2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

[St. Clown]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

Really?

So, he could have abolished two wars, the precipitous drop of the economy, NCLB, and Medicare Prescription D the minute he took office?

That's fantasyland.

All of those spending items were impacting the budget long before 2009. They weren't the cause of the jump. Take off your blinders. The falling economy, for which all of that stimulus spending done by both Bush and Obama has failed to achieve their stated goals (7% unemployment by when?), are really what caused those figures to skyrocket.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

All of those spending items were impacting the budget long before 2009. They weren't the cause of the jump. Take off your blinders. The falling economy, for which all of that stimulus spending done by both Bush and Obama has failed to achieve their stated goals (7% unemployment by when?), are really what caused those figures to skyrocket.

No, not really.

Fact is everyone knows including those on Capitol Hill that Governments spend more when the economy is bad and spend less when the economy is good. Under Bush we decided to spend spend spend while the economy was good. That was the underlying problem.

To be honest I don't know why Wall Street continues to skyrocket while main street remains unemployed. I'm pretty sure though that is has nothing to do with anything Obama or even Bush did.

 

[jerphisch]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

All of those spending items were impacting the budget long before 2009. They weren't the cause of the jump. Take off your blinders. The falling economy, for which all of that stimulus spending done by both Bush and Obama has failed to achieve their stated goals (7% unemployment by when?), are really what caused those figures to skyrocket.

There is definitely some truth to that, but there is also some "accounting" that went in to the deficits on the link you provided. If you simply look at the annual growth in the national debt here you'll see that the debt was growing at a much higher rate than shown in those deficit numbers. I believe most of that is because somehow during the bush years the wars didn't count.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

There is definitely some truth to that, but there is also some "accounting" that went in to the deficits on the link you provided. If you simply look at the annual growth in the national debt here you'll see that the debt was growing at a much higher rate than shown in those deficit numbers. I believe most of that is because somehow during the bush years the wars didn't count.

It's been well documented that Bush never included the wars in his accounting. One of the first changes Obama made was to put the wars back on the books.

Found it.

WASHINGTON — For his first annual budget next week, President Obama has banned four accounting gimmicks that President George W. Bush used to make deficit projections look smaller. The price of more honest bookkeeping: A budget that is $2.7 trillion deeper in the red over the next decade than it would otherwise appear, according to administration officials.

The new accounting involves spending on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, Medicare reimbursements to physicians and the cost of disaster responses.

But the biggest adjustment will deal with revenues from the alternative minimum tax, a parallel tax system enacted in 1969 to prevent the wealthy from using tax shelters to avoid paying any income tax.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/20/us/politics/20budget.html?_r=0

 

[burd]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

I am scoring this discussion at libtards 510 teatards 2. And I like teatards--I really do. Some of my best friends are related to teatards.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

Looking at the available charts on deficit numbers, it appears that the gross federal deficit as % of GDP increased dramatically under Reagan/Bush I. Then Clinton reversed the trend significantly (surplus!?). Under Bush II, the debt escalates again similar to the rate during Reagan/Bush I, then goes up like a bottle rocket before he leaves office. The rate Bush II left continues under Obama or abates slightly.

Am I at sea?

I think the messy part is that things were going downhill when Bush left and Obama came in. And one can read the numbers around that time differently depending on one's agenda. To me, I give Obama more of a pass on the first year, maybe even two, given the economic problems. Where I have a bigger issue is that the spending continued to be at a high level well beyond then. I recall Obama saying a number of times that the high deficit spending was only a short term measure and that the deficit would then shrink way back down soon thereafter, which turned out to be entirely baloney.

 

[Rover]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

I think the messy part is that things were going downhill when Bush left and Obama came in. And one can read the numbers around that time differently depending on one's agenda. To me, I give Obama more of a pass on the first year, maybe even two, given the economic problems. Where I have a bigger issue is that the spending continued to be at a high level well beyond then. I recall Obama saying a number of times that the high deficit spending was only a short term measure and that the deficit would then shrink way back down soon thereafter, which turned out to be entirely baloney.

I'm a bit less cynical on this. You have to be real, real careful about cutting spending too fast or you get a double dip recession which is doom. England followed these idiotic policies and needs a magnifying glass to find sustained growth while the US is starting to hit 3%. Its a real fine line between getting the deficit under control and cutting off your nose to spite your face. IMHO any more large scale cutting and you will strangle the recovery.

Now I will give credit where credit is due. The Dems never would have had the balls to cut defense spending on their own. So, give the Republicans in Congress their props. I as the biggest liberal out there am perfectly happen to exchange defense cuts for domestic program cuts at a roughly 55/45 % basis (not sure of the exact breakdown, but its more weighted towards defense as that's the largest program). Whether by luck or design, this has actually happened. Aside from social security, the hardest item to cut is national defense as even Medicare gets reduced now and again. I don't think defense spending has been reduced since Vietnam ended.

 

[jerphisch]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

I think the messy part is that things were going downhill when Bush left and Obama came in. And one can read the numbers around that time differently depending on one's agenda. To me, I give Obama more of a pass on the first year, maybe even two, given the economic problems. Where I have a bigger issue is that the spending continued to be at a high level well beyond then. I recall Obama saying a number of times that the high deficit spending was only a short term measure and that the deficit would then shrink way back down soon thereafter, which turned out to be entirely baloney.

Ok...so growth in the debt in 2008 was about 1T, all before any of the 2009 stimulii, which caused 2009 to grow to 1.9T, 2010 1.6T, 2011 1.2T, 2012 1.2T and 2013 is estimated at .7T. How is that not a short term measure that has shrunk way down?

 

[Rover]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

BTW, did Opie lose his internet privileges at the nursing home again or did he just drop dead? Haven't heard from him in awhile and he usually never passes up a chance to defend his hero George W Bush.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

Ok...so growth in the debt in 2008 was about 1T, all before any of the 2009 stimulii, which caused 2009 to grow to 1.9T, 2010 1.6T, 2011 1.2T, 2012 1.2T and 2013 is estimated at .7T. How is that not a short term measure that has shrunk way down?

Guess it's all in how you look at it. In government speak, Obama would say he's cut the deficit by $1.2 trillion. To me $700 billion is still a staggeringly large amount and the long term projections with boomers retiring and going onto medicare and all are bleak.

 

[jerphisch]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

Guess it's all in how you look at it. In government speak, Obama would say he's cut the deficit by $1.2 trillion. To me $700 billion is still a staggeringly large amount and the long term projections with boomers retiring and going onto medicare and all are bleak.

Oh good grief. I looked at in terms of a response to this:

I recall Obama saying a number of times that the high deficit spending was only a short term measure and that the deficit would then shrink way back down soon thereafter, which turned out to be entirely baloney.

If you quit saying rediculous things you will quit getting called on them. Concern over long term control of debt is perfectly reasonable, but when you cloak it in all sorts of completely made up $#!7 it completely takes the focus off a valid point.

 

[walrus]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

I don't think defense spending has been reduced since Vietnam ended.

it needs to be cut, you can't tell me they can't find a few % to cut

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

Oh good grief. I looked at in terms of a response to this:

If you quit saying rediculous things you will quit getting called on them. Concern over long term control of debt is perfectly reasonable, but when you cloak it in all sorts of completely made up $#!7 it completely takes the focus off a valid point.

You're starting to sound like Scooby. Therefore my efforts to respond to you in a substantive fashion will show a much bigger decline than Obama's national debt. I can only assume you don't understand national finances very well the way you keep failing to grasp basic points I make that are mostly just simple math. Heaven help me if I tried to discuss things in more detail the way you keep going off on me.

 

[Priceless]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

it needs to be cut, you can't tell me they can't find a few % to cut

What do you recommend?
And no "cut fraud and waste" isn't an answer.

 

[walrus]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

What do you recommend?
And no "cut fraud and waste" isn't an answer.

Fraud in the defense budget?

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

What do you recommend?
And no "cut fraud and waste" isn't an answer.

We should slash our overseas military deployments. We've got bases all over the world and in many cases we really don't need bases we we have them. And having military bases we pay for overseas is an expensive proposition. I've heard this from a number of folks I know in the military.

 

[Priceless]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

We should slash our overseas military deployments. We've got bases all over the world and in many cases we really don't need bases we we have them. And having military bases we pay for overseas is an expensive proposition. I've heard this from a number of folks I know in the military.

What??? Weaken our ability to project US military power on a global basis? Why do you hate America?

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

What??? Weaken our ability to project US military power on a global basis? Why do you hate America?

Guess I've jumped on the bandwagon!

 

[Priceless]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

Guess I've jumped on the bandwagon!

At least you admit it! The first step in solving these things is to accept that you have a problem!

 

[burd]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

We should slash our overseas military deployments. We've got bases all over the world and in many cases we really don't need bases we we have them. And having military bases we pay for overseas is an expensive proposition. I've heard this from a number of folks I know in the military.

What??? Weaken our ability to project US military power on a global basis? Why do you hate America?

Guess I've jumped on the bandwagon!

At least you admit it! The first step in solving these things is to accept that you have a problem!

Hugs?