Best D-I Rivalries

[Sean Pickett]

Re: Best D-I Rivalries

From a competition aspect, I don't think it makes sense for Ohio State to play Mercyhurst. Outside of the one-time blip last year with the Badgers, UMD, UM, and UW are top-ten teams every year. Now it looks like North Dakota will be as well...I think a team like Ohio State that has at least a theoretical chance at qualifying each season as an at large team would be better off scheduling teams like Providence or Northeastern, that OSU a chance to sweep if the Buckeyes have a great season, but play in a conference that includes some strong opponents. It matters less to teams like SCSU and BSU that aren't likely to make the NCAAs w/o winning the WCHA tournament.

I think it's a bit premature to consider UND a perennial top 10 team, but I'm not going to argue the point. However, You mention scheduling NU or PC instead of Mercyhurst and I would like to ask why? NU is currently a top-10 team and PC has been one regularly in the past. I see no reason to think they are any less likely to be top-10 teams in the future instead of Mercyhurst and/or UND.

 

[pgb-ohio]

Re: Best D-I Rivalries

That's a solid analysis, ARM. And it could very well be why the OSU powers that be have delayed scheduling Mercyhurst. If so, maybe we have been guilty of a bit of dodging.

NCAA prospects are a major concern, but they aren't the only concern. Geography does matter. I believe we fly to every conference series, though I'm not sure about Madison. But anyhow, it does make sense to save a buck or two when traveling for nc play. And of course Geography matters for rivalry purposes; familiarity may indeed breed contempt -- though hopefully a healthy brand of contempt. So from at least from a geography point of view, scheduling Mercyhurst would offer a plus or two.

Every year when the new schedule comes out, I'm excited to receive it. If a future schedule happens to include Mercyhurst, my reaction would be: So much the better! Admittedly "bring it on" isn't always the shrewdest viewpoint.

 

[ARM]

Re: Best D-I Rivalries

However, You mention scheduling NU or PC instead of Mercyhurst and I would like to ask why? NU is currently a top-10 team and PC has been one regularly in the past. I see no reason to think they are any less likely to be top-10 teams in the future instead of Mercyhurst and/or UND.

All top-ten teams are not created equal. Since the NCAA field expanded to eight teams in 2005, NU and PC have qualified for one tournament combined. Mercyhurst has been in the field every year. I've seen all of these teams this season except PC. If I graded them on talent alone, I'd give MC an 8.5 to 9.0. UND would get something in the 7.0 to 7.5 range. Northeastern is tough to judge, because so much of their talent is in their goalie, and the day I saw them, they got outshot and outskated by a St. Cloud team that people want to drop to D-III. Maybe a 5.5 to 6.0 for NU? I think Bemidji State is a better team. I know Ohio State is a more-talented team, whether or not the records reflect it. So that's why I suggest Ohio State should play teams the caliber of PC and NU, that they'd have a chance to beat, while having some positive impact on their RPI.

EDIT: And I realize this is tough for the schedule makers to judge. I'm sure Minnesota thought that they were getting a lot more risk/reward out of Clarkson and Harvard than has proved to be the case. Given they were both NCAA teams last year, as was UNH, things can change fast.

 

[OnMAA]

Re: Best D-I Rivalries

EDIT: And I realize this is tough for the schedule makers to judge. I'm sure Minnesota thought that they were getting a lot more risk/reward out of Clarkson and Harvard than has proved to be the case. Given they were both NCAA teams last year, as was UNH, things can change fast.

IMHO one of the reasons for the large shifts in some cases is the returning Olympians. If you look at the current top 8 virtually all of them have one or more returning Olympians, while some of the teams from last years NCAA tourney no longer in the top 8 don't have any. The Olympic factor can explain vast improvements over last year for most of the eight teams in the current top 8.

 

[ARM]

Re: Best D-I Rivalries

IMHO one of the reasons for the large shifts in some cases is the returning Olympians. If you look at the current top 8 virtually all of them have one or more returning Olympians, while some of the teams from last years NCAA tourney no longer in the top 8 don't have any. The Olympic factor can explain vast improvements over last year for most of the eight teams in the current top 8.

That's true to a certain extent. BU, BC, UW, and UND are the top teams that to date are much better than they were last year, and they all have Olympians who were not on their rosters last season. Harvard, Clarkson, and UNH have dropped, and they don't have an Olympic infusion. I don't know that we can point to returning Olympians as the main reason that UMD, Cornell, and Mercyhurst are ahead of these teams, because they were already ahead of them by the end of last season. Minnesota is the one team that's been in the top 8 pretty much the whole way without any added players from the Olympics. Meanwhile, teams like Northeastern, Providence, Quinnipiac, Bemidji State, Dartmouth, and Ohio State are in roughly the same spots or better than they were in last year nationally, and they don't have returning Olympians either. So I think the rapid drops are more a matter of some teams not playing as well, rather than caused by others getting stronger.

 

[BozIce99]

Re: Best D-I Rivalries

For the growth of the game, why not allow 2 more games to be played per NCAA standards.
Since your conference games are already at the theoretical limit, these then would be OC games
scheduled independently or as part of a tourney. Also, you could bring back the 3rd game of a 4-team invite.
The marginal cost of this last idea would be a low expense way to play the extra games.

IIRC the NCAA clause that allows games to be played in Alaska that don't count against games played is
not used by the women. Therefore, let's create/adapt to a realistic rule that can be used by all.

 

[myStuff]

Re: Best D-I Rivalries

It could be Mercyhurst but you refuse to play us.

Could be....They are justifiably afraid to play Hurst

 

[dave1381]

Re: Best D-I Rivalries

For the growth of the game, why not allow 2 more games to be played per NCAA standards.
Since your conference games are already at the theoretical limit, these then would be OC games
scheduled independently or as part of a tourney. Also, you could bring back the 3rd game of a 4-team invite.
The marginal cost of this last idea would be a low expense way to play the extra games.

IIRC the NCAA clause that allows games to be played in Alaska that don't count against games played is
not used by the women. Therefore, let's create/adapt to a realistic rule that can be used by all.

The season is long enough as is, and most teams aren't doing enough with the potential nonconference games they have on their schedule.

 

[OnMAA]

Re: Best D-I Rivalries

For the growth of the game, why not allow 2 more games to be played per NCAA standards.
.

Seems to happen in some cases already. SLU and Clarkson play each other four times this year, twice in NC games and twice in ECAC Conference games.

 

[pgb-ohio]

Re: Best D-I Rivalries

Could be....They are justifiably afraid to play Hurst

A little late to this class, aren't we?

Make-Up Work: Posts #20 & #22

New Material: I've been behind our Women's Varsity program since Day 1. This thread is the first time I've ever been confronted with the thought our schedule is somehow deficient. I certainly don't mind being challenged, and I'm sure the actual decision-makers feel the same way. But I've got to say that nothing has changed my mind. Our schedule is fine.

The thread has caused me to reflect a bit on OSU vs. CHA match-ups. I do think we should play the CHA regularly, for geographic and other reasons. Still, speakly only as one fan, I don't see any reason Mercyhurst should have a special place on our schedule. Nor should they be uniquely excluded. It might work well to play each CHA team once before scheduling any repeats. Then, once we've played everyone, start a new cycle. Just a thought.

The one exception I'd make is Penn State. If PSU's new team were to join the CHA, I'd be immediately in favor of an annual series. I truly mean no disrespect to the current members of the CHA. But match-ups with Big Ten Universities take precedence at Ohio State, and no doubt always will.

 

[granddaddyscout]

Re: Best D-I Rivalries

A little late to this class, aren't we?

Make-Up Work: Posts #20 & #22

New Material: I've been behind our Women's Varsity program since Day 1. This thread is the first time I've ever been confronted with the thought our schedule is somehow deficient. I certainly don't mind being challenged, and I'm sure the actual decision-makers feel the same way. But I've got to say that nothing has changed my mind. Our schedule is fine.

The thread has caused me to reflect a bit on OSU vs. CHA match-ups. I do think we should play the CHA regularly, for geographic and other reasons. Still, speakly only as one fan, I don't see any reason Mercyhurst should have a special place on our schedule. Nor should they be uniquely excluded. It might work well to play each CHA team once before scheduling any repeats. Then, once we've played everyone, start a new cycle. Just a thought.

The one exception I'd make is Penn State. If PSU's new team were to join the CHA, I'd be immediately in favor of an annual series. I truly mean no disrespect to the current members of the CHA. But match-ups with Big Ten Universities take precedence at Ohio State, and no doubt always will.

What about OSU joining the CHA with Penn State? More than half the current roster comes from Ontario, Michigan, PA, and NY so you would be covering that geography more effectively. OSU would be an instant leader in the CHA and could use its Big Ten ties to maintain a relationship with the Badgers and Minny. It doesn't seem likely that OSU is going to generate enough wins in the WCHA to make it to the NCAA any time soon with the improvements by ND and Bemidji. That would give the CHA an auto bid which would then more likely create a meaningful rivalry with Mercyhurst.

 

[pgb-ohio]

Re: Best D-I Rivalries

What about OSU joining the CHA...

We've been at this crossroads before, about six years ago. There were good arguments in favor of the move, there were good arguments in favor of staying in the WCHA. I truly believe the correct decision was made, and am not especially eager to revisit it.

...with Penn State?

Of course Penn State would change the mix. Enough to reopen the question? I dunno. The trouble is Penn State might be just passing through on its way to either the Women's WCHA, or a Women's BTHC. And if Penn State was our main reason for joining, we'd just be passing through too. That's a lot of instability for all concerned. I'm not sure the current CHA would want us on this basis, or if they even should.

More than half the current roster comes from Ontario, Michigan, PA, and NY so you would be covering that geography more effectively.

Recruiting gains in the Central & Mid-Atlantic areas? Perhaps. But wouldn't there be offsetting recruiting losses in the Upper Midwest? Almost certainly yes. Sounds like a wash -- at best.

OSU would be an instant leader in the CHA...

Slow down, if only a little. Just a moment ago we were too frightened to schedule CHA teams, and now we're an instant leader?

OK, I get your drift. Our W/L record against CHA teams is decent. I'm sure our aggregate winning percentage is better against the CHA than it is in WCHA conference play. But beyond stating those facts, let's not disrespect the current CHA teams.

... and could use its Big Ten ties to maintain a relationship with the Badgers and Minny.

Probably. But most likely not 4 games per season. By analogy, note that while OSU's CCHA Men's Hockey team has played the Gophers and Badgers in recent years, the games aren't even close to annual affairs.

It doesn't seem likely that OSU is going to generate enough wins in the WCHA to make it to the NCAA any time soon with the improvements by ND and Bemidji.

I won't concede that point. We swept Bemidji over Thanksgiving. The Lam Twins made UND instantly better, but where that program will be in the long run remains to be seen. Where all three programs will be in the long run remains to be seen.

That would give the CHA an auto bid which would then more likely create a meaningful rivalry with Mercyhurst.

The autobid would be a good thing for the CHA, and the meaningful rivalry apparently appeals to Mercyhurst. Someone would need to explain to me why these are good things for Ohio State.

You pose a good question, but my inclination is to stay put.

Please understand that this is just one person's opinion, and an entirely unofficial opinion at that.

 

[ARM]

Re: Best D-I Rivalries

The autobid would be a good thing for the CHA, and the meaningful rivalry apparently appeals to Mercyhurst. Someone would need to explain to me why these are good things for Ohio State.

My first thought is that a move to the CHA would not necessarily benefit Ohio State's recruiting. The Buckeyes are attracting some big-time players where they are. If the program's only goal is to get to an NCAA tournament, then maybe the CHA would offer some plusses. A program like tOSU more likely wants to win championships, not just get into tournaments, and I think they have a better chance of doing that in the WCHA.

 

[granddaddyscout]

Re: Best D-I Rivalries

UW will remain strong. To win an NCAA Championship you have to get to the tournament. As far as recruiting I don't see them getting the top recruits out of Minnesota or Wisconsin ever, their current horses are from Ontario and one would think it might be easier to attract more if they are playing teams closer to Ontario. Just some thoughts for discussion

 

[MICZamboni]

Re: Best D-I Rivalries

Or Ohio St can just be stuck in mediocrity in the WCHA!!!

 

[pgb-ohio]

Re: Best D-I Rivalries

...To win an NCAA Championship you have to get to the tournament. As far as recruiting I don't see them getting the top recruits out of Minnesota or Wisconsin ever, their current horses are from Ontario and one would think it might be easier to attract more if they are playing teams closer to Ontario. Just some thoughts for discussion.

Thoughts worth discussing, but I tend to agree with ARM. The top recruits have their eyes on their national teams, and will want to play against the best possible competition at the college level. At least right now, that means the WCHA. (ducks for cover)

Also, we've gotten many fine players from the Upper Midwest over the years. This year our top 3 scorers are from Ontario, meaning Spooner, McIntosh and Langen. I suppose that's who you're referring to. But this isn't always the case. A few seasons back Erin Keys was at or near the top of the scoring list. And that's just one example off the top of my head.

 

[pgb-ohio]

Re: Best D-I Rivalries

Or Ohio St can just be stuck in mediocrity in the WCHA!!!

I don't have time to do the numbers right now. But if you compiled an all-time standings for the Women's WCHA, I'm fairly certain we'd be in 4th. We haven't been able to crack the big three of UM, UMD & UW. But neither has anyone else in Women's D-1 since the WCHA was formed. Unless you're prepared to hang the mediocre label on every single team besides the top three, I won't accept it for OSU.

 

[osualum86]

Re: Best D-I Rivalries

I don't have time to do the numbers right now. But if you compiled an all-time standings for the Women's WCHA, I'm fairly certain we'd be in 4th. We haven't been able to crack the big three of UM, UMD & UW. But neither has anyone else in Women's D-1 since the WCHA was formed. Unless you're prepared to hang the mediocre label on every single team besides the top three, I won't accept it for OSU.

Exactly! Every single National Title in women's hockey has been won by either UMD (5), Wisconsin (3), or Minnesota (2), so I guess everyone else is mediocre, there, MICZamboni.

 

[pgb-ohio]

Re: Best D-I Rivalries

It doesn't change anything for this conversation, but do remember the longer history.

The 10 titles mentioned were sponsored by the NCAA. Up to that point, the AWCHA sponsored the title, and those championships are just as legitimate as those from the NCAA era. IIRC, Minnesota won the last one of those in 2000. Harvard won the tournament in 1999 and New Hamphshire took home top honors in 1998.

Edit: As I've since learned, the history actually stretches back to the late '70's, pre-AWCHA.

 

[granddaddyscout]

Re: Best D-I Rivalries

It doesn't change anything for this conversation, but do remember the longer history.

The 10 titles mentioned were sponsored by the NCAA. Up to that point, the AWCHA sponsored the title, and those championships are just as legitimate as those from the NCAA era. IIRC, Minnesota won the last one of those. Previously, Eastern schools like Harvard and Providence took home top honors. Again IIRC, the history actually stretches back into the mid-80's.

Not sure I can agree with you here pbg. The difference between "club" and NCAA D-1 status is significant and the titles are not comparable at all. The ability to offer athletic scolarships created a completely different landscape. Brown was a dominant team in that era as an example.