2020 Democratic Challengers III: Weekend at Bernie's

[trixR4kids]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers III: Weekend at Bernie's

Hard to know unless he releases the information, which one of the two was willing to do.

 

[Rover]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers III: Weekend at Bernie's

Hard to know unless he releases the information, which one of the two was willing to do.

So Bernie has a robust stance on full disclosure, right up until you get to his tax returns?

 

[trixR4kids]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers III: Weekend at Bernie's

I know he's released them in the past but gotta love how the purity tests differ for leftist candidates vs empty suits who with no platform who get large donations from special interest groups.

Beto bump tightened race between Hurd and Jones

I couldn't read further either but that surely doesn't read like you want it to.

Well there's a similar article out there that says that but can't point to any direct action he took that went against his buddy. Meanwhile he could've done far more to help Ortiz who lost by 900 votes but didn't.

I'm not talking about you here but the hypocrisy of some who claim their sole goal is to fight Republicans tooth and nail because they're trying to destroy our country, meanwhile when Beto basically helps them by doing nothing and people turn a blind eye... it's kinda telling.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers III: Weekend at Bernie's

Must be...

BIG OIL!!!! OLIGARCHS!!!! THE FINANCIAL INDUSTRY!!!! FRACKERS!!!! OMG!!!

While I'm sure only hard working peasants are giving Bernie money.

Psst. You're doing that thing we said we weren't going to do.

 

[trixR4kids]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers III: Weekend at Bernie's

Psst. You're doing that thing we said we weren't going to do.

Are we not allowed to post candidates records and draw lines in the sand or what...? We can do the kumbaya stuff after the primary.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers III: Weekend at Bernie's

Are we not allowed to post candidates records and draw lines in the sand or what...? We can do the kumbaya stuff after the primary.

Everybody is "allowed" to do anything they want inside of site rules. Please don't be hyperbolic.

As far as being a decent interlocutor, well, use your own judgment. Blowtorching the whole village is certainly one approach. I think 2016 should have taught all of us that it just weakens the good guys.

 

[Rover]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers III: Weekend at Bernie's

Are we not allowed to post candidates records and draw lines in the sand or what...? We can do the kumbaya stuff after the primary.

I think you need a refresher course in the subject of What's Important. As nobody has lived a pristine political life, even Bernie "A rating from the NRA" Sanders, we can't use that as a litmus test. If Lizzy Warren is chummy with Good Time Charlie Baker in Mass, or Bernie is cool with Phil Scott in VT, even though they're both Republicans, I can live with that. As all realistic Dem candidates are in alignment on policy, our goal is to see who connects best with the American people to drive turnout coupled with who can best deflect attacks from the Trump/Putin machine. If that's Bernie, great. If it's Beto, great. If its Biden, great. If we're sick of names that start with B and its Harris, so B it.

However, one thing that will not sell is applying one standard to your candidate and another to the primary rivals. If Bernie's all about full disclosure that's great. Then he needs to release his tax returns as should everybody else in the race.

 

[trixR4kids]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers III: Weekend at Bernie's

I think 2016 should have taught all of us that it just weakens the good guys.

Their own record and stances on various issues is what causes them to be weakened. People objectively pointing that out isn't exactly the problem.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers III: Weekend at Bernie's

If Bernie's all about full disclosure that's great. Then he needs to release his tax returns as should everybody else in the race.

I agree with this completely. I have no idea why Sanders hasn't released his taxes going all the way back. It's weird and leaves him wide open to charges of hypocrisy.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers III: Weekend at Bernie's

Their own record and stances on various issues is what causes them to be weakened. People objectively pointing that out isn't exactly the problem.

Mockery isn't objectively pointing out a record, it's yelling "I AM EVER SO CLEVER PLEASE PET ME I AM DESPERATE FOR ATTENTION!!!"

 

[trixR4kids]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers III: Weekend at Bernie's

Bernie has a D- from the NRA.

If Lizzy Warren is chummy with Good Time Charlie Baker in Mass, or Bernie is cool with Phil Scott in VT, even though they're both Republicans, I can live with that.

I think we're both smart enough to know there's a bit more to it than being chummy with other rich people that makes certain candidates problematic.

As all realistic Dem candidates are in alignment on policy

They don't though that's the thing, we have some who already turned their back on M4A and we all know who they are. There's a pretty vast difference between being willing to fight for it and just basically maintaining the status quo with some other tweaks as your starting point.

 

[Handyman]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers III: Weekend at Bernie's

I think you need a refresher course in the subject of What's Important. As nobody has lived a pristine political life, even Bernie "A rating from the NRA" Sanders, we can't use that as a litmus test. If Lizzy Warren is chummy with Good Time Charlie Baker in Mass, or Bernie is cool with Phil Scott in VT, even though they're both Republicans, I can live with that. As all realistic Dem candidates are in alignment on policy, our goal is to see who connects best with the American people to drive turnout coupled with who can best deflect attacks from the Trump/Putin machine. If that's Bernie, great. If it's Beto, great. If its Biden, great. If we're sick of names that start with B and its Harris, so B it.

However, one thing that will not sell is applying one standard to your candidate and another to the primary rivals. If Bernie's all about full disclosure that's great. Then he needs to release his tax returns as should everybody else in the race.

All of this.

 

[trixR4kids]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers III: Weekend at Bernie's

Mockery isn't objectively pointing out a record, it's yelling "I AM EVER SO CLEVER PLEASE PET ME I AM DESPERATE FOR ATTENTION!!!"

Well I'm not necessarily talking about here on this forum because it's tiny and insignificant big picture wise. I'm talking on aggregate across the country which is what actually matters.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers III: Weekend at Bernie's

As all realistic Dem candidates are in alignment on policy

This is a circular argument in favor of the status quo. If x's policies are not in alignment then they aren't a "realistic" candidate. This is an examined bias (intentional or unconscious) which prevents new ideas from entering the bloodstream.

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers III: Weekend at Bernie's

Well I'm not necessarily talking about here on this forum because it's tiny and insignificant big picture wise. I'm talking on aggregate across the country which is what actually matters.

So am I. The 2016 error was nuking each other's sites from orbit. We need a Democratic party discourse that lets comparisons be made without enemies being made, because we are going to need everybody to fight the real enemy.

 

[Rover]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers III: Weekend at Bernie's

This is a circular argument in favor of the status quo. If x's policies are not in alignment then they aren't a "realistic" candidate. This is an examined bias (intentional or unconscious) which prevents new ideas from entering the bloodstream.

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."

Kep, when I say "realistic" I mean everybody who's announced that's not Howard Schultz, Mike Bloomberg (before he dropped out) or one of those obscure Congresscritters (Delaney maybe?) that's running.

 

[trixR4kids]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers III: Weekend at Bernie's

Howard Schultz advisers are clearly telling him otherwise and it's funny to watch him keep making an *** of himself.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers III: Weekend at Bernie's

Kep, when I say "realistic" I mean everybody who's announced that's not Howard Schultz, Mike Bloomberg (before he dropped out) or one of those obscure Congresscritters (Delaney maybe?) that's running.

In that case they're not nearly aligned on policy.

Bernie's Bernie.
Yang wants a UBI.
Buttigieg wants an LGBTQ Constitutional Amendment.

Once you venture outside the pundits' safe zone you run into actual liberals.

 

[Rover]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers III: Weekend at Bernie's

In that case they're not nearly aligned on policy.

Bernie's Bernie.
Yang wants a UBI.
Buttigieg wants an LGBTQ Constitutional Amendment.

Once you venture outside the pundits' safe zone you run into actual liberals.

Buttigieg is not a realistic alternative. He has no chance of securing the nomination. Who the F is Yang?

What you're arguing is semantics. Everybody wants to expand gubmint run healthcare. Whether than means everybody is on Medicare (Sanders, etc) or everybody who doesn't already have insurance through work is on Medicare, really who the F cares when the alternative is Nazis cutting Medicare to give tax breaks to billionaires?

Every Dem wants higher taxes on the rich. Whether that's Warren taxing wealth or higher income brackets for top earners the goal is the same and the specifics will be shaped by Congress.

Every Dem is in favor of robust voting rights reform. Same with net neutrality.

Don't make the perfect the enemy of the good. Its pundits themselves who are the enemy, trying to drive a wedge to distract from the dumpster fire that is the Chump administration in the name of bothsiderism.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers III: Weekend at Bernie's

Every Dem wants higher taxes on the rich.

Whether you set the top marginal rate at 37% (Warren) or 47% (Bernie) or 77% (AOC) or 97% (Kepler) is not semantics. It's basically the only significant difference in American fiscal policy.

These are real debates and they are going to require real substantive policy arguments. The question of whether to have a wealth tax -- an entirely new qualitative method of protecting freedom from its brutalization by wealth -- is a huge difference. The pundits are just a stand-in for the 1% -- really, the 0.1% -- who own this country. They aren't going to permit that idea to get a fair hearing.