here] players ACTUALLY have left." IT DOESN'T MATTER. It's the fact that they came here EXPECTING not to finish school and to go to the NHL. If you take a guy who KNOWS he is not NHL caliber, he is going to tend to fit into a system better, because he knows he is going to have to be a team player to be successful. Also, this is going to be his last experience as part of a team at this level, because he will probably get a degree and a job doing something other than playing hockey. So there is tremendous motivation to win.

What I said was I'm not interested in watching an NHL farm team. I didn't say "they all left early." How many players on the Pawtucket Red Sox actually make it to the majors and stay there? How many players on the Providence Bruins actually make it as an NHL regular? But that doesn't change the fact that they're farm teams. The players come and go as if they're on a merry-go-round.

I am just lamenting that college hockey is becoming like that. I am not BLAMING anybody. I simply am not interested in watching a farm team. Let them play juniors if their only goal (pun intended) is to go to the NHL.

With all due respect, I agree with BU Fan 84 that your beliefs/fears are not rooted in reality. In reading this and your other posts, I feel your viewpoints are based on an Utopian, idealistic perspective of what you still think college hockey *should* be, supported by theoretical assumptions of one's mentality and attitude when they're part of a program like BU's.

I get that you lament that BU hockey and D1 college hockey as a whole has evolved from when you first started following it back in the 70s. Truthfully, if you're no longer interested in following a program that is very attractive towards many players of the highest caliber who are eligible to and WANT to play D1 college hockey, it sounds like your vision of what college hockey should be can certainly be found in some great D3 programs. Sorry.

 

[Agganis]

Re: BU 2017 Season Thread II: Terriers rising

This is becoming pointless. Obviously neither side is going to budge and we each have our opinions. Let's just leave it at that...

To help me (us?), in your dream world about how many drafted players are on BU's roster in a given year?

 

[defkit]

Re: BU 2017 Season Thread II: Terriers rising

It was 26 years ago that BU had the following players all leave early:

Shawn McEachern (Olympics, but he wasn't going to be staying regardless, not after an 82 point Junior year)
Tony Amonte (sophomore)
Keith Tkachuk (freshman, Olympics, this one was a bit of a surprise)
Scott Lachance (freshman, Olympics)
Peter Ahola (sophomore)

While I don't disagree that the dynamics of it are different, players have been leaving early for a long time.

 

[Lemonade]

Re: BU 2017 Season Thread II: Terriers rising

I'm not. It doesn't matter WHY they leave early; it's the expectation when they get there that they WILL. It creates a different mindset because their long-term goal is different than the guy who knows he is not NHL caliber.

You are absolutely correct. Its a double edged sword with the amount of talent BU has - you can make a case they have never had so much talent on the roster as they do now. Not only do they have 11 NHL picks (I believe thats correct) but there was 6 players selected last year and picked high (5 picked in first 45 picks!). The high draft picks historically dont stick around NCAA for their full 4 years. BU has never been in this situation and to be honest I am not sure any NCAA team has. This has the set up to be the Kentucky version of hockey where players come for a short time before they move on to the pro level. These drafted players in no way expect to stay at BU....and neither does the coaching staff. Like it or not BU is being seen as a temporary stop and it does effect the connection fans have with the players.

 

[chickod]

You are absolutely correct. Its a double edged sword with the amount of talent BU has - you can make a case they have never had so much talent on the roster as they do now. Not only do they have 11 NHL picks (I believe thats correct) but there was 6 players selected last year and picked high (5 picked in first 45 picks!). The high draft picks historically dont stick around NCAA for their full 4 years. BU has never been in this situation and to be honest I am not sure any NCAA team has. This has the set up to be the Kentucky version of hockey where players come for a short time before they move on to the pro level. These drafted players in no way expect to stay at BU....and neither does the coaching staff. Like it or not BU is being seen as a temporary stop and it does effect the connection fans have with the players.

This. And with that, I'm moving on to see what the rest of the season brings.

 

[defkit]

Re: BU 2017 Season Thread II: Terriers rising

Also tapping into history, BU has had some draft picks that never smelled the NHL, like Scott Perry and first rounder Jeff Kealty. I'm sure there are many more that others could list. Who was that kid from Vancouver that was drafted by his hometown team, came to BU for one year and has had no career since? Wesley Myron? Something like that.

I think it is perfectly reasonable that a kid who is drafted may be smart enough (perhaps with guidance from good parents) to know that getting drafted means nothing until you actually make the NHL. And that they should view their (potentially) 4 years of free education and a chance to live some of the best years of your life on a team that could compete for some hardware as a gift they should not take for granted.

My point is that not all drafted players are guys who are not invested in the team and view college as a 1 or 2 year stop along the way. Some of them actually are looking forward to playing college hockey and may not want it to end so quickly.

 

[Lemonade]

Re: BU 2017 Season Thread II: Terriers rising

Also tapping into history, BU has had some draft picks that never smelled the NHL, like Scott Perry and first rounder Jeff Kealty. I'm sure there are many more that others could list. Who was that kid from Vancouver that was drafted by his hometown team, came to BU for one year and has had no career since? Wesley Myron? Something like that.

I think it is perfectly reasonable that a kid who is drafted may be smart enough (perhaps with guidance from good parents) to know that getting drafted means nothing until you actually make the NHL. And that they should view their (potentially) 4 years of free education and a chance to live some of the best years of your life on a team that could compete for some hardware as a gift they should not take for granted.

My point is that not all drafted players are guys who are not invested in the team and view college as a 1 or 2 year stop along the way. Some of them actually are looking forward to playing college hockey and may not want it to end so quickly.

I think most draft picks are like that except the high draft picks as they are expected to develop faster. Players want to get to the NHL earlier and earlier so they can start eating away at their Entry level contract years so they can get PAID. NHL teams LOVE players on entry level contracts as they only carry a small cap hit.

 

[Friend_of_BU_Hockey]

Re: BU 2017 Season Thread II: Terriers rising

You are absolutely correct. Its a double edged sword with the amount of talent BU has - you can make a case they have never had so much talent on the roster as they do now. Not only do they have 11 NHL picks (I believe thats correct) but there was 6 players selected last year and picked high (5 picked in first 45 picks!). The high draft picks historically dont stick around NCAA for their full 4 years. BU has never been in this situation and to be honest I am not sure any NCAA team has. This has the set up to be the Kentucky version of hockey where players come for a short time before they move on to the pro level. These drafted players in no way expect to stay at BU....and neither does the coaching staff. Like it or not BU is being seen as a temporary stop and it does effect the connection fans have with the players.

The current NHL collective bargaining agreement does not help. The reality of it is there is more pressure than ever on NHL teams to sign their drafted prospects who choose the NCAA route before they complete their 4 years' eligibility. With most of these players being drafted the Summer before their Freshman year, the clock starts ticking already 'til August 15th 4 years after their draft year.

It's a known risk the current BU staff is taking with building/sustaining the program. In many of these cases, getting even 3 productive years out of these players is considered a success. Guys like O'Regan and Grzelcyk (drafted prospects who played all 4 years) are becoming more of an exception.

Having said that, in looking at BU's incoming class for 2017-2018, Bowers may be the only one that may leave before his Senior year. It's a class that may not be as high-end in talent, but stocked with players that will very likely be 3-4 year contributors the way O'Regan, Grzelcyk, Lane, Ahti, Hohmann, Rodrigues recently were.

 

[chickod]

Re: BU 2017 Season Thread II: Terriers rising

in looking at BU's incoming class for 2017-2018, Bowers may be the only one that may leave before his Senior year. It's a class that may not be as high-end in talent, but stocked with players that will very likely be 3-4 year contributors the way O'Regan, Grzelcyk, Lane, Ahti, Hohmann, Rodrigues recently were.

And that would be good news IMO. The whole has to be greater than the sum of its parts, so the team with the most talent doesn't always win. As they say, "That's why they play the games." Sometimes teams with lesser talent play better as a team. And that's something I would be better able to support. I'd rather see good team play as opposed to disjointed, individual play. It's frustrating to watch a team with all this talent not improve significantly by this point in the season.

 

[Lemonade]

Re: BU 2017 Season Thread II: Terriers rising

The current NHL collective bargaining agreement does not help. The reality of it is there is more pressure than ever on NHL teams to sign their drafted prospects who choose the NCAA route before they complete their 4 years' eligibility. With most of these players being drafted the Summer before their Freshman year, the clock starts ticking already 'til August 15th 4 years after their draft year.

It's a known risk the current BU staff is taking with building/sustaining the program. In many of these cases, getting even 3 productive years out of these players is considered a success. Guys like O'Regan and Grzelcyk (drafted prospects who played all 4 years) are becoming more of an exception.

Having said that, in looking at BU's incoming class for 2017-2018, Bowers may be the only one that may leave before his Senior year. It's a class that may not be as high-end in talent, but stocked with players that will very likely be 3-4 year contributors the way O'Regan, Grzelcyk, Lane, Ahti, Hohmann, Rodrigues recently were.

Very true. NHL teams love the ELC and it promotes to have young kids on the roster it also motivates young players to leave school as soon as possible so they can eat into the 3 year ELC so they can get the big payday sooner...cant blame them at all. It seems the ideal situation is to have 1-2 real blue chip 1st round guys then a bunch of really good players who arent good enough to leave for the NHL early but are good enough to win a National Championship. Having so much talent in one class as BU has isnt ideal for the long term.

 

[Ronnieb]

Re: BU 2017 Season Thread II: Terriers rising

Just goes to show how overrated and overhyped many players can be. All in all, it has been about what I expected of this years Terriers. Probably 20+wins, loss in Bpot, loss in HE tourney and 2 round exit from NCAA's. maybe the recruiting will get better