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Ard-uscho poy
- Thread starter KTDC
- Start date
bluffrinkrat
New member
Re: Ard-uscho poy
I'm coming around to the idea of having a separate award just for goalies partly because they rarely get chosen for the Patty Kazmaier anyway. It could be called the Vetter/Desbiens award for two of the finest goalies to ever play. But the eastern schools might get upset so maybe the Brewer/Vetter/Desbiens award. Looking at that it's probably not a good idea either because of the acronym.
There should be some award just for goalies mainly so 50 goals by a forward doesn't have to be compared to a .960 save percentage and 21 shutouts which may be impossible to do realistically other than in someone's alternate hockey universe.
Ann Renee Desbiens was named USCHO player of the year.
Well deserved!!
The article written by Arlan has some good humor about kitchen sinks and non-native English speakers
I'm coming around to the idea of having a separate award just for goalies partly because they rarely get chosen for the Patty Kazmaier anyway. It could be called the Vetter/Desbiens award for two of the finest goalies to ever play. But the eastern schools might get upset so maybe the Brewer/Vetter/Desbiens award. Looking at that it's probably not a good idea either because of the acronym.
There should be some award just for goalies mainly so 50 goals by a forward doesn't have to be compared to a .960 save percentage and 21 shutouts which may be impossible to do realistically other than in someone's alternate hockey universe.
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FiveHoleFrenzy
Well-known member
Re: Ard-uscho poy
Interesting numbers in games against Minnesota (if my math is correct).
6 games
W - L - 3-3
GA - 14
GAA - 2.33
SV% - .919
So if you throw those numbers out of ARD's stats, the numbers against the rest are crazy.
32 games
W - L - 30-1-1
GA - 15
GAA - 0.47
SV% - .972
Interesting numbers in games against Minnesota (if my math is correct).
6 games
W - L - 3-3
GA - 14
GAA - 2.33
SV% - .919
So if you throw those numbers out of ARD's stats, the numbers against the rest are crazy.
32 games
W - L - 30-1-1
GA - 15
GAA - 0.47
SV% - .972
Re: Ard-uscho poy
And if you throw out Minnesota's stats against UW Minnesota's stats over the last couple of years are crazy. Just goes to show how good ARD was this season. As far as I know, she still has some record breaking stats for a goalie.
And if you throw out Minnesota's stats against UW Minnesota's stats over the last couple of years are crazy. Just goes to show how good ARD was this season. As far as I know, she still has some record breaking stats for a goalie.
Re: Ard-uscho poy
I wouldn't say she got screwed on the Kaz, but with the timing of the voting (right after conference tournament first rounds), things were much more favored for Coyne than Desbiens.
I wouldn't say she got screwed on the Kaz, but with the timing of the voting (right after conference tournament first rounds), things were much more favored for Coyne than Desbiens.
Re: Ard-uscho poy
I would say Desbiens was a more deserving candidate for the Kaz.
Edit: I would say the article outlines the issue quite well. She didn't get the votes because the Kaz criteria was different. But as said, one can't imagine anyone else having a better season. If breaking multiple records while putting in arguably the best season ever at the position doesn't deserve the Kaz award...I guess then it speaks to the Kaz criteria which could well be off of what it should be.
I would say Desbiens was a more deserving candidate for the Kaz.
Edit: I would say the article outlines the issue quite well. She didn't get the votes because the Kaz criteria was different. But as said, one can't imagine anyone else having a better season. If breaking multiple records while putting in arguably the best season ever at the position doesn't deserve the Kaz award...I guess then it speaks to the Kaz criteria which could well be off of what it should be.
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Timothy A
Let's go RED!
Re: Ard-uscho poy
I feel that ARD had done more than enough in the regular season setting all sorts of records to win. I feel bitter because this year may have been her best chance. It will be difficult to repeat those insane numbers next year and if she doesn't and the numbers are worse a bit, the voters will hold that against her. I also imagine UW's scoring will be up next year with a great class of freshman F's coming in, so that will also hurt her. I think MJ will play Cece and/or Baldwin in games to give one or both some experience for the next season, so she may start less games, which will also hurt her chances. Coyne's numbers weren't any better than Carpenter's, so it wasn't like Coyne was far and away the best F in the country. I do think most of the voters being Eastern has something to do with it, but that is just the way it has to be. I guess the bottom line is the award does help bring the women's game to the forefront a little more and that is big picture good.
I feel that ARD had done more than enough in the regular season setting all sorts of records to win. I feel bitter because this year may have been her best chance. It will be difficult to repeat those insane numbers next year and if she doesn't and the numbers are worse a bit, the voters will hold that against her. I also imagine UW's scoring will be up next year with a great class of freshman F's coming in, so that will also hurt her. I think MJ will play Cece and/or Baldwin in games to give one or both some experience for the next season, so she may start less games, which will also hurt her chances. Coyne's numbers weren't any better than Carpenter's, so it wasn't like Coyne was far and away the best F in the country. I do think most of the voters being Eastern has something to do with it, but that is just the way it has to be. I guess the bottom line is the award does help bring the women's game to the forefront a little more and that is big picture good.
Leather helmet
New member
Re: Ard-uscho poy
Timothy is right. The numbers put up by Coyne and Carpenter are right in line with what the top players put up every season. They had excellent years, but not historic in any sense. ARD, on the other hand, had a historic season, and should have been rewarded for it.
Timothy is right. The numbers put up by Coyne and Carpenter are right in line with what the top players put up every season. They had excellent years, but not historic in any sense. ARD, on the other hand, had a historic season, and should have been rewarded for it.
Ted Knight
New member
Re: Ard-uscho poy
totally agree. ARD's stats are equal to a player having 75 goals.
take it from someone that knows. goalies on good teams do overlooked. I know a goalie that is "struggling so much" she didn't even make Hockey East 2nd team all Star...without a regular season loss in 2 years in HE
got to grin and bear it. maybe next year.
totally agree. ARD's stats are equal to a player having 75 goals.
take it from someone that knows. goalies on good teams do overlooked. I know a goalie that is "struggling so much" she didn't even make Hockey East 2nd team all Star...without a regular season loss in 2 years in HE
got to grin and bear it. maybe next year.
pokechecker
Banned
Re: Ard-uscho poy
yup, they are overlooked
OK, reality check time
someone said that Desbiens had the equivalent of a 75 goal season
I'm not sure how they came up with that
you people are acting like she's Moses and parted the Red Sea
looking at last year, Amsley-Benzie lead all goalies
the difference between the two is 6 goals
can you imagine if A-B played behind the WI skaters she'd have given up 6 fewer goals?
or ARD would give up 6 more playing behind the Fighting Sioux?
I can
I thought ARD had a fantastic year, but so did Coyne
without her, NE doesn't make the NCAA's
put A-B, Burt, Leveille, Rossman, Whitlinger, or about a half dozen other goalies behind WI, and they still host a NCAA 1/4 final, and still win The WCHA
yup, they are overlooked
OK, reality check time
someone said that Desbiens had the equivalent of a 75 goal season
I'm not sure how they came up with that
you people are acting like she's Moses and parted the Red Sea
looking at last year, Amsley-Benzie lead all goalies
the difference between the two is 6 goals
can you imagine if A-B played behind the WI skaters she'd have given up 6 fewer goals?
or ARD would give up 6 more playing behind the Fighting Sioux?
I can
I thought ARD had a fantastic year, but so did Coyne
without her, NE doesn't make the NCAA's
put A-B, Burt, Leveille, Rossman, Whitlinger, or about a half dozen other goalies behind WI, and they still host a NCAA 1/4 final, and still win The WCHA
That, right there. I can't make a case against the winner but i feel ARD has a better case.
Eeyore is not wrong but by the same token Coyne and Carpenter didn't get all those points alone either. Who yyou play for has a huge impact on how you do. Thats another reason to discount individual awards for a team sport.
Re: Ard-uscho poy
A part of the problem is that it's very hard to compare goalies directly to forwards or defensemen in meaningful ways. There are two main reasons for this.
The first is that goalies and skaters produce very different statistics. By that, I don't just mean that one is offensive, and the other defensive. That's true of the difference between hitters and pitchers in baseball, too, but in that case, a pitcher's stats are just the inverse of a hitter's: a single is also a single allowed; a stolen base is also a stolen base allowed. That makes it fairly straightforward to translate the value of a pitcher to the value of a hitter. Hockey goalies, on the other hand, don't have an inverse of many of the most important stats that skaters do. Shots attempted, which is probably the single most important team offensive stat, by a team are something over which the opposing goalie has little control. So, even before you try to tease out what a goalie's contribution to a team's goals allowed is relative to those in front of her, you have a basic translation problem.
The second is that a top goalie will play well over 90% of a team's minutes over the course of a season, while a top defenseman will play about half, and a forward closer to a third. This adds an extra step in trying to convert per possession stats into totals. It also means that we generally can't use the obvious step to try to control for the first problem: comparing how one goalie on a team does relative to the other goalies. The sample sizes for those other goalies are almost always too small to be useful.
Some work is being done to answer these questions at the NHL level, but there are a lot of reasons to be skeptical that the findings there would be relevant at the NCAA D1 women's level. The main reason to favor having a separate award for goalies isn't because goalies are underappreciated; it's because we currently lack the tools to adequately compare a goalie's value to a skater's. Let's work on getting defensemen valued properly relative to forwards, and defensive players relative to offensive ones, first; the methodological problems there are a lot simpler.
A part of the problem is that it's very hard to compare goalies directly to forwards or defensemen in meaningful ways. There are two main reasons for this.
The first is that goalies and skaters produce very different statistics. By that, I don't just mean that one is offensive, and the other defensive. That's true of the difference between hitters and pitchers in baseball, too, but in that case, a pitcher's stats are just the inverse of a hitter's: a single is also a single allowed; a stolen base is also a stolen base allowed. That makes it fairly straightforward to translate the value of a pitcher to the value of a hitter. Hockey goalies, on the other hand, don't have an inverse of many of the most important stats that skaters do. Shots attempted, which is probably the single most important team offensive stat, by a team are something over which the opposing goalie has little control. So, even before you try to tease out what a goalie's contribution to a team's goals allowed is relative to those in front of her, you have a basic translation problem.
The second is that a top goalie will play well over 90% of a team's minutes over the course of a season, while a top defenseman will play about half, and a forward closer to a third. This adds an extra step in trying to convert per possession stats into totals. It also means that we generally can't use the obvious step to try to control for the first problem: comparing how one goalie on a team does relative to the other goalies. The sample sizes for those other goalies are almost always too small to be useful.
Some work is being done to answer these questions at the NHL level, but there are a lot of reasons to be skeptical that the findings there would be relevant at the NCAA D1 women's level. The main reason to favor having a separate award for goalies isn't because goalies are underappreciated; it's because we currently lack the tools to adequately compare a goalie's value to a skater's. Let's work on getting defensemen valued properly relative to forwards, and defensive players relative to offensive ones, first; the methodological problems there are a lot simpler.
While you are not wrong you are way over think it. There are no stats to compare the value added by a defenseman v goalie v forward. It's pointless to try. The same could be said for comparing how a goalie would do on some other team, it is unknowable.
What you could do is compare one goalies season against every other goalies seaon, past and present. Then compare that to a forward v every other forward. How much better was one goalie from all others? How much better was one forward forom all others? I admit it gets VERY subjective for D but there is always something. By that standard ARD is hands down the winner. But all the gets celebrated are points. It is exactly like that stupid football trophy.
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robertearle
Well-known member
Re: Ard-uscho poy
Amsley-Benzie gave up 6 more goals in 2014-2015 than Desbiens did in 2015-2016 while playing in ten FEWER games!
Desbeins - 29 goals against in 38 games
Amsley-Benzie - 35 goals against in 28 games
Amsley-Benzie gave up 6 more goals in 2014-2015 than Desbiens did in 2015-2016 while playing in ten FEWER games!
Desbeins - 29 goals against in 38 games
Amsley-Benzie - 35 goals against in 28 games
pokechecker
Banned
Re: Ard-uscho poy
Amsley-Benzie gave up 35 goals on 723 shots
Desbiens gave up 29 goals on 730 shots
it could be argued that Desbiens, playing behind a much more solid and disciplined team, saw easier shots
however you look at it, she didn't part the Red Sea
Amsley-Benzie gave up 35 goals on 723 shots
Desbiens gave up 29 goals on 730 shots
it could be argued that Desbiens, playing behind a much more solid and disciplined team, saw easier shots
however you look at it, she didn't part the Red Sea
robertearle
Well-known member
Re: Ard-uscho poy
The better way to say that, then, would be to citesave percents: ARD .960, SAB .952
The better way to say that, then, would be to citesave percents: ARD .960, SAB .952
pokechecker
Banned
Re: Ard-uscho poy
exactly
and over a season it amounts to 6 goals
and as I said, given the difference in the teams they play for, not much difference between the two seasons each had
exactly
and over a season it amounts to 6 goals
and as I said, given the difference in the teams they play for, not much difference between the two seasons each had