2nd Term, Part VI: Burnin' down the House

[Foxton]

Re: 2nd Term, Part VI: Burnin' down the House

Ignorant and proud of it, eh? But plenty of juice left to throw out a welter of stereotypes.

I know you are but what am I?

 

[Rover]

Re: 2nd Term, Part VI: Burnin' down the House

Wow, somebody threw a Caveman Convention but forgot to tell the rest of us! But, in the interests of educating the uneducated, lets take 'em one at a time...

1) Handy as leader of Rover Nation I will take a small share of credit for the Democrats success, but we prefer to remain behind the scenes. However, we will continue to push for the widespread adoption of Rovernomics to guide the economy.

2) I'm always interested in the "lets drill on public lands" bleating out of the right. Why? Wouldn't we get a better impact from fracking/drilling on private land, where the property owner, local municipality, and state will all get some tax benefit, as opposed to drilling in the Grand Canyon where only the feds will get some royalties? For people who subscribe to trickle down economics, that's a bit of an odd posture. When private drilling has all been exploited, then sure take a look at public lands. In the meantime, no thanks.

3) Lastly, there's the assertion out of our knuckledragger friends that the O has nothing, NOTHING I SAY, to do with increased US energy independence. This despite the fact that a good part of our reduction in oil demand is due to cars getting better gas mileage.....something mandated by....that's right, the Obama administration! Furthermore, if he wanted to shut down fracking on evironmental grounds I'm sure he could have by now. So, lets stop whining and give the man credit where credit is due people.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: 2nd Term, Part VI: Burnin' down the House

This despite the fact that a good part of our reduction in oil demand is due to cars getting better gas mileage.....something mandated by....that's right, the Obama administration!

I'm pretty sure his mileage mandates applied, at the earliest, for the 2014 model year, which we're just starting to see rolled out now. I like the mandates and the impetus to try to get higher gas mileage out of vehicles, since I don't think customer demand is quite doing the trick, but I don't know that I would go so far as to give Obama's mandates credit yet for any reduced oil demand. The mileage mandates in place are as a result of prior administrations.

 

[Priceless]

I'm pretty sure his mileage mandates applied, at the earliest, for the 2014 model year, which we're just starting to see rolled out now. I like the mandates and the impetus to try to get higher gas mileage out of vehicles, since I don't think customer demand is quite doing the trick, but I don't know that I would go so far as to give Obama's mandates credit yet for any reduced oil demand. The mileage mandates in place are as a result of prior administrations.

I wonder how much average gas mileage was improved thanks to the wildly popular cash for clunkers program....

 

[Rover]

Re: 2nd Term, Part VI: Burnin' down the House

I'm pretty sure his mileage mandates applied, at the earliest, for the 2014 model year, which we're just starting to see rolled out now. I like the mandates and the impetus to try to get higher gas mileage out of vehicles, since I don't think customer demand is quite doing the trick, but I don't know that I would go so far as to give Obama's mandates credit yet for any reduced oil demand. The mileage mandates in place are as a result of prior administrations.

Apologies for doing some mixing and matching. Energy independence isn't here yet. What will get us there according to industry projections are 1) increased gas mileage from autos which Obama mandated (and Bush as well truth be told), and 2) increased use of domestic natural resources, among those natural gas in particular. I personally am fine with being energy independent with Canada's help.

What some righties don't get however is how you have to delicately balance competing interests when it comes to fracking. If you don't get the environmentalists on board, they can easily run to court and probably find a sympathetic judge or two along the way. Maybe they win their case. This and future administrations will have to manage these relationships properly. As Obama's been good on the environment thus far, he has to credibility to keep a lot of these activists at bay. I'm curious if a more thick headed leader (think Chris Christie or W) would have the same luck managing this.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: 2nd Term, Part VI: Burnin' down the House

I'm pretty sure his mileage mandates applied, at the earliest, for the 2014 model year, which we're just starting to see rolled out now. I like the mandates and the impetus to try to get higher gas mileage out of vehicles, since I don't think customer demand is quite doing the trick, but I don't know that I would go so far as to give Obama's mandates credit yet for any reduced oil demand. The mileage mandates in place are as a result of prior administrations.

Companies aren't designing in a vacuum - they're not going to keep putting out 12 MPG hogs right up until the deadline and then magically be able to switch over to 40 MPG sippers in one year. I think it's fair to say that 2014 targets did affect design and marketing choices in earlier model years.

I wonder how much average gas mileage was improved thanks to the wildly popular cash for clunkers program....

Not so fast... Mileage targets apply only to new vehicles sold, not to the aggregate gas mileage of the cars actually on the road. Taking a smoking hulk off the road is good for the environment, but wouldn't necessarily affect the average MPG of new cars being sold.

 

[St. Clown]

Re: 2nd Term, Part VI: Burnin' down the House

Not so fast... Mileage targets apply only to new vehicles sold, not to the aggregate gas mileage of the cars actually on the road. Taking a smoking hulk off the road is good for the environment, but wouldn't necessarily affect the average MPG of new cars being sold.

Part of qualifying for the Cash for Clunkers rebate was that the new car had to have a minimum gain in fuel economy over the vehicle traded in.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: 2nd Term, Part VI: Burnin' down the House

Part of qualifying for the Cash for Clunkers rebate was that the new car had to have a minimum gain in fuel economy over the vehicle traded in.

Actually, the new car had to be rated greater than 22 MPG combined, but that's still less than the CAFE standards, so Cash for Clunkers was not a driving force for affecting new vehicle design. Additionally, it was a one-time program much shorter in duration than the design cycle for a new car, so the auto makers wouldn't have had time to react to it. I really doubt that it had much effect on the types of cars the automakers decided to design at the time or since.

 

[Rover]

Re: 2nd Term, Part VI: Burnin' down the House

Actually, the new car had to be rated greater than 22 MPG combined, but that's still less than the CAFE standards, so Cash for Clunkers was not a driving force for affecting new vehicle design. Additionally, it was a one-time program much shorter in duration than the design cycle for a new car, so the auto makers wouldn't have had time to react to it. I really doubt that it had much effect on the types of cars the automakers decided to design at the time or since.

I think the point was it got older, low gas mileage vehicles off the road for ones closer to the current norm. That would in of itself boost overall gas mileage efficiency for the entire population of cars in the US.

 

[joecct]

Re: 2nd Term, Part VI: Burnin' down the House

I think the point was it got older, low gas mileage vehicles off the road for ones closer to the current norm. That would in of itself boost overall gas mileage efficiency for the entire population of cars in the US.

My Brother in Law, who is in the used car business, lost a big supply of his potential inventory in Cash for Clunkers.

 

[Rover]

Re: 2nd Term, Part VI: Burnin' down the House

My Brother in Law, who is in the used car business, lost a big supply of his potential inventory in Cash for Clunkers.

Interesting. I wasn't sure how widespread the program ended up being.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: 2nd Term, Part VI: Burnin' down the House

I think the point was it got older, low gas mileage vehicles off the road for ones closer to the current norm. That would in of itself boost overall gas mileage efficiency for the entire population of cars in the US.

No, that was where the goalposts ended up - and I agree that the program did achieve that.

The original conjecture was that Cash for Clunkers caused (or at least incentivized) car manufacturers to design more efficient cars than they otherwise would have, and I don't think that's the case.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: 2nd Term, Part VI: Burnin' down the House

Companies aren't designing in a vacuum - they're not going to keep putting out 12 MPG hogs right up until the deadline and then magically be able to switch over to 40 MPG sippers in one year. I think it's fair to say that 2014 targets did affect design and marketing choices in earlier model years.

That's why when the government sets these targets, say in 2009-10, they do so for the 2014 model year. They recognize it takes some time to get there.

My point was that what Obama did in say 2010 regarding the setting of standards for the 2014, and then as I recall, the 2017 model years, has had negligible, if any effect on the current demand for oil. Will it help in the future? Certainly.

 

[aparch]

Interesting. I wasn't sure how widespread the program ended up being.

It was disasterous to the used car and salvage parts industries. Able bodies cars that could have been flipped or parted out instead had to be destroyed (crushed/melted).

Also, the older cars that were traded in had similar MPG's to the new cars sold. The older cars were lighter on safety features which weigh down todays cars.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2nd Term, Part VI: Burnin' down the House

Cash for Clunkers didn't really cause the efficiency design, but rather the price paid for gasoline. I believe the same thing was done in the mid-70's, with things such as front wheel drive systems. We already know that Australia is undergoing an oil boom, as well as North Dakota, not to mention hydraulic fracturing. Once that sets in for a few years, we will start to see lower fuel prices and a reversion to the vehicles we had prior to this spike. It happened from 1975 to 1984, and it will happen again.

 

[Rover]

Re: 2nd Term, Part VI: Burnin' down the House

Cash for Clunkers didn't really cause the efficiency design, but rather the price paid for gasoline. I believe the same thing was done in the mid-70's, with things such as front wheel drive systems. We already know that Australia is undergoing an oil boom, as well as North Dakota, not to mention hydraulic fracturing. Once that sets in for a few years, we will start to see lower fuel prices and a reversion to the vehicles we had prior to this spike. It happened from 1975 to 1984, and it will happen again.

I don't think you're ever going to see an easing of fuel efficiency standards. The notion that cars should be advancing in this area is pretty universal. Yes, there will be some old dinosaurs who want to go back to leaded gasoline, just like some people want to disable their airbags and drive around with no muffler (I think Al Bundy did something like this in one episode) but they will be laughed out of politics. Bringing back big gas guzzling cars to the level they had in the 1970's is akin to bringing back smoking to its level of influence 40 years ago. Except in small pockets, it ain't happening.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2nd Term, Part VI: Burnin' down the House

Cash for Clunkers was one of the worst programs to come along in a long time. What a waste!

 

[Priceless]

Re: 2nd Term, Part VI: Burnin' down the House

News coming out of the navy base at Millington, TN of a shooter, 4 dead and s/he's still shooting.

 

[Priceless]

Re: 2nd Term, Part VI: Burnin' down the House

"Cash for Clunkers was one of the worst programs to come along in a long time. What a waste!"

...said Brietbart.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2nd Term, Part VI: Burnin' down the House

...said Brietbart.

It's actually a pretty widely held view, but hey, if you want to fixate on Brietbart, have at it. But, I know a lot of folks like the government to just hand out money, so to them it would be considered a roaring success.