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2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

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Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

Slavery isn't, nor has been, an "integral" part of Christianity. Yes, it has existed through time and in societies that were significantly Christian. But, it's existence doesn't have any specific tie to Christianity, but was rather part of cultures at through time, whether Christian or not. And yes, the Bible has been used to justify it by some, as the Bible has been misused in many other ways to justify all sorts of things.
Yeah, yeah - we know, Mr. Scotsman. All the good things in society are because of Christianity, and all the bad things are just culture. :rolleyes:
 
Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

It just took almost two Millennia...And I thought Moses wandered through the desert with the Jews for a long time. I'm sure if I had time to look it up I could find John Calhoun or other champions of the "states rights" movement citing the Bible to justify the practice of slavery. But of course, the "War of Northern Aggression" was not fought over the issue of slavery, right?

The Bible didn't end slavery via abolitionism. Humans did, but they were driven by Christian ideals. Based on feedback to my post, it appears this is not up for debate.

Also, slavery was around well before Jesus walked the earth and existed in many places where the Bible never reached.

Additionally, every type of ideal in the history of the planet has been misused. Do you think patriotism has always been used justly? I think not. Does that mean 'pride in one's country' is to blame for bad wars? I think not.


So...
Although its been misused by many for their own ends, Christianity is not to blame for slavery and yet was crucial in its abolition. Its really not any more complicated than that.
 
Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

Although its been misused by many for their own ends, Christianity is not to blame for slavery and yet was crucial in its abolition. Its really not any more complicated than that.
What you've written here is 100% correct. It is equally correct to say, "Although its been misused by many for their own ends, Christianity is not to blame for slavery and yet was crucial in its extension. Its really not any more complicated than that."

You want to whitewash away the warts to further your agenda, pure and simple.
 
Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

Yeah, yeah - we know, Mr. Scotsman. All the good things in society are because of Christianity, and all the bad things are just culture. :rolleyes:
Uh, yah, that's nowhere near what I said. But don't let that stop you from being a jerk. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 
Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

The Bible didn't end slavery via abolitionism. Humans did, but they were driven by Christian ideals. Based on feedback to my post, it appears this is not up for debate.
Based on the very public posts on this board, and the opinion of many learned historians, I'd say it's very much up for debate.

Also, slavery was around well before Jesus walked the earth and existed in many places where the Bible never reached.
I don't think anyone argued that Christianity CAUSED slavery, just that it was used to justify the spread and continuation of slavery.

Additionally, every type of ideal in the history of the planet has been misused. Do you think patriotism has always been used justly? I think not. Does that mean 'pride in one's country' is to blame for bad wars? I think not.


So...
Although its been misused by many for their own ends, Christianity is not to blame for slavery and yet was crucial in its abolition. Its really not any more complicated than that.
It was also crucial in its spread to the Colonies (in particular the American South) and was vital to its continuation.

It's actually very complicated, since religion was used by both abolitionists and slave owners to justify their cause. Why is that so hard for you to accept?
 
Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

The Bible didn't end slavery via abolitionism. Humans did, but they were driven by Christian ideals.

If they were so "driven by Christian ideals", then explain sharecropping, poll taxes, segregated schools, and Jim Crow. Also explain how it took another 100+ years for a majority of northern whites to stop our own quasi-segregationist practices such as redlining?

The Civil War was primarily about maintaining the Union, and asserting the power of the federal government over states' rights. Or, if you're FlagDUDE, a fascist invasion by Furher Lincoln. ;)
 
Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

If they were so "driven by Christian ideals", then explain sharecropping, poll taxes, segregated schools, and Jim Crow. Also explain how it took another 100+ years for a majority of northern whites to stop our own quasi-segregationist practices such as redlining?

9/11.
 
Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

What you've written here is 100% correct. It is equally correct to say, "Although its been misused by many for their own ends, Christianity is not to blame for slavery and yet was crucial in its extension. Its really not any more complicated than that."

You want to whitewash away the warts to further your agenda, pure and simple.

Thank you. At least you addressed my statement.

But I would differ that what you've written is 100% true. As far as what I'm reading you're claiming the alternative...that if Christianity had not existed, that slavery would have been gone sooner. How in fact is that true if the abolitionist movement was driven by Christianity? What would have caused it to go away in its place?

Based on the very public posts on this board, and the opinion of many learned historians, I'd say it's very much up for debate.


I don't think anyone argued that Christianity CAUSED slavery, just that it was used to justify the spread and continuation of slavery.


It was also crucial in its spread to the Colonies (in particular the American South) and was vital to its continuation.

It's actually very complicated, since religion was used by both abolitionists and slave owners to justify their cause. Why is that so hard for you to accept?

Non Christians have been using Christianity for centuries to justify their actions. And atheists have used those actions as evidence that Christianity is 'bad'. Its already been shown that Christianity was the key driver behind its abolition.

What matters is whether Christianity made the difference in the existence of slavery. To both of you...would you claim that if Christianity didn't exist, that there would have been no slavery in the US? You will need to make that case very carefully.
 
Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

Non Christians have been using Christianity for centuries to justify their actions. And atheists have used those actions as evidence that Christianity is 'bad'. Its already been shown that Christianity was the key driver behind its abolition.

What matters is whether Christianity made the difference in the existence of slavery. To both of you...would you claim that if Christianity didn't exist, that there would have been no slavery in the US? You will need to make that case very carefully.

No, it didn't make the difference. A strong economy, manufacturing prowess, overwhelming numbers, great strategy and lots of rifles made the difference in ending slavery. As was posted before, if Christianity was so vital to the end of slavery, what part of scripture justified Jim Crow laws, poll taxes and segregation?

Both sides used Christianity to further their own cause. It neither caused nor ended the practice of slavery in the American South.
 
Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

Thank you. At least you addressed my statement.

But I would differ that what you've written is 100% true. As far as what I'm reading you're claiming the alternative...that if Christianity had not existed, that slavery would have been gone sooner. How in fact is that true if the abolitionist movement was driven by Christianity? What would have caused it to go away in its place?
Enlightenment and human decency. The same factors that are now driving the push to end a key remaining discriminatory practice in the US: denial of marriage rights to a huge portion of the population. A push, by the way, that is being completely opposed by the religion that purports to be about treating your neighbors the way you would like to be treated. So trends toward better treatment of minorities and those who have traditionally been seen as having fewer rights can, and do, happen without Christianity.

What matters is whether Christianity made the difference in the existence of slavery. To both of you...would you claim that if Christianity didn't exist, that there would have been no slavery in the US? You will need to make that case very carefully.
I don't think anyone can definitively say whether Christianity made "THE" difference, or that there would have been "NO" slavery - you're trying to set things up as black and white and then drawing the line between them at an absurdly high level. I don't need to make that case at all to argue that Christianity was used as a justification for slavery and resulted in it existing in some places much longer than it otherwise would have - that's as close to a fact as you'll ever find in any study of history.
 
Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

What would have caused it to go away in its place?
The economics of owning a slave was turning against the practice long before the war. In a few years it would have been to the point where slaveholders would have given up the practice on their own for the simple fact that it was expensive to own another person - food, clothing, lodging, discipline, etc.. Plantations were businesses, first and foremost. There have been economists who've looked into the subject and came to the conclusion. In fact, prior to the cotton gin, the institution was on the verge of collapse for that very reason. Then the average marginal revenue of each slave became much greater after the cotton gin, which extended the practice, but was still on the decline and its eventual end all because of the profit motive. Feel free to research it.
 
Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

The economics of owning a slave was turning against the practice long before the war. In a few years it would have been to the point where slaveholders would have given up the practice on their own for the simple fact that it was expensive to own another person - food, clothing, lodging, discipline, etc.. Plantations were businesses, first and foremost. There have been economists who've looked into the subject and came to the conclusion. In fact, prior to the cotton gin, the institution was on the verge of collapse for that very reason. Then the average marginal revenue of each slave became much greater after the cotton gin, which extended the practice, but was still on the decline and its eventual end all because of the profit motive. Feel free to research it.

I don't buy this theory for a simple reason: free labor gives you a competitive advantage. Its not like slaves were getting three meals a day and cadillac health care. :rolleyes: While it may in fact be true that they were becoming more expensive to keep, they also could have been used for more productive pursuits than cotton if the institution had been allowed to continue. Look what China has been able to accomplish on the backs of virtual slave labor. While I can't be bothered to find out who these economists are, it does remind me of the Dilbert comic strip where Dogbert went into the Rent-a-Weasel store and ordered 3 bitter economists and 100 lazy journalists. In the next caption Dilbert is reading an article about how babies thrive on pollution. :D
 
Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

Are you new to this site?

:D

One of my favorite parts about the political threads is that I could probably come in here at any given moment, with no idea what's going on in the discussion, post "You're all morons", and immediately someone's either going to agree or react like you did.
 
Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

I have a question about the slavery vs states' rights issue as to why the civil war was fought. Having looked through the articles of secession for a few of the states, they do in fact talk a lot about seceding because of the federal government's interference in their rights as states. Hence states' rights. However, every one that I looked at (about 6 of them) specifically and primarily mentioned the abuse of their right as a state to allow slavery. In Mississippi, the first sentence of their secession basically said that they were leaving the union. Here is the second sentence: Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery - the greatest material interest of the world. Several others have similar statements, although often couched in Constitutional terms. Georgia's for example, included the following: They [Non-slave-holding states] have endeavored to weaken our security, to disturb our domestic peace and tranquility, and persistently refused to comply with their express constitutional obligations to us in reference to that property [slaves]... This sentence goes on, but the gist is that Georgia's rights tyo own slaves, and to have their property rights respected as required by the Constitution were no being respected by the non-slaveholding states.

So my question is, if the first cause stated by the states themselves is a states' rights complaint, but apparently the only states' right that they are complaining about is the right to be a slave state, it seems to me that the first issue is slavery, and states' rights second at best. It looks to me like states' rights were a good legal argument, when frankly there was no other to be made.

Edit: Wow. That is a horribly written question. Sorry about that. Also, I looked into it a bit, and apparently only 4 of the states wrote specific declarations of the reason for their secessin, so I guess I must have looked at all of them Texas's is pretty entertaining.
 
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Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

Edit: Wow. That is a horribly written question. Sorry about that. Also, I looked into it a bit, and apparently only 4 of the states wrote specific declarations of the reason for their secessin, so I guess I must have looked at all of them Texas's is pretty entertaining.

I think we all know why the South seceded (the fallout from the Missouri Compromise, perceived "abolitionist liberal" Lincoln). So therefore, they exercised their states' rights, and tried to leave the Union. We can debate for weeks as to whether that was 'justified' or not, but ultimately, the Civil War was about those states' rights. They lost, and (IMO, to this day) paid the price for it.
 
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