2nd Term Part IX - How Lame is my Duck

[Kepler]

Re: 2nd Term Part IX - How Lame is my Duck

Good news, everyone. You can now torture people with absolutely no accountability, as long as you are the US government.

 

[geezer]

Re: 2nd Term Part IX - How Lame is my Duck

Because you loathe him.

Nobody who voted for Mittens ever gets to play the gravitas card.

You're thinking of GW Bush. Romney is nothing but gravitas. Dude has probably never swung a golf club or tipped back a bottle in his life.

Torture apology is simple. If you believe we should torture suspects then you also believe we should torture their children in front of them, as any justification used for the former applies to the latter.

I think equating terrorist suspects with their children in who deserves torture is plain stupid and damages your overall point, but I'd like to take this opportunity to apologize for previously making jokes about "what's the big deal if some terrorists at Club Gitmo don't get a fresh napkin with every hot meal", etc. The actual report makes me feel a little sick. It was not unlike some old Gulags I've read about.

 

[Rover]

Re: 2nd Term Part IX - How Lame is my Duck

Good news, everyone. You can now torture people with absolutely no accountability, as long as you are the US government.

Look, there's no way to get a conviction on this. CIA people are going to say we were ordered to, higher ups will say no we didn't, who ordered what is too vague and this all happened a decade ago. Not to mention national security concerns and the reliability of the witnesses: Joe Terrorist ain't going to sway the jury most likely. The time to bust out charges with a decent chance of getting a conviction was during or shortly after when all this was going on.

Disclosure is what needed to happen and it did. It takes a big nation to own up to its mistakes, and we have with this report. Unfortunately I think that's the best we're going to do at this point.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: 2nd Term Part IX - How Lame is my Duck

Look, there's no way to get a conviction on this. CIA people are going to say we were ordered to, higher ups will say no we didn't, who ordered what is too vague and this all happened a decade ago. Not to mention national security concerns and the reliability of the witnesses: Joe Terrorist ain't going to sway the jury most likely. The time to bust out charges with a decent chance of getting a conviction was during or shortly after when all this was going on.

Disclosure is what needed to happen and it did. It takes a big nation to own up to its mistakes, and we have with this report. Unfortunately I think that's the best we're going to do at this point.

I saw an editorial column written I think by someone at the ACLU who argued that Obama should just pardon everyone involved from Bush on down, even though no one is being prosecuted (or will be prosecuted for reasons you point out) or is even seeking a pardon. A kind of conviction without a conviction, so to speak. Thought it was an interesting idea.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2nd Term Part IX - How Lame is my Duck

You're thinking of GW Bush. Romney is nothing but gravitas. Dude has probably never swung a golf club or tipped back a bottle in his life.

Abstinence isn't necessarily seriousness, profundity, or dignity. Some morons are prudes.

I think equating terrorist suspects with their children in who deserves torture is plain stupid and damages your overall point

No, it IS the overall point. The apologists' justification for torture is that it is worth hurting a few innocents to save thousands of lives. Leaving aside that you could become a "suspect" just for being the wrong color in the wrong place at the wrong time, or because you had a vengeful neighbor who coveted your north forty (the torture report said something like 25% of the Gitmo detainees were completely innocent, and that's the torturers themselves admitting that -- god only know whether the real figure was 50% or 90%), torture apology rests on believing that while causing pain to an innocent is a horrible thing to do, when the ticking bomb is in play it's worth it. If that is the case, that also justifies hauling the guy's wife or daughter in front of him and raping her. If the guy knew nothing then that is terrible, but the possibility that he knows the location of that suitcase from Allah justifies that sacrifice.

The point of the torture these guys advocate is it is coercive, not punitive, so the innocence of the target does not matter.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2nd Term Part IX - How Lame is my Duck

I saw an editorial column written I think by someone at the ACLU who argued that Obama should just pardon everyone involved from Bush on down, even though no one is being prosecuted (or will be prosecuted for reasons you point out) or is even seeking a pardon. A kind of conviction without a conviction, so to speak. Thought it was an interesting idea.

Sounds like Marbury vs Madison. "You're free to go but you were very, very guilty."

Given the impossibility of transporting Dubya, Cheney, Gonzalez, Yoo, and about 2500 intelligence personnel to The Hague, it's the best bet. Even better would be if one of the torturers with a bad conscience and an incurable disease came forward and asked to be prosecuted to establish the precedent.

Instead, "Never Again" is just "Whenever We Dmn Well Feel Like It." America the Beautiful.

 

[geezer]

Re: 2nd Term Part IX - How Lame is my Duck

Abstinence isn't necessarily seriousness, profundity, or dignity. Some morons are prudes.

I know, but surely Mitt is more serious and dignified than Clinton, Bush jr., Obama, or 40 current Senators. Even if deemed lacking in profundity.

No, it IS the overall point. The apologists' justification for torture is that it is worth hurting a few innocents to save thousands of lives. Leaving aside that you could become a "suspect" just for being the wrong color in the wrong place at the wrong time, or because you had a vengeful neighbor who coveted your north forty (the torture report said something like 25% of the Gitmo detainees were completely innocent, and that's the torturers themselves admitting that -- god only know whether the real figure was 50% or 90%), torture apology rests on believing that while causing pain to an innocent is a horrible thing to do, when the ticking bomb is in play it's worth it. If that is the case, that also justifies hauling the guy's wife or daughter in front of him and raping her. If the guy knew nothing then that is terrible, but the possibility that he knows the location of that suitcase from Allah justifies that sacrifice.

The point of the torture these guys advocate is it is coercive, not punitive, so the innocence of the target does not matter.

You're right, I was wrong.

 

[joecct]

Re: 2nd Term Part IX - How Lame is my Duck

Can torture be justified? A Brit thinks it can.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: 2nd Term Part IX - How Lame is my Duck

I saw an editorial column written I think by someone at the ACLU who argued that Obama should just pardon everyone involved from Bush on down, even though no one is being prosecuted (or will be prosecuted for reasons you point out) or is even seeking a pardon. A kind of conviction without a conviction, so to speak. Thought it was an interesting idea.

Now that Obama's scored the easy points, it's probably best they just let this "exposé" we've all quietly acknowledged for years, but didn't really want to read, go.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2nd Term Part IX - How Lame is my Duck

Now that Obama's scored the easy points, it's probably best they just let this "exposé" we've all quietly acknowledged for years, but didn't really want to read, go.

That's ridiculous, or possibly insane.

This isn't something you "let go," it's vital. And for once it's not political, it's about our basic values as a country, and even if we still have them.

If you think this is just the usual Everybody Says X So Me And Fox Have To Say Not-X derp, you're wrong. Obama's just as deeply implicated as Bush and the Dems in Congress are as guilty as the Republicans in Congress. Therefore, none of them will do anything. But that doesn't mean we as the citizenry blind ourselves. At least keep digging and keep being appalled so that 20 years from now when this is the equivalent of interment camps at least somebody will have acted like Americans.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: 2nd Term Part IX - How Lame is my Duck

That's ridiculous, or possibly insane.

This isn't something you "let go," it's vital. And for once it's not political, it's about our basic values as a country, and even if we still have them.

If you think this is just the usual Everybody Says X So Me And Fox Have To Say Not-X derp, you're wrong. Obama's just as deeply implicated as Bush and the Dems in Congress are as guilty as the Republicans in Congress. Therefore, none of them will do anything. But that doesn't mean we as the citizenry blind ourselves. At least keep digging and keep being appalled so that 20 years from now when this is the equivalent of interment camps at least somebody will have acted like Americans.

I somewhat agree with you, and I'm not saying that ignoring it is good for the country. I was looking at it cynically, from the standpoint of political gamesmanship. You are correct in that no one residing in the Beltway will be doing anything to press the issue.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: 2nd Term Part IX - How Lame is my Duck

That's ridiculous, or possibly insane.

This isn't something you "let go," it's vital. And for once it's not political, it's about our basic values as a country, and even if we still have them.

If you think this is just the usual Everybody Says X So Me And Fox Have To Say Not-X derp, you're wrong. Obama's just as deeply implicated as Bush and the Dems in Congress are as guilty as the Republicans in Congress. Therefore, none of them will do anything. But that doesn't mean we as the citizenry blind ourselves. At least keep digging and keep being appalled so that 20 years from now when this is the equivalent of interment camps at least somebody will have acted like Americans.

Let's not kid ourselves. Everything Congress does has at least some political angle to it.

Even without this report, everyone knows representatives of the U.S. committed these exact acts. Waterboarding, nudity, beatings, music, sleep deprivation. Heck, movies and television shows have been produced in this country for years depicting these exact acts. Were those producers just good guessers about what was going on?

No. We were doing it. Obama acknowledged we were doing it and directed that it be stopped.

There is a certain salaciousness to this report. It's like if it was discovered that U.S. secret service agents were using sex slaves abroad. The President orders it to stop. We all spend years wringing our hands over our government gone wrong and how it reflects on our morals, or lack thereof.

Hey, I have an idea. Let's write 600 pages describing the exact acts. In detail.

Ok. Maybe it has more of an impact. Maybe it causes us to continue to reflect on what occurred. But it feels a lot more like just a bunch of torture porn to me.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2nd Term Part IX - How Lame is my Duck

Let's not kid ourselves. Everything Congress does has at least some political angle to it.

I'm not arguing that THEY don't all have their political angles. I'm arguing that WE, as actual human beings rather than political apparatchiks, don't have to fall in line and accept our affiliation-directed roles, and also that this is one of those few blessed times when the guilt is so evenly spread and so universal that lefties and righties ought to join hands and burn these muthafvckas so bad it will be another 200 years before our country does anything this sick and shameful again.

 

[joecct]

I'm not arguing that THEY don't all have their political angles. I'm arguing that WE, as actual human beings rather than political apparatchiks, don't have to fall in line and accept our affiliation-directed roles, and also that this is one of those few blessed times when the guilt is so evenly spread and so universal that lefties and righties ought to join hands and burn these muthafvckas so bad it will be another 200 years before our country does anything this sick and shameful again.

We voters are shooting to wound by not going for the head shots.

 

[Rover]

Re: 2nd Term Part IX - How Lame is my Duck

Let's not kid ourselves. Everything Congress does has at least some political angle to it.

Even without this report, everyone knows representatives of the U.S. committed these exact acts. Waterboarding, nudity, beatings, music, sleep deprivation. Heck, movies and television shows have been produced in this country for years depicting these exact acts. Were those producers just good guessers about what was going on?

No. We were doing it. Obama acknowledged we were doing it and directed that it be stopped.

There is a certain salaciousness to this report. It's like if it was discovered that U.S. secret service agents were using sex slaves abroad. The President orders it to stop. We all spend years wringing our hands over our government gone wrong and how it reflects on our morals, or lack thereof.

Hey, I have an idea. Let's write 600 pages describing the exact acts. In detail.

Ok. Maybe it has more of an impact. Maybe it causes us to continue to reflect on what occurred. But it feels a lot more like just a bunch of torture porn to me.

It has a powerful effect if you want to make sure this doesn't happen again. Ineffective CIA tactics that embarrass the US ought to be exposed and halted, not covered up. Its like saying we should never have disclosed the internment of Japanese American citizens during WWII. That would be ridiculous. Full disclosure is the way to go here, and it amazes me that people who talk all day about an overly intrusive govt have no problem with keeping its worst abuses quiet.

I'll say again I'm not looking for criminal prosecutions here but the least we can do is get everything out in the open and close the book on that disasterous era.

 

[unofan]

Re: 2nd Term Part IX - How Lame is my Duck

Dick Chaney can go fark himself, too.

I'm curious what public relations person/agency has decided the response to the report should be, "We didn't torture anyone, honest. But if we did, you have to put it in the context of the times post 9/11."

How can they think even the dumbest of dumb farks won't see the double talk in that? And yet I've heard multiple people implicated by the report say virtually that exact line.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2nd Term Part IX - How Lame is my Duck

I'll say again I'm not looking for criminal prosecutions here but the least we can do is get everything out in the open and close the book on that disasterous era.

Several countries have come clean on torture over the last few decades. Brazil is going through it right now. It's sick that the country that once rightly styled itself the city on a hill now ranks with dictatorships and theocracies for the depravity that was official government policy, but even worse is the number of people who are still trying to say "nothing to see here; move along."

After blathering on for years about the pernicious evil of gubmint, the tin foil hatters finally have an actual evil to decry, but instead they mumble about omelets and eggs, squeeze their eyelids shut and repeat "Mommy doesn't drink, Mommy's perfect!" while rocking back and forth in total denial. What cowards.

Have trials. Have jail time. Nobody is above the law.

 

[Rover]

Re: 2nd Term Part IX - How Lame is my Duck

Don't get me wrong, I'm real amused when the McConnell's of the world are coming out in favor of govt secrecy, and Rand Paul is conspicuously silent on the whole matter. A real profile in courage there. Remember that the next time someone talks about his as a "new breed" of Republican.

You can't prosecute because you won't be able to convict. It was too long ago, who ordered what is vague, the reliability of the witnesses is a big issue, and some things will be blocked due to national security concerns. The best you can do right now is full disclosure. We've gotten some disclosure thus far which is a good thing, but I'm sorry Dick Cheney isn't going to The Hague for a War Crimes Tribunal.

Now sit back and enjoy it while the Black Helicopter Crowd looks at the (R) next to the name of the people in charge and starts singing the old Don Henley song "you don't really need to find out what's going on. You don't really want to know just how far its gone. Just leave well enough alone. Eat your dirty laundry!"

 

[Priceless]

Re: 2nd Term Part IX - How Lame is my Duck

The Japanese are looking on in shock as we forgive torture after we sentenced their torturers to death 70 years ago.

 

[joecct]

The Japanese are looking on in shock as we forgive torture after we sentenced their torturers to death 70 years ago.

But we kept their germ warfare people around.