2021 NCAA Championship: No. 1 Northeastern Huskies vs. No. 2 Wisconsin Badgers

[Rightnut]

This is #4, maybe? How many does it take?

What "additional information"?

Look - you seem like a good person and I am not looking to get into any fights with anyone. I may have been a bit snarky before (not the first time I admit). But I am not getting into providing the basis for my opinion. I will keep that to myself. Let's move on.

 

[TitleIXHockey]

No one with any sense or knowledge of women's hockey is going to "admit they got it right" by leaving Minnesota out. In fact, quite the opposite. UMD's showing proved the opposite of what you think it did. Minnesota easily swept UMD. UMn also beat Frozen Four team OSU two times as well, and outscored them in their 6 meetings. What did NE do that UMn didn't do? Go on, tell me? UMn beat all the unranked teams it played, and by significant margins, NE can't even make that claim, can they? NE lost to UW in overtime? Whoopdeedoo, UMn did the same thing in it's last regular season matchup with UW, along with getting a tie vs UW as well, and NE also got an OT win over UMD? Again, Whoopdeedoo, UMn swept UMD, and it never took them going into OT to do it, either. What did OSU do in the tourney that UMn didn't do in the regular season? They lost to UW by 2 in the Semis. UMn lost to UW by 2 in the Semis of the WCHA tourney. What did Colgate do that UMn didn't do? They lost to UMD, UMn never did. What about BC, they lost to OSU by 2. 5 of UMn's 6 games vs OSU were 2 blow out wins by UMn and 3 one goal losses. Took 6 tries for OSU to get a multi goal win vs UMn, but they still got outscored by the Gophers. UMD may have deserved to get in, but UMn deserved it more. More than Providence for sure, more than BC would be my assessment, and more than UMD by any intelligent way of factoring it.

I'll grant that the East has gained some ground, mostly via stocking up Clarkson's roster with Canadians, but the West has gained as well, no longer being the 2 + the rest league it once was before UW emerged, or even the 3 + the rest. It's now got 4 legit tourney worthy teams.

Just looking at the conferences records vs the WCHA in the NCAA tournament, tells us alot. NE's OT win over a UMD team Minnesota easily swept during the season was Hockey East's first ever win vs a WCHA team in NCAA tourney history, by my count.

HE vs WCHA in NCAA tourney = 1-20.
CHA vs WCHA in NCAA tourney = 1-9.
ECAC vs WCHA in NCAA tourney = 10-25.
In total, the WCHA vs the rest of the country in NCAA tourney action = 54-12.
WCHA's opponents have only outscored the WCHA in NCAA tourney action ONCE, back in 2003, by a whopping goal differential of 15 goals to 12.
9 times the WCHA outscored their non-WCHA tourney opponents by at least a 2 to 1 goal margin.
And of course there is the most obvious, the 18 Titles won by WCHA compared to 3 for the ECAC, and 0 for HE & CHA.

All despite the NCAA's either purposeful, or accidental, or situational positioning the WCHA, as a whole, at a competitive disadvantage in comparison to both the ECAC and the HE, in one way or another. Not claiming it has to be a conspiracy involving nefarious forces, it could be purely coincidental and/or just how the chips fell, or it could have been well intentioned, "for the good of women's hockey"? Or, the evidence clearly suggests, it also could have possibly been a nefarious conspiracy. If there were more money involved I'd believe the latter, but my guess is it's more a combination of just how the chips fell combined with some so-called well intentioned actions/decisions made for the good of women's hockey as a whole. Either way, what the WCHA has accomplished, against the odds, should never be disrespected the way it is by some. No need for parades or song and dance or unadultered praise from the masses when a mere acknowledgement would suffice.

And just a little advice, before anyone goes and makes a fool of themselves, I've already done the research proving the disadvantages that went against the WCHA and went in favor of the ECAC and HE and will post that evidence later today.

LOL

What are you talking about?

No need to acknowledge the WCHA IMO. The record speaks for itself. They've won 18 titles, and for the most part the same 3 teams have been at the top the whole time. IMO every other conference is more interesting and plays more interesting games. That's why I only talk about the WCHA in my coverage as necessary and why I rarely watch them.

WCHA fans seem to think equity is talking about WCHA teams 90% of the time. It's not good enough to have 18 of 21 titles, it has to be against a VAST NCAA CONSPIRACY TO KEEP THE WCHA DOWN. Give it a rest. A so-called "eastern bias" is overblown, if it even exists.

 

[TitleIXHockey]

Look - you seem like a good person and I am not looking to get into any fights with anyone. I may have been a bit snarky before (not the first time I admit). But I am not getting into providing the basis for my opinion. I will keep that to myself. Let's move on.

I don't see the point in trafficking in rumors about former BC players or casting character judgments on teenagers and young 20-somethings.

 

[robertearle]

Look - you seem like a good person and I am not looking to get into any fights with anyone. I may have been a bit snarky before (not the first time I admit). But I am not getting into providing the basis for my opinion. I will keep that to myself. Let's move on.

What you are doing is in court called "vouching", and it is not absolutely allowed. You do not get to "imply" you know something that you are not willing to disclose. As I have already pointed out, you did not start with "an opinion"; you flat out said "not intentional". You flat out accused Watts of lying.

And I am NOT having it.

 

[TitleIXHockey]

What you are doing is in court called "vouching", and it is not absolutely allowed. You do not get to "imply" you know something that you are not willing to disclose. As I have already pointed out, you did not start with "an opinion"; you flat out said "not intentional". You flat out accused Watts of lying.

And I am NOT having it.

See previous post about rumor trafficking. That said, they're under no obligation to tell you anything just because you want it real bad. Sorry.

 

[robertearle]

See previous post about rumor trafficking. That said, they're under no obligation to tell you anything just because you want it real bad. Sorry.

And I am under no obligation to give that rumor trafficking a pass; I am allowed to call "BS" when I see fit.

He accused Watts of lying. And I am NOT having it.

 

[FredsDeadFriend]

LOL

What are you talking about?

No need to acknowledge the WCHA IMO. The record speaks for itself. They've won 18 titles, and for the most part the same 3 teams have been at the top the whole time. IMO every other conference is more interesting and plays more interesting games. That's why I only talk about the WCHA in my coverage as necessary and why I rarely watch them.

WCHA fans seem to think equity is talking about WCHA teams 90% of the time. It's not good enough to have 18 of 21 titles, it has to be against a VAST NCAA CONSPIRACY TO KEEP THE WCHA DOWN. Give it a rest. A so-called "eastern bias" is overblown, if it even exists.

Dude, I have no problem if you ignore the WCHA 100% of the time. If I have a point related to you, it's that when YOU DO talk about the WCHA, you consistently diss them for some reason? That reason is either stupidity(unlikely), a major bias against them(more likely), or your just being being sarcastic, a troll, in some failed attempt to be funny(most likely). The first option would just make me feel sorry for you, the 3rd option is fine, as long as you admit it once in a while, it's the 2nd option I worry about.

 

[Rightnut]

What you are doing is in court called "vouching", and it is not absolutely allowed. You do not get to "imply" you know something that you are not willing to disclose. As I have already pointed out, you did not start with "an opinion"; you flat out said "not intentional". You flat out accused Watts of lying.

And I am NOT having it.

Ok Sir Robert. I heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend who heard it from another. Does that make you happy?
Move along.

 

[robertearle]

Ok Sir Robert. I heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend who heard it from another. Does that make you happy?
Move along.

Not even close.

What "additional information"?

 

[zoofer]

From what I can tell, the NCAA’s have shown me that the regular season favors the WCHA teams....true or not, once the different conferences first get together on the ice, non-WCHA teams have serious issues with the speed/intensity of play...this gives them the edge towards the championships....non-WCHA teams do not seem to play their seasons against either as tough competition from top to bottom, or it’s coaching! In today’s recruiting, every team has access and ability to draft the same players so is it simply the talent level of 3 teams that is so far above? Given Northeastern’s roster, I’d say no....but as said previously, they were taken aback to begin the semifinals and championship.....
You guys know my 45 years of disliking the Badgers (name only, nothing to deep) since they beat us in Detroit at the old Joe Louis arena, when on a in-zone face off, Johnson hit the puck before it hit the ice, only to have it hit Magnerelli’s shoulder and roll into the net for the OT winner.... That said, UMD and Minnesota have taken down our women’s team enough, but come the NCAA’s, no one seems to be as prepared coming into the tournament as WCHA teams....

 

[FredsDeadFriend]

LOL

What are you talking about?

It's not good enough to have 18 of 21 titles, it has to be against a VAST NCAA CONSPIRACY TO KEEP THE WCHA DOWN. Give it a rest. A so-called "eastern bias" is overblown, if it even exists.

Well, the ECAC consistently getting more teams into the tourney until about 2016. 46 for the ECAC from 2000-2016, 37 for the WCHA in that time span. Now granted, this is not conclusive of anything maybe, and could be explained by the WCHA being so top heavy as you mentioned and the ECAC being a bigger conference with more interesting matchups throughout the season. BUT...



The more blatant bias leans heavily in favor of HE. Out of 11 seasons where only 2 HE teams got into the tourney, only ONCE were they put on the same side of the bracket, giving them 10 chances to get 2 teams into the Title Game without having to beat each other out on the way. Now out of the 9 times the WCHA only got 2 teams into the tourney, 6 of those years both WCHA teams were on the same side of the bracket meaning no chance both of them could get to the Title Game, and a 7th year, they were paired against each other in the 1st round.

The other 2 seasons, both WCHA teams got to the Title game. Granted those 2 seasons are a small sample size, but they seem to indicate that there was some effort to pair WCHA teams on the same side of the bracket to prevent both of them from making it to the Title Game. The opposite seemed to be done for HE, because, well, obviously HE needed as much help as it could get.

And I acknowledged it was most likely NOT some kind of nefarious effort, but likely just a combination of circumstance and well meaning efforts to do what is, supposedly, best for women's hockey as a whole. Allowing WCHA teams to dominate and get 2 teams into the Title game or 3 teams into the Frozen Four, can't help women's hockey as a whole, I can understand this aspect and as much as I didn't like it when Minnesota lost to Clarkson back in 2014, looking back now I can acknowledge and am even glad that Clarkson won as it was a good thing for Women's hockey. Now if Clarkson can just figure out how to do that without having to depend so heavily on Canadian players, that would be even better. And I am hoping that a couple B1G schools start up women's hockey so that UMD and the other non-B1G schools in the WCHA can play in separate conferences, spreading out the talent pool some and making it easier for non-UW/UMn and now probably OSU schools to be able to attract better recruits seeing as they'd have a better chance of getting into the NCAA tourney. Sure, it will make it harder for my Gophers to win, but it will be more meaningful when they do.

 

[FredsDeadFriend]

From what I can tell, the NCAA’s have shown me that the regular season favors the WCHA teams....true or not, once the different conferences first get together on the ice, non-WCHA teams have serious issues with the speed/intensity of play...this gives them the edge towards the championships....non-WCHA teams do not seem to play their seasons against either as tough competition from top to bottom, or it’s coaching! In today’s recruiting, every team has access and ability to draft the same players so is it simply the talent level of 3 teams that is so far above? Given Northeastern’s roster, I’d say no....but as said previously, they were taken aback to begin the semifinals and championship.....
You guys know my 45 years of disliking the Badgers (name only, nothing to deep) since they beat us in Detroit at the old Joe Louis arena, when on a in-zone face off, Johnson hit the puck before it hit the ice, only to have it hit Magnerelli’s shoulder and roll into the net for the OT winner.... That said, UMD and Minnesota have taken down our women’s team enough, but come the NCAA’s, no one seems to be as prepared coming into the tournament as WCHA teams....

There is a large chunk of sports fans out there who would agree with you. The times that teams who dominate in the regular season because of playing mostly, or all, weak competition who then do really well in the post season, seem to me to be more often the exception. But then again, playing a really tough schedule can also hurt more than it helps sometimes, the 2021 Gopher Women's hockey team being one of those examples, as having to play 9 of their last 11 games vs Top 4 ranked & eventual Frozen Four bound teams shouldn't have kept them out, as most women's college hockey fans believe, as they did pretty good vs such tough competition, but apparently the NCAA Selection Committee believed it should keep them out.

 

[Offsides Guy]

Now if Clarkson can just figure out how to do that without having to depend so heavily on Canadian players, that would be even better.

Almost 30% of OSU’s roster is Canadian. Does that irritate you as well?

 

[pgb-ohio]

Now that you mention it I seem to recall you making one of those shots many years ago and you are right, it wasn't awesome! LOL! (Big Grin)

Good memories!

I was actually talking league play. But if I get credit for all those Friday night pick-up games at the Ice Rink -- over the course of 20 years -- I can add a couple more bank shots to my total.

Again, my point is that it's doesn't require all that much skill. If you can make a pass through a tight space; if you can hit the corner of the net; you can execute a bank shot. It all depends on what the defense gives you, and your willingness to give it a try.

 

[TitleIXHockey]

Well, the ECAC consistently getting more teams into the tourney until about 2016. 46 for the ECAC from 2000-2016, 37 for the WCHA in that time span. Now granted, this is not conclusive of anything maybe, and could be explained by the WCHA being so top heavy as you mentioned and the ECAC being a bigger conference with more interesting matchups throughout the season. BUT...



The more blatant bias leans heavily in favor of HE. Out of 11 seasons where only 2 HE teams got into the tourney, only ONCE were they put on the same side of the bracket, giving them 10 chances to get 2 teams into the Title Game without having to beat each other out on the way. Now out of the 9 times the WCHA only got 2 teams into the tourney, 6 of those years both WCHA teams were on the same side of the bracket meaning no chance both of them could get to the Title Game, and a 7th year, they were paired against each other in the 1st round.

The other 2 seasons, both WCHA teams got to the Title game. Granted those 2 seasons are a small sample size, but they seem to indicate that there was some effort to pair WCHA teams on the same side of the bracket to prevent both of them from making it to the Title Game. The opposite seemed to be done for HE, because, well, obviously HE needed as much help as it could get.

And I acknowledged it was most likely NOT some kind of nefarious effort, but likely just a combination of circumstance and well meaning efforts to do what is, supposedly, best for women's hockey as a whole. Allowing WCHA teams to dominate and get 2 teams into the Title game or 3 teams into the Frozen Four, can't help women's hockey as a whole, I can understand this aspect and as much as I didn't like it when Minnesota lost to Clarkson back in 2014, looking back now I can acknowledge and am even glad that Clarkson won as it was a good thing for Women's hockey. Now if Clarkson can just figure out how to do that without having to depend so heavily on Canadian players, that would be even better. And I am hoping that a couple B1G schools start up women's hockey so that UMD and the other non-B1G schools in the WCHA can play in separate conferences, spreading out the talent pool some and making it easier for non-UW/UMn and now probably OSU schools to be able to attract better recruits seeing as they'd have a better chance of getting into the NCAA tourney. Sure, it will make it harder for my Gophers to win, but it will be more meaningful when they do.

I don't diss the WCHA. My top skater for Patty Kaz was a WCHA player, Watts. A couple years ago I was calling for Lara Stalder to win the Patty Kaz (albeit not here). Sorry not drinking the Kool Aide looks that way to you. The only anti-WCHA bias I have is the anti-anyone not Clarkson bias and the fact that I watch them far less than any other conference. (Okay a little bit, but not as much as you think )

I think your alleged anti WCHA bias is more that the committee is only willing to reward a tough schedule to an extent. We saw that this year where there were almost as many WHEA teams as there were WCHA and ECAC teams combined, who played vastly harder schedules than Hockey East. Also travel which has a much larger effect on the WCHA since they can pretty much only play each other to minimize flights.

On the other side the WCHA has benefited from a couple things

• Playing an 8 seed far below the 8th best team in the country (2015, 2019, and 2021 for sure)
• Getting an easier seed due to travel considerations (2016 where #2 Wisconsin got #8 Mercyhurst instead of #7 Princeton - I think I calced the sub 4 seeds based on PWR? Don't remember so might be off here)
• Also the above went the other way in 2018 when #2 Wisconsin got #5 Minnesota.

Not sure how much of an effect on recruiting splitting up the conferences would have. WCHA schools have a natural geographic advantage here with Minnesota, Michigan, and Illinois all in the top 5 in terms of collegiate players produced with NY and MA the other two split among far more schools. Being closer to eastern Canada doesn't make up the difference. I think the gap will continue to close, but the WCHA will probably always be slightly better.

 

[TitleIXHockey]

Daryl watts game winning goal was an inside job

 

[vicb]

Now if Clarkson can just figure out how to do that without having to depend so heavily on Canadian players, that would be even better.

And maybe if Minnesota and Wisconsin (and their 8 Canadians) can win it all without relying on 5 star Foreign (Non-Canadian) and Canadian players that would ALSO be even better. (wink wink)
WATT IS THAT I SAY??? SHIRLEY I JEST!!! AM I THE POTOMAK CALLING THE KETTLE YOU KNOW WHAT?? I OBVIOUSLY KNOWLES NOT WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT.

 

[Offsides Guy]

And maybe if Minnesota and Wisconsin (and their 8 Canadians) can win it all without relying on 5 star Foreign (Non-Canadian) and Canadian players that would ALSO be even better. (wink wink)
WATT IS THAT I SAY??? SHIRLEY I JEST!!! AM I THE POTOMAK CALLING THE KETTLE YOU KNOW WHAT?? I OBVIOUSLY KNOWLES NOT WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT.

I see what you did there...clever!

 

[vicb]

I see what you did there...clever!

Thank you.

 

[FredsDeadFriend]

Almost 30% of OSU’s roster is Canadian. Does that irritate you as well?

Well, 30% is a hell of a lot better than the 70-90% range Clarkson hovers around pretty consistently. If OSU continues to improve while increasing that percentage, then I may start to give OSU fans a lot of crap about it. But if a couple Canadians are used temporarily just to give a team a temporary boost, or to simply add some international flavor, that's a different story as there is no reason to be xenophobic or anything, even my Gophers have had the occasional Canadian on the women's team. It's just that when a sport needs to grow like women's hockey does, going across the border to our #1 international hockey playing rival, well, YEAH, it does irk me. Minnesota went the other direction on the men's side, went over 80% Minnesota natives for a long period of time and got close to, if maybe even got to 100% Minnesota born players under the Wooger, and as a result helped grow the sport in Minnesota, helping to turn Minnesota into "The State of Hockey", and got rewarded with more quality competition closer by, a stronger conference that promoted the birth the B1G Conf and the spreading of the talent out more. Minnesota as a state gained as the largest portion of the US Hockey Hall of Fame, which is located in Minnesota, go figure, is made up of native Minnesotans and the largest portion of that bunch is made up of former Golden Gophers!! Also, the US Olympic team has rewarded the University of Minnesota with more of it's former players being chosen to represent the US than any other school in the country, and it's not even close, they've got double the number than the 3rd best team has, who only has a few less than the 2nd place team. It's like 58 for UMn, 32 for UND or Wisc and 29 for BU or BC?

So keep recruiting Canadians, I guess, which helps my Gophers get more of it's players onto the US Olympic team I guess? Sure won't have to compete with any Clarkson alums, lol.