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2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

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Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

Kepler said:
You are wrong about this, but I do not believe you will ever realize it.
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No. Just saying that from experience. When he flipped on gay marriage and later admitted that he falsely represented his views on the subject to get elected, the chorus around here was quite strong that people were fine with him doing that. That's just the latest example.
 
Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

Alright! We've gone from blaming Obama for things that happened in the 60's when he was a toddler to things that happened 50 years before he was born!

You know Bob, I'm pretty sure Obama had something to do with the surrender of Detroit back during the War of 1812. Get to work finding some way to pin that on him, will ya? :D :eek:
 
Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

Rover said:
Alright! We've gone from blaming Obama for things that happened in the 60's when he was a toddler to things that happened 50 years before he was born!

You know Bob, I'm pretty sure Obama had something to do with the surrender of Detroit back during the War of 1812. Get to work finding some way to pin that on him, will ya? :D :eek:
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So you can't differentiate between blaming someone for an event happening and blaming someone for not acknowledging the full extent of an event when they explicitly promised they would? Apparently.
 
Bob Gray said:
So you can't differentiate between blaming someone for an event happening and blaming someone for not acknowledging the full extent of an event when they explicitly promised they would? Apparently.
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Always painful to admit, but Bob is right on this one.

The bigger question is why are Turkey's current leaders so afraid of correctly labeling an event that happened 40 years before THEY were born?
 
Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

Bob Gray said:
No. Just saying that from experience. When he flipped on gay marriage and later admitted that he falsely represented his views on the subject to get elected, the chorus around here was quite strong that people were fine with him doing that. That's just the latest example.
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Then say "some of his supporters" rather than "his supporters." You know the latter is chum in the water.
 
Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

Kepler said:
Then say "some of his supporters" rather than "his supporters." You know the latter is chum in the water.
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Yes, of course not every supporter of his would support his untruthfulness, though the response around here was mostly (and I say mostly because I can't remember of anyone saying they objected to him not being truthful about gay marriage, but it's possible someone did) fine with it.

Glad to hear you're not on board with Obama on the Armenian genocide situation. When I see a liberal who isn't always in lock step on everything, it bumped my hope meter up a little bit for our country. If someone pointed out another President who had done the same kind of thing, I'd say they are every bit as bad as Obama on the issue. I'm just not aware of any other President else having done this.
 
Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

Bob Gray said:
Yes, of course not every supporter of his would support his untruthfulness, though the response around here was mostly (and I say mostly because I can't remember of anyone saying they objected to him not being truthful about gay marriage, but it's possible someone did) fine with it.
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Why do you say he's untruthful? If you had asked me 10 years ago about gay marriage I would have said I didn't care. Today I very strongly believe that it should be lawful. Was I lying 10 years ago? Am I lying now?
 
Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

Bob Gray said:
Glad to hear you're not on board with Obama on the Armenian genocide situation.
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It's weird to me as well that he was so explicit in his promise. Was he trying to lock up that enormous Armenian-American voting bloc? Even then he broke the first rule of pandering, which is to always leave a bolt hole. Reagan (well, the guy who wound up his clockwork) was the master at this, as he'd make airy-fairy pronouncements without attaching them to any measurable action item. Dubya, for all his many failures as a president, human, vertebrate, and sentient being, was also great at spreading the peanut butter with no chunks of accountability.
 
Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

Priceless said:
Why do you say he's untruthful? If you had asked me 10 years ago about gay marriage I would have said I didn't care. Today I very strongly believe that it should be lawful. Was I lying 10 years ago? Am I lying now?
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He was lying. Everybody with Obama's intellect and education has understood for a long time that gays have been unfairly persecuted throughout history and deserve to be treated as the normal people they are, with two exceptions:

1) people over 60
2) religious zealots

He doesn't fall under either exception. He was lying all along. It's obvious.

Was he right to lie? In this case, yeah, probably. Just like an atheist running for office, it's not your fault that so much of the country hasn't grown up yet, and if you want to govern you have to win. Some lies -- like particular positions -- matter. Other lies are just the price you pay for being smart in a dumb world.
 
Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

Bob Gray said:
So you can't differentiate between blaming someone for an event happening and blaming someone for not acknowledging the full extent of an event when they explicitly promised they would? Apparently.
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More like we can point out absurd complaints when they come along. Maybe its that all Senators being relatively unimportant on the world stage can say certain things that the diplomatic confines of the Presidency don't allow? Also, no offense to the Armenians, but I don't believe the constitute a decisive voting block that needs to be pandered to. Most likely Obama still thinks its a genocide, but doesn't want to needlessly anger a NATO ally critical to the war against ISIS right now over an event 100 years old. Sorry to interject logic here.
 
Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

Rover said:
More like we can point out absurd complaints when they come along. Maybe its that all Senators being relatively unimportant on the world stage can say certain things that the diplomatic confines of the Presidency don't allow? Also, no offense to the Armenians, but I don't believe the constitute a decisive voting block that needs to be pandered to. Most likely Obama still thinks its a genocide, but doesn't want to needlessly anger a NATO ally critical to the war against ISIS right now over an event 100 years old. Sorry to interject logic here.
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Politicians, in campaigns that now almost never seem to end, pander to all sorts of groups. While Armenian-Americans are not one of the largest voting blocks out there, promising to recognize the Armenian genocide, probably the biggest event in at least recent Armenian history, when he became President would certainly be something you'd expect to draw some votes his way. To think not is just silly.

Apparently a bunch of other NATO nations (who are in Europe, much closer to Turkey) aren't as worried about Turkey as Obama is. Really, I'd argue Turkey needs the U.S. to help with the mess on its doorstep more than we need them. But that's not the main point here about Obama lying and your trying to avoid acknowledgement of such.

All people who become President say things on the campaign trail that they don't follow through with, but to be this explicit in promising something and then not following through for uncertain/arguable foreign policy benefits is more blatant than most things. It's not like there is any equivocation in what Obama said in 2008.
 
Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

Presidents break campaign promises all the time. You sell your base a platform, then get into office and find out there are a lot of obstacles, or world events force you to alter your plans, and/or various items on your wish list have to be re-prioritized. I would be willing to bet that if you could go back and give every POTUS an exit interview, the vast majority of them would comment on how quickly their 4 or 8 years in office went by, and how they regretted not having enough time, or being in the wrong political climate to pursue certain items on their agenda that they missed.

Is it hypocritical of Obama to renege on his campaign promise to recognize the Armenian Genocide? Yes. However, the President is in a position where he has to ask if it is in the country's best interest that he do so. That answer is not so certain.
 
Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

Bob Gray said:
Politicians, in campaigns that now almost never seem to end, pander to all sorts of groups. While Armenian-Americans are not one of the largest voting blocks out there, promising to recognize the Armenian genocide, probably the biggest event in at least recent Armenian history, when he became President would certainly be something you'd expect to draw some votes his way. To think not is just silly.

Apparently a bunch of other NATO nations (who are in Europe, much closer to Turkey) aren't as worried about Turkey as Obama is. Really, I'd argue Turkey needs the U.S. to help with the mess on its doorstep more than we need them. But that's not the main point here about Obama lying and your trying to avoid acknowledgement of such.

All people who become President say things on the campaign trail that they don't follow through with, but to be this explicit in promising something and then not following through for uncertain/arguable foreign policy benefits is more blatant than most things. It's not like there is any equivocation in what Obama said in 2008.
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Bob, this complaint of yours is Grade A stupid. Its petty and smacks of "if Obama said rain is wet I'd disagree with him in principle". If Obama didn't grasp the consequences of a President labeling a 100 year old event a certain way while he was a candidate, that might be something you wouldn't realize until you actually got the job. I really do miss the over the top complaints, like "Obama wants Spanish to be the Official Language of the US" or "Obama plans on surrendering the US to ISIS on this last day in office".

I think you might be losing your fastball. ;)
 
Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

Rover said:
Bob, this complaint of yours is Grade A stupid. Its petty and smacks of "if Obama said rain is wet I'd disagree with him in principle". If Obama didn't grasp the consequences of a President labeling a 100 year old event a certain way while he was a candidate, that might be something you wouldn't realize until you actually got the job. I really do miss the over the top complaints, like "Obama wants Spanish to be the Official Language of the US" or "Obama plans on surrendering the US to ISIS on this last day in office".

I think you might be losing your fastball. ;)
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You thought it was a fastball. It was actually a knuckler! :p That's why you swung and missed.
 
Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

Bob Gray said:
All people who become President say things on the campaign trail that they don't follow through with, but to be this explicit in promising something and then not following through for uncertain/arguable foreign policy benefits is more blatant than most things. It's not like there is any equivocation in what Obama said in 2008.
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Yeah, I have to agree with Bob, here. I have no doubt that Obama feels he can't alienate the Turkish government now. Erdoğan will have to answer to his people; Obama has to deal with Erdoğan; the Turkish people would be outraged if Obama called a spade a spade -- that's the calculus. It's as if you were sucking up to the President of Alabama and the anniversary of the Emancipation Proclamation came up. The Alabama government knows very well that slavery was bad, but they also know their population are a bunch of racist mouthbreeders, so if you want something from the PoA you'd better ixne on the averysle.

However, Obama made an explicit, simple, non-misunderstable campaign promise. He has to either follow through, or tell the Armenians "my bad, the current conditions of the world do not permit me to do this." That's embarrassing and makes him look weak to the type of person who expresses himself by punching walls, but he made his own bed, and we lost the cementhead types to the GOP long ago anyway and frankly good riddance.
 
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Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

Kepler said:
Yeah, I have to agree with Bob, here. I have no doubt that Obama feels he can't alienate the Turkish government now. Erdoğan will have to answer to his people; Obama has to deal with Erdoğan; the Turkish people would be outraged if Obama called a spade a spade -- that's the calculus. It's as if you were sucking up to the President of Alabama and the anniversary of the Emancipation Proclamation came up. The Alabama government knows very well that slavery was bad, but they also know their population are a bunch of racist mouthbreeders, so if you want something from the PoA you'd better ixne on the averysle.

However, Obama made an explicit, simple, non-misunderstable campaign promise. He has to either follow through, or tell the Armenians "my bad, the current conditions of the world do not permit me to do this." That's embarrassing and makes him look weak to the type of person who expresses himself by punching walls, but he made his own bed, and we lost the cementhead types to the GOP long ago anyway and frankly good riddance.
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If he did the latter, the world wouldn't expect anything different. After all, he started his reign by doing an apology tour.
 
Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

FlagDUDE08 said:
If he did the latter, the world wouldn't expect anything different. After all, he started his reign by doing an apology tour.
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At some point you'll probably have to make up your mind whether you're Alex Jones or Pat Buchanan. :rolleyes:
 
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