Big Ten Hockey Conference Pt II - The Exodus

[moose97]

Re: Big Ten Hockey Conference Pt II - The Exodus

So, uh. Ohio State can't get elite recruits, attendance, night games on weekends, or their own rink for playoff games now with a conference that has Notre Dame, Michigan (the only school they really care about beating anyway) ,and Michigan State, but add Wisconsin, Minnesota, and expansion Penn State and suddenly they're a juggernaut that's going to rip the talent right out of poor innocent Denver's hands as opposed to an 15-18-3 team that finishes 4-6th every year because they really don't care, as shown by their attendance, and constant forced movement out of their own rink.

Really, Swami?

Some of the Michigan schools, my own included will take a hit in a scenario where they don't get a couple games yearly vs. Michigan and Michigan State for attendance. We're finding that in Kalamazoo, winning helps as well, so I think we'll survive barring another ten years of Culhane level hockey. The addition of Penn State will mean 18 scholarships, 5-6 that may go to elite talent, but frankly, they're an Eastern school as far as recruiting goes, and you won't even notice it.

UND's "facility is Big-10 level" Er, no. It's better than Big Ten level, if you're talking the average of the BT facilities. Frankly, Magness has nothing to be ashamed of compared to Munn, Yost or the Schott.

If the Big Ten teams suddenly decide down the road they're each going to start pouring money into hockey like they do with football and basketball, go ahead and worry. I think they'll take that tv money and put it back into football to keep up with the SEC, basketball to keep up with the ACC/Big East and continue to treat hockey like the niche sport that it is instead of another arms race, especially when there's no one out there to compete against in that respect.

+1 on everything said here.

I think that to sum up the desire of every single recruit for the BTHC from its formation to perpituity as kids that want to play in the "best conference" negates every kid who has decided to play ECAC hockey and ended up in the NHL. Or the kid who likes to hunt and fish, so decided to go to UMD rather than UMinn, since he doesn't like the big city. Or the afore mentioned kid who doesn't buy into the recruiting ploy of playing time at UMich, and would rather be the "star" at SCSU...

The other point that no one has brought up: there are something like 3500 junior level teams in the US and Canada that theoretically feed into college hockey. Some of those kids choose other paths (CHL, D-III or what-ever). Clearly, with 18 more scholarships, more kids will choose college D-I hockey. There will be more scouts looking for tallent, so just assuming that the tallent will be more spread-out is not necessarily true.

 

[pinch]

Re: Big Ten Hockey Conference Pt II - The Exodus

N Those other rivalries matter and shouldn't be disturbed- like Denver/UND for the WCHA and Miami/Notre Dame for the CCHA which is the biggest rub for each program. That I agree with you on.

Just how long has that Miami/ Notre Dame rivalry existed?... 4 yrs? or do you want to call it 5 yrs?....If anything, I think that makes a case for not getting caught up in todays rivalries---if it is indeed a rivalry, then it is an example of how quickly one can be hatched.

 

[Gurtholfin]

Re: Big Ten Hockey Conference Pt II - The Exodus

I hate to break it to you but this UW and WCHA fan (and apparently many others) could care less about michigan, msu, osu, psu.

Ah, I hate Michigan. I see that M, the maize and the helmets and I want to do something not so nice.

Due to football, Michigan = Nodak (or will once they are in the same conference) for me although nothing can touch the Gophers.

I couldn't care less about the rest but I can also say that about UAA, SCSU, MTU & Mankato

 

[Gurtholfin]

Re: Big Ten Hockey Conference Pt II - The Exodus

So, uh. Ohio State can't get elite recruits, attendance, night games on weekends, or their own rink for playoff games now with a conference that has Notre Dame, Michigan (the only school they really care about beating anyway) ,and Michigan State, but add Wisconsin, Minnesota, and expansion Penn State and suddenly they're a juggernaut that's going to rip the talent right out of poor innocent Denver's hands as opposed to an 15-18-3 team that finishes 4-6th every year because they really don't care, as shown by their attendance, and constant forced movement out of their own rink.

Thankfully this won't be an issue once they join the BTHC as they won't have any home playoff games.

 

[solovsfett]

Re: Big Ten Hockey Conference Pt II - The Exodus

Ah, I hate Michigan. I see that M, the maize and the helmets and I want to do something not so nice.

Due to football, Michigan = Nodak (or will once they are in the same conference) for me although nothing can touch the Gophers.

I couldn't care less about the rest but I can also say that about UAA, SCSU, MTU & Mankato

understood, but Michigan is hapless in football too now so it's tough to work up that ire Imagine walking in and blowing them out by 20 in Ann Arbor

 

[streaker]

Re: Big Ten Hockey Conference Pt II - The Exodus

You and I are focused on different things. I know Michigan has history and won 9 titles. I also know that UW HOCKEY fans mostly could care less about that team and that's because we play them once annually for 17 years and haven't met more than a 2-3 times that I can recall in the playoffs during that stretch.

I watched the Minnesota Vs. Michigan game, the UW vs. MSU and UW vs. UM games this past weekend. At no point were those crowds nearly as racaous as they would have been if DU/Nodak/Minn/UMD/SCSU were in town. and the teams themselves didn't seem too inspired. Hell michigan was alseep that entire game vs. minnesota.

it's a different atmosphere. when the CHS started it was a novelty but playing a team once a year won't create a rivalry.

I'll stand by this: It will take 20 years for the BTHC to form rivalries between UW and Mich, UW and MSU, or PSU or OSU that could come close to Nodak/Minn/Du/CC, etc. AND that's only going to happen if those other B10 teams are competing head to head for the same recruits getting coaches and fans bent out of shape, and the teams being relevant and winning big games against each other in the NCAA tourney.

I don't recall one recruit off the top of my head in 15-20 years that went to michigan over wisconsin or msu over wisconsin that the fanbase was ****ed about. but with Minn/Nodak/CC/Du that's there ad infinitum between all those schools. that stuff matters and helps seal rivalries. Hell UW even has a rivalry with BC in recruiting sort of...

I hate to break it to you but this UW and WCHA fan (and apparently many others) could care less about michigan, msu, osu, psu.

*IF* the B10 happens, then check back in w/me in 15-20 years to see if I hate those teams as much as the rats, the HAKstol fighting sux, or DU

I think you are writing alot and saying nothing.

I already got your point before and I agree about how the BTHC won't create the same rivalries. My point was, you were downplaying Michigan's program in comparison to the *great* WCHA teams. We don't care about Wisconsin and Minnesota, really either until they play. But, to say they don't have a rivalry is incorrect. To say it isn't as strong as your rivalry with U-Minn Mankato... is debatable... frequency doesn't equal a rivalry, beating each other creates that. Just like in the CCHA, Michigan doesn't have a rivalry with many of the schools simply because the records are rather lopsided. It certainly doesn't mean those schools don't dislike Michigan. Two different things.

And who says that Berenson doesn't compete for some of the same recruits? That's pretty presumptive. The difference is, we don't get bent out of shape if you try to steal Kessel out of Minnesota, or land Heatley or if you take a kid on the USNDT. Minnesota tends to recruit most of their players in their state, where Michigan recruits nationally and in Canada. Michigan has the USNDT in their backyard. The teams may be in different hockey conferences, but you guys sure pull out the references to other Big Ten sports when it is convenient. If you didn't care about Michigan, those things wouldn't matter.

 

[streaker]

Re: Big Ten Hockey Conference Pt II - The Exodus

Just how long has that Miami/ Notre Dame rivalry existed?... 4 yrs? or do you want to call it 5 yrs?....If anything, I think that makes a case for not getting caught up in todays rivalries---if it is indeed a rivalry, then it is an example of how quickly one can be hatched.

FWIW, the rivalry with Notre Dame goes back to the WCHA. They jumped to the CCHA with Michigan and MSU. It's more about the rivalries between the schools in all sports, not just ice hockey, which is basically my point about the other Big Ten teams playing ice hockey. Miami's rivalry is fairly new, true. Once again, when both sides of a rivalry win as many as they lose, then it can be defined as such no matter how long it took to get it to that point. Some misguided fans think that just because you develop hatred for a program that it creates a rivalry. It's more about the programs being fairly equal in stature and proximity. I may even say there is an unspoken respect, also.

 

[streaker]

Re: Big Ten Hockey Conference Pt II - The Exodus

understood, but Michigan is hapless in football too now so it's tough to work up that ire Imagine walking in and blowing them out by 20 in Ann Arbor

Hapless? So, did that 4-4 tie go to your heads or something? I recall a period where the Badgers football team couldn't score 48 points in a decade against Michigan. I wouldn't be so apt to write them off for a three year hiccup after basically owning your program for forty years. Besides, your braintrust screwed up big time.

This is from John U. Bacon, a freelance writer and author of several U-M books. His blog can be found at: blog.johnubacon.com

How the Badgers Blew It
November 19, 2010

Since the Michigan and Wisconsin football teams first played each other in 1892, Michigan has won a decisive 80-percent of those games.

The difference was one man: Bo Schembechler, who beat the Badgers 18 of 19 times. If Schembechler had coached Wisconsin, instead of Michigan, the record would be almost even.

That actually almost happened. And it all came down to a 40-minute meeting, 43 years ago.

Schembechler became the head coach of his alma mater, Miami of Ohio, in 1963, at the ripe old age of 33. After Miami won its league title in 1965 and '66, Wisconsin came calling for the head coach.

Wisconsin set up an interview for ten o’clock on a Sunday night. Bo walked in to face twenty guys sitting around a room, looking bored. One of the members actually fell asleep, right in front of Bo – which thrilled him. They also had a student who seemed to relish asking smart-aleck questions – which thrilled him even more.

The whole thing lasted just forty minutes. The second Schembechler got out that door he walked to the nearest pay phone and called the Wisconsin athletic director, and told him to withdraw his name from consideration.

Schembechler already knew they were probably going to hire an assistant coach from Notre Dame anyway, so it was mostly for show. He didn’t appreciate that, either. But Bo knew one thing: even if Wisconsin still wanted him, he no longer wanted Wisconsin.

The process also made Schembechler realize his destination was the Big Ten, and he was going to hold out until he got there.

He turned down Tulane and Pitt, Vanderbilt and Kansas State. Finally, in 1968, Schembechler got a call from Michigan’s outgoing head coach, Bump Elliott, who was recruiting his replacement. Schembechler was interested, of course, but let them know he was not about to go through another dog-and-pony show like Wisconsin’s.

“Michigan didn’t need some silly committee or student rep to check me out,” Bo told me, “and I didn’t need any dime-store tour of the campus to appreciate what Michigan had to offer.”

Two days later, they sealed the deal with a handshake.

A year after Schembechler’s disastrous interview at Wisconsin, the Badgers offered a young basketball coach named Bobby Knight the top job. Knight called Schembechler at six in the morning for his advice.

“I can’t tell you what to do,” Bo said, “but I was unimpressed. If I was in your shoes, I wouldn’t go to Wisconsin.”

Knight didn’t, of course. Two years later, he took the job at Indiana.

The Badgers lost out on a football coach who would go on to win 13 Big Ten titles, and a basketball coach who won eleven more, plus three national titles.

Instead, Wisconsin got a revolving door of five football coaches and six basketball coaches, none of whom ever won a single Big Ten title. They did, however, get shellacked by the coaches they could have had, year after year.

And it was all because of one shabby, 40-minute interview on a Sunday night in 1967.

 

[Gurtholfin]

Re: Big Ten Hockey Conference Pt II - The Exodus

We don't care about Wisconsin and Minnesota, really either until they play. But, to say they don't have a rivalry is incorrect. To say it isn't as strong as your rivalry with U-Minn Mankato... is debatable... frequency doesn't equal a rivalry, beating each other creates that. Just like in the CCHA, Michigan doesn't have a rivalry with many of the schools simply because the records are rather lopsided. It certainly doesn't mean those schools don't dislike Michigan. Two different things.

And who says that Berenson doesn't compete for some of the same recruits? That's pretty presumptive. The difference is, we don't get bent out of shape if you try to steal Kessel out of Minnesota, or land Heatley or if you take a kid on the USNDT. Minnesota tends to recruit most of their players in their state, where Michigan recruits nationally and in Canada. Michigan has the USNDT in their backyard. The teams may be in different hockey conferences, but you guys sure pull out the references to other Big Ten sports when it is convenient. If you didn't care about Michigan, those things wouldn't matter.

I care about Michigan and I agree with your premise that there is in fact a rivalry with Michigan and it stems from both of us having top-quality hockey programs for years and our inability to consistently beat you in football. I loathe maize & blue (have I mentioned that?) and I enjoy beating you in hockey and basketball and consistently root against you. When you play Notre Dame in football, I can't watch coz I just want the bleachers to collapse.

I would put you ahead of everyone in the WCHA in terms of who I'd like to see us play except for Minny and Nodak. Mankato? Going to see us play them is near torture.

About the Kessel thing. I don't think we typically get too bent about players going elsewhere. I don't care about the kid currently at Minny or the one at Nodak. Kessel was a special case of an extremely talented hometown kid that went to the mortal enemy. Growing up, he was coached by Badgers and former Badgers and gave every indication that he would be a Badger. At the time, it seemed like a betrayal of the worst kind, relative of course to sports. Favre has put it in perspective, a little.

I will enjoy having you guys in conference at some point in the future, even though I'd prefer the status quo over a BTHC. It would be nice if we had a non-con series (2 games) with you every season along with the same against MSU.

FWIW, the rivalry with Notre Dame goes back to the WCHA. They jumped to the CCHA with Michigan and MSU. It's more about the rivalries between the schools in all sports, not just ice hockey, which is basically my point about the other Big Ten teams playing ice hockey. Miami's rivalry is fairly new, true. Once again, when both sides of a rivalry win as many as they lose, then it can be defined as such no matter how long it took to get it to that point. Some misguided fans think that just because you develop hatred for a program that it creates a rivalry. It's more about the programs being fairly equal in stature and proximity. I may even say there is an unspoken respect, also.

Well said. I think a good example of this was the past 15 years of the Hawks and Wings. Hawks fans had an irrational hatred and inferiority complex when it came to the Wings, but they were so bad that the Wings and their fans barely noticed. The hatred on one side was real, but that alone does not make a rivalry.

There are lots of programs in the WCHA (all of them ) who hate the Badgers, but that doesn't make them our rivals. We have to know they exist for us to care and that limits it to only a few actual WCHA rivals.

I would even say that I don't consider Denver our "rival." They're a great program that I respect, but there's no real hatred there like there is for Minnesota and North Dakota.

I love your last sentence also although I'd never admit in public that I respect Minnesota's hockey program, although I do. Oops!

 

[Gurtholfin]

Re: Big Ten Hockey Conference Pt II - The Exodus

And it was all because of one shabby, 40-minute interview on a Sunday night in 1967.

Nothing we can do about any of that now. We're clearly on a better path for about the past 20 years than we were.

The history of a program is important, but so is the present and if I could only have one, I'll take the present. I say this in regards to places that don't have much going for them or are only good at one sport. I'm sure you will be good in football again and I actually look forward to that day as it used to be the best game (or at least, most anticipated) of the season when the Wolverines would come to town. As good as OSU has been, I'd still rather see us against you when you're good.

 

[pinch]

Re: Big Ten Hockey Conference Pt II - The Exodus

FWIW, the rivalry with Notre Dame goes back to the WCHA.

Not sure I follow...are you saying that Notre Dame has a rivalry with Mich and MSU going back to their time together in the WCHA? Why because they played in the same league? I think with the exception of the last 5 yrs, Notre Dame hockey has been about as irrelevant as any....do you want to throw MTU in there because they too have been in the CCHA and WCHA with everyone?

My point earlier was that ND/ Miami is hardly a long standing rivalry.... ND and anyone has not been a big deal for almost forever.... new rivalries are easily formed.... if the BT teams play each other 4x a yr and compete well against each other, the Gophers and Wisc will soon hate Mich, MSU OSU and PSU.

 

[bigmrg74]

Re: Big Ten Hockey Conference Pt II - The Exodus

I also don't see the imminent demise of the other schools after tBTHC forms. There are only so many roster spots available. Swami, if you took the best player off the other teams in the WCHA and sent them to Minnesota, wouldn't UND or DU still be pretty good? I think all tBTHC does is shuffle players at most. What would hurt the smaller schools would be if the PAC10 or SEC conferences started D1 hockey. They have no recruiting base and would have to lure players from Minn or Mich to play for them.

The only good thing that I would see from the SEC or PAC12(Might as well get used to calling em that now), is that would put quite a few more bodies out there to go after kids and their parents, and have them thinking about going College instead of the MJ route. a good 20 or so guys scouting from those schools with a decent budget to go after kids would help make a few more parents and kids aware of the College route, and that could just end up benefiting the smaller schools in finding kids that just happen to luck into kids that have at least kept the College route open long enough for those smaller schools to find them.

 

[solovsfett]

Re: Big Ten Hockey Conference Pt II - The Exodus

I think you are writing alot and saying nothing.

I already got your point before and I agree about how the BTHC won't create the same rivalries. My point was, you were downplaying Michigan's program in comparison to the *great* WCHA teams. We don't care about Wisconsin and Minnesota, really either until they play. But, to say they don't have a rivalry is incorrect. To say it isn't as strong as your rivalry with U-Minn Mankato... is debatable... frequency doesn't equal a rivalry, beating each other creates that. Just like in the CCHA, Michigan doesn't have a rivalry with many of the schools simply because the records are rather lopsided. It certainly doesn't mean those schools don't dislike Michigan. Two different things.

And who says that Berenson doesn't compete for some of the same recruits? That's pretty presumptive. The difference is, we don't get bent out of shape if you try to steal Kessel out of Minnesota, or land Heatley or if you take a kid on the USNDT. Minnesota tends to recruit most of their players in their state, where Michigan recruits nationally and in Canada. Michigan has the USNDT in their backyard. The teams may be in different hockey conferences, but you guys sure pull out the references to other Big Ten sports when it is convenient. If you didn't care about Michigan, those things wouldn't matter.

oh god. it looks you are upset that UW has no real rivalry with michigan. they don't in hockey.

try back in 15-20 years after the bthc and we'll see.

 

[solovsfett]

Re: Big Ten Hockey Conference Pt II - The Exodus

Hapless? So, did that 4-4 tie go to your heads or something? I recall a period where the Badgers football team couldn't score 48 points in a decade against Michigan. I wouldn't be so apt to write them off for a three year hiccup after basically owning your program for forty years. Besides, your braintrust screwed up big time.

This is from John U. Bacon, a freelance writer and author of several U-M books. His blog can be found at: blog.johnubacon.com

How the Badgers Blew It
November 19, 2010

Since the Michigan and Wisconsin football teams first played each other in 1892, Michigan has won a decisive 80-percent of those games.

The difference was one man: Bo Schembechler, who beat the Badgers 18 of 19 times. If Schembechler had coached Wisconsin, instead of Michigan, the record would be almost even.

That actually almost happened. And it all came down to a 40-minute meeting, 43 years ago.

Schembechler became the head coach of his alma mater, Miami of Ohio, in 1963, at the ripe old age of 33. After Miami won its league title in 1965 and '66, Wisconsin came calling for the head coach.

Wisconsin set up an interview for ten o’clock on a Sunday night. Bo walked in to face twenty guys sitting around a room, looking bored. One of the members actually fell asleep, right in front of Bo – which thrilled him. They also had a student who seemed to relish asking smart-aleck questions – which thrilled him even more.

The whole thing lasted just forty minutes. The second Schembechler got out that door he walked to the nearest pay phone and called the Wisconsin athletic director, and told him to withdraw his name from consideration.

Schembechler already knew they were probably going to hire an assistant coach from Notre Dame anyway, so it was mostly for show. He didn’t appreciate that, either. But Bo knew one thing: even if Wisconsin still wanted him, he no longer wanted Wisconsin.

The process also made Schembechler realize his destination was the Big Ten, and he was going to hold out until he got there.

He turned down Tulane and Pitt, Vanderbilt and Kansas State. Finally, in 1968, Schembechler got a call from Michigan’s outgoing head coach, Bump Elliott, who was recruiting his replacement. Schembechler was interested, of course, but let them know he was not about to go through another dog-and-pony show like Wisconsin’s.

“Michigan didn’t need some silly committee or student rep to check me out,” Bo told me, “and I didn’t need any dime-store tour of the campus to appreciate what Michigan had to offer.”

Two days later, they sealed the deal with a handshake.

A year after Schembechler’s disastrous interview at Wisconsin, the Badgers offered a young basketball coach named Bobby Knight the top job. Knight called Schembechler at six in the morning for his advice.

“I can’t tell you what to do,” Bo said, “but I was unimpressed. If I was in your shoes, I wouldn’t go to Wisconsin.”

Knight didn’t, of course. Two years later, he took the job at Indiana.

The Badgers lost out on a football coach who would go on to win 13 Big Ten titles, and a basketball coach who won eleven more, plus three national titles.

Instead, Wisconsin got a revolving door of five football coaches and six basketball coaches, none of whom ever won a single Big Ten title. They did, however, get shellacked by the coaches they could have had, year after year.

And it was all because of one shabby, 40-minute interview on a Sunday night in 1967.

in the end I could care less about michigan football, and the extent of my love for Badger football is well, a very distant 4th place to UW hockey, F1/IRL, and Blackhawks.

football was brought up by gurtholfin and I responded to it. obviously michigan has owned UW in football over the years. so what? let's get back to hockey where I still don't care about michigan and probably won't except to desire to see UW pass them eventually in NCAA titles.

so in a nutshell for me: I love the WCHA. I don't care about the CCHA including msu/osu/mich. and who is psu?

 

[Puck Swami]

Re: Big Ten Hockey Conference Pt II - The Exodus

+1 on everything said here.

I think that to sum up the desire of every single recruit for the BTHC from its formation to perpituity as kids that want to play in the "best conference" negates every kid who has decided to play ECAC hockey and ended up in the NHL. Or the kid who likes to hunt and fish, so decided to go to UMD rather than UMinn, since he doesn't like the big city. Or the afore mentioned kid who doesn't buy into the recruiting ploy of playing time at UMich, and would rather be the "star" at SCSU...

The other point that no one has brought up: there are something like 3500 junior level teams in the US and Canada that theoretically feed into college hockey. Some of those kids choose other paths (CHL, D-III or what-ever). Clearly, with 18 more scholarships, more kids will choose college D-I hockey. There will be more scouts looking for tallent, so just assuming that the tallent will be more spread-out is not necessarily true.

I agree with much of this when you are talking about the average D-I recruit who chooses a school based on traditional criteria - coaching staff, teammates, chance to win championships, playing time, academics, lifestyle. closeness to home, facility, TV exposure etc, campus. etc. But when we're talking about the very top recruits, we are talking about 'competitive level' rising to be among the most important attributes. The best players tend to want to play against the best players for their development arcs and will be prodded by NHL teams who hold their draft rights and their advisors to choose in the best possible development situation. The top guys all know that playing time isn't a big issue - they are all going to play. These prospects tend want to play against the best teams, week in and week out to speed their development, since the NHL is consistently looking for younger, cheaper players that the colleges provide. I still believe the shifting of 30-40 high level prospects from non-d-I western programs toward the big 10 roster openings will happen, and the effects of that talent shift may well create a two-tier system of talent in the west. Ohio State may well finish .500 or worse in the Big 10, but I think they'll be doing it with high level players who would have otherwise been at Miami or Notre Dame or Denver.

For the programs left behind in a reduced WCHA or CCHA, it creates a better opportunity to win more and finish higher, but as a bigger fish in a smaller mid-major pond. Your team may win more games without the Big 10 teams in the league, but when you face the Big 10 teams in non-conference play or NCAA play, it's going to be much more of an upset to beat them, because the lower level of the league will mean less talented players. I could a see big market opening up for more overage players in the reduced WCHA and CCHA to offset talent loss with experience.

Long term, the effects will be different for attendence by team. North Dakota probably won't be much affected at the gate, since they are the top sports attraction in the state, and have little competition in the winter. I know Denver will take a hit - probably a 15-20% reduction in ticket sales. We already can see the difference between playing top teams and lower division teams - attendance goes down by 1,000 -2,000 seats in a 6,000 seat house for the lower division teams. When you no longer have the Big 10 teams to provide sellouts, your brand perception drops along with the revenue. Instead of the Gophers, you get MSUM instead. I think DU is going to have a hard time selling MSUM tickets at $30 if there are no Big 10 teams coming also. CC has already slashed ticket prices this year to try to get people to come out - that may be the wave of the future,...

 

[aparch]

Re: Big Ten Hockey Conference Pt II - The Exodus

... I could a see big market opening up for more overage players in the reduced WCHA and CCHA to offset talent loss with experience.

It's already happening.

Taking a quick scan of the rosters on USCHO and dumping the data into Excel, here are the average ages of the teams in the WCHA (I didn't bother going through to find the missing birthdates, so some teams may be skewed):

Bemidji 22.58
UAA 22.47
MSUM 22.21
MTU 21.83
SCSU 21.82
UND 21.52
tUMD 21.45
UMN 21.41
UNO 21.24
Denver 21.06
UW 21
CC 20.94


*EDIT* And here's the CCHA.
UAF 22.52
LSSU 22.5
FSU 22.1
tOSU 22
NMU 21.94
WMU 21.85
BGSU 21.63
Miami 21.32
ND 21.31
MSU 21.14
UM 20.89

 

[streaker]

Re: Big Ten Hockey Conference Pt II - The Exodus

Not sure I follow...are you saying that Notre Dame has a rivalry with Mich and MSU going back to their time together in the WCHA? Why because they played in the same league? I think with the exception of the last 5 yrs, Notre Dame hockey has been about as irrelevant as any....do you want to throw MTU in there because they too have been in the CCHA and WCHA with everyone?

My point earlier was that ND/ Miami is hardly a long standing rivalry.... ND and anyone has not been a big deal for almost forever.... new rivalries are easily formed.... if the BT teams play each other 4x a yr and compete well against each other, the Gophers and Wisc will soon hate Mich, MSU OSU and PSU.

No, what I am saying is that rivalries tend to cross over sports between schools. For example: MSU is Michigan's in state rival- no one else comes close. BUT, they have for the most part have been decent in hockey, supreme in basketball and downtrodden in football. Those things spill over no matter how good you are, or no matter what sport you are referring to. Same applies with Notre Dame who, for the most part short of the past decade, had a good football program to anchor rivalries with Michigan (and MSU). So when Jackson took over, the program revived- which was good for the CCHA and it kickstarted a dormant hockey fanbase. It doesn't mean that, between the schools, we were not rivals. Same can be said between Michigan and Ohio State which is a rivalry no matter what the competition is. They would actually prefer that Michigan's football program return to a competitive state because, as much fun as it is kicking our tails annually, it does nothing for the rivalry. Think big picture when you think rivalries, not myopically about just one or two sports or even beyond sports.

 

[uaafanblog]

Re: Big Ten Hockey Conference Pt II - The Exodus

Long term, the effects will be different for attendence by team. North Dakota probably won't be much affected at the gate, since they are the top sports attraction in the state, and have little competition in the winter. I know Denver will take a hit - probably a 15-20% reduction in ticket sales. We already can see the difference between playing top teams and lower division teams - attendance goes down by 1,000 -2,000 seats in a 6,000 seat house for the lower division teams. When you no longer have the Big 10 teams to provide sellouts, your brand perception drops along with the revenue. Instead of the Gophers, you get MSUM instead. I think DU is going to have a hard time selling MSUM tickets at $30 if there are no Big 10 teams coming also. CC has already slashed ticket prices this year to try to get people to come out - that may be the wave of the future,...

Sorry I have to take exception with another of your estimates. I specifically looked at attendance numbers for DU over a 3 year span. I counted the attendance versus UofM and Udub and CC then compared it to attendance versus 4 traditionally lower-tier non-mid-major bottom-feeding noname schools (took about an hour ... I encourage you to do it yourself). The average attendance dropped not quite 500 fans. So you'd be closer by saying 10%. Goddard is aware of this "mini-study" though I apologize for not being able to pinpoint what venue I published it (making me think it was in the comments section of his blog somewhere ... so not easy to find) at least a year ago.

There are two possible solutions for DU regarding future attendance in a BTHC world. Drop your lowest ticket price and actually market the program. The revenue concerns you express are certainly NOT going to be addressed by starting a BHHC. Especially considering you'll go back to having to abide by the 34 game limit. How much is the gate from a well attended home series at DU? $300,000+ I'd estimate.

 

[streaker]

Re: Big Ten Hockey Conference Pt II - The Exodus

I care about Michigan and I agree with your premise that there is in fact a rivalry with Michigan and it stems from both of us having top-quality hockey programs for years and our inability to consistently beat you in football. I loathe maize & blue (have I mentioned that?) and I enjoy beating you in hockey and basketball and consistently root against you. When you play Notre Dame in football, I can't watch coz I just want the bleachers to collapse.

I would put you ahead of everyone in the WCHA in terms of who I'd like to see us play except for Minny and Nodak. Mankato? Going to see us play them is near torture.

About the Kessel thing. I don't think we typically get too bent about players going elsewhere. I don't care about the kid currently at Minny or the one at Nodak. Kessel was a special case of an extremely talented hometown kid that went to the mortal enemy. Growing up, he was coached by Badgers and former Badgers and gave every indication that he would be a Badger. At the time, it seemed like a betrayal of the worst kind, relative of course to sports. Favre has put it in perspective, a little.

I will enjoy having you guys in conference at some point in the future, even though I'd prefer the status quo over a BTHC. It would be nice if we had a non-con series (2 games) with you every season along with the same against MSU.



Well said. I think a good example of this was the past 15 years of the Hawks and Wings. Hawks fans had an irrational hatred and inferiority complex when it came to the Wings, but they were so bad that the Wings and their fans barely noticed. The hatred on one side was real, but that alone does not make a rivalry.

There are lots of programs in the WCHA (all of them ) who hate the Badgers, but that doesn't make them our rivals. We have to know they exist for us to care and that limits it to only a few actual WCHA rivals.

I would even say that I don't consider Denver our "rival." They're a great program that I respect, but there's no real hatred there like there is for Minnesota and North Dakota.

I love your last sentence also although I'd never admit in public that I respect Minnesota's hockey program, although I do. Oops!

Glad that we can come to some common ground. Seems that Solovsfett doesn't agree with our definition of a rivalry. To each his own, I guess.

 

[Gurtholfin]

Re: Big Ten Hockey Conference Pt II - The Exodus

Glad that we can come to some common ground. Seems that Solovsfett doesn't agree with our definition of a rivalry. To each his own, I guess.

He gets his opinion. I'll allow it.

I think he's saying that he personally doesn't look at it as a rivalry. I agree that if hockey stood alone, it wouldn't be much of one, despite both of us being very good for a long time.

Taken in the context of all sports, I can tell you that there are a lot of people in Madison who don't like Michigan, stemming mostly from football, but carrying into the other sports.

In addition, there's that begrudging respect thing. I think I'm going to be sick...