2020 Democratic Challengers: Boogaloo

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Boogaloo

Can we please have some perspective here and realize that Susan Sarandon is one stupid person? The number of people who think as she can comfortably fit in Lynah Rink with room to spare, and they all either inhabit Hollywood or the editorial page of Jacobin.

Whenever I read people whining about Susan Sarandon I see Flag under his bed hiding from The Globalists.

You underestimate how many of those were in the electorate. Susan Sarandon is the poster child for all the butthurt Bernouts that voted for Trump.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Boogaloo

#1 - you've repeatedly said Dems have sold out for the last 40 years. Go back and search your own posts. Now its been since 2006? I'll ask again, do you think a more liberal pol than Dukakis would have won in 1988?????

#2 - No offense, but your point is absurd. If people weren't poor, there'd be no racial discrimination? Really?

You don't understand either of my points or you're being deliberately obtuse.

1. The Dems didn't sell out in 1988, they recognized political reality. They never really sold out at all, they just became a batter who was hit badly by a pitch and now can't crowd the plate because of fear. Since at least 2006 and probably earlier, the underlying political reality has changed but the Dems are so compromised by living in their pundit bubble with other white collar liberals that they either have no incentive to change (the cynical view) or they have no understanding that they can finally push again for their economic ideals (the kinder view). My argument is let's not argue over whether the Dems were craven or just lost the thread, and let's not argue about how many years we've missed the opportunity. Let's start acting now.

2. There will always be racism. But the reason blacks are institutionally biased against by law enforcement and the justice system in general is because in America we treat the poor as garbage. Because black poverty is so high, black skin has become a prejudicial signifier of poverty and thus a license to mistreat. Reduce poverty and especially reduce black poverty so that black skin is no longer associated in the public mind with poverty, and cops and juries and judges will no longer treat black people as poor-until-proven-otherwise. And along the way economic reforms will also reduce the de jure mistreatment of the poor as a whole.

My arguments are not the strawmen you create. Please try to engage with what I'm saying rather than just trying to score points. This isn't Kos -- this is about meaning, not influence. So please argue honestly.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Boogaloo

You underestimate how many of those were in the electorate. Susan Sarandon is the poster child for all the butthurt Bernouts that voted for Trump.

She's the poster child for a rhetorical creation to smear all economic liberals which is part of the larger effort to divide and conquer the left. Don't fall for it.

Assume I am the average Bernie supporter. Try thinking of them as me.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Boogaloo

She's the poster child for a rhetorical creation to smear all economic liberals which is part of the larger effort to divide and conquer the left. Don't fall for it.

Assume I am the average Bernie supporter. Try thinking of them as me.

Again. My voting block doesn't need convincing. We're going to vote for whoever the nominee is. You apparently need to convince yourself, or the others like you that take their ball and go home when they don't like playing the game anymore.

 

[Rover]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Boogaloo

Assume I am the average Bernie supporter. Try thinking of them as me.

We are, and that's why Bernie supporters are taking so much heat. You (representing Bernie voters) and you personally will never live down putting Trump in the White House in 2016 by actively voting FOR him instead of even just staying home. Little Ralphie Nader has rightfully been a pariah since 2000. I fear Sanders and his people are going the same way, and I'm hopeful someone else (Warren maybe) can pick up the mantle of some of the ideas without the God-complex that we're seeing out of you guys!

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Boogaloo

Again. My voting block doesn't need convincing. We're going to vote for whoever the nominee is. You apparently need to convince yourself, or the others like you that take their ball and go home when they don't like playing the game anymore.

Except this is bullsh-t. You literally do not know what you are talking about.

 

[Rover]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Boogaloo

Except this is bullsh-t. You literally do not know what you are talking about.

Scoobs is right and you're wrong. Can't state it any clearer than that.

 

[Handyman]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Boogaloo

1) Your evidence is 30 years old. As you say, electorates change. Since the great Theft of 2006, people have been ready to put the Plutes in their place. The Tea Party and Dump are how voters on the right responded to this -- it was dumb and misdirected and self-harming, but it was a response. Liz and Bernie are the response on the left so far. We need a solid and charismatic leader committed to those principles who also lives in the real world. Gavin Newsom is my current flavor of the month. Our views are not mutually exclusive, Rover.

2) Blacks are treated like sh-t because blacks are poor and the poor are treated like sh-t. Break the back of economic inequality and we'll break the back of racial inequality. It does nobody any good to have a system where rich black women can treat poor white men like garbage, and that's what the identity movement of the last 30 years in lefty academia has aimed for.

And again Newsome isnt going to run for President in 2020. He is going to win the California Governors race this fall and he isnt going to only do that for 2 years. (most of which he would spend then campaigning for President which would kill his chances) He will run in the future but it isnt now.

 

[Deutsche Gopher Fan]

And again Newsome isnt going to run for President in 2020. He is going to win the California Governors race this fall and he isnt going to only do that for 2 years. (most of which he would spend then campaigning for President which would kill his chances) He will run in the future but it isnt now.

Gosh I love Gavin.

 

[Handyman]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Boogaloo

2. There will always be racism. But the reason blacks are institutionally biased against by law enforcement and the justice system in general is because in America we treat the poor as garbage. Because black poverty is so high, black skin has become a prejudicial signifier of poverty and thus a license to mistreat. Reduce poverty and especially reduce black poverty so that black skin is no longer associated in the public mind with poverty, and cops and juries and judges will no longer treat black people as poor-until-proven-otherwise. And along the way economic reforms will also reduce the de jure mistreatment of the poor as a whole.

Sorry but that is BS. That presumes that blacks with any sort of means dont face similar challenges to those that are poor. That is simply not true. Listen to famous black athletes and actors talk about how law enforcement treats them. Look at how Blacks with means (outside OJ) are treated by the justice system. Their money only helps so much...

 

[Handyman]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Boogaloo

Gosh I love Gavin.

I do too but if he runs for President in 2020 he will die on the vine. You cant be Governor for basically 6 months and then run for President. He needs at least 1 full term.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Boogaloo

Except this is bullsh-t. You literally do not know what you are talking about.

No. It's not BS. That's what happened.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Boogaloo

We are, and that's why Bernie supporters are taking so much heat. You (representing Bernie voters) and you personally will never live down putting Trump in the White House in 2016 by actively voting FOR him instead of even just staying home. Little Ralphie Nader has rightfully been a pariah since 2000. I fear Sanders and his people are going the same way, and I'm hopeful someone else (Warren maybe) can pick up the mantle of some of the ideas without the God-complex that we're seeing out of you guys!

You just keep repeating the same nonsense and never learn a thing. You have an idee fixe and that's it with you, you're never moving beyond it.

I don't see any point to keep debating this with you. Let's leave it at this.

1. You're wrong and you'll never know it. It's been explained to you a dozen different ways and it's not that you disagree, you just don't hear or understand those refutations. You're the host in West World: "it doesn't look like anything to me."

2. Both the center and the left are required to defeat the This is Not a Drill Existential Evil that is today's American right. Eyes on the prize.

You ought to know that your center will always prevail against my left in America because of a host of cultural myths that go all the way back to the founding of our government by the rich. You can afford to be magnanimous. The left will never take real hold here the way it has from time to time in European countries because America functions well enough for enough people (absent anomalies like the current drive into fascism) that it only needs a really strong left movement in emergencies. For day-to-day life, the center will always hold.

 

[Deutsche Gopher Fan]

I do too but if he runs for President in 2020 he will die on the vine. You cant win be Governor for basically 6 months and then run for President. He needs at least 1 full term.

Oh I agree, I’m just gonna have to wait for him
Spitzer always sounds so great on Maher, too bad he couldn’t keep it in his pants

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Boogaloo

Sorry but that is BS. That presumes that blacks with any sort of means dont face similar challenges to those that are poor.

No, it doesn't. I must not have been coherent. It means that black poverty casts all blacks into Poorland all the time. Even rich ones.

Now in a healthy country we would treat the poor with compassion and dignity and it wouldn't be an issue anyway. But this is not a healthy country when it comes to attitudes about wealth.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Boogaloo

Oh I agree, I’m just gonna have to wait for him
Spitzer always sounds so great on Maher, too bad he couldn’t keep it in his pants

Exactly what Dr. Mrs. said watching that episode. What a f-cking moron. He's one of the few of us who can cut through the garbage quickly and be clear and actually make people see how the other side lies and cheats. And then he goes and does that.

He and Franken are missed opportunities. I wish we had hundreds in the ranks ready to jump in, but they seem oddly rare.

 

[Handyman]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Boogaloo

No. It's not BS. That's what happened.

Kepler has a weird blindspot about this. He thinks cause he and I (and millions of others obviously) made the switch that they all did. That isnt true. It isnt as many as Rover makes it out to be but I bet if you took all of them and put them in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin and Michigan Hillary is President right now. That is the problem...some voted for the Potzker or the Conspiracy Theorist cause voting third party is so edgy and some just stayed home. They dont deny it either...

Its like the race thing. Some Bernie supporters just cant accept that he lost anyways. (hence still calling it rigged despite him not winning a flipping Primary) So they just ignore the fact that Blacks didnt support him nor did any other minority. To them he was just another crusty old White Guy (from a White State) spouting off a bunch of platitudes he was never going to get enacted. They didnt have much love for Hillary either mind you but they would take her over him every day. That is why Bernie lost.

Bernie might have every great idea out there but he was the wrong guy running on that platform at the way wrong time.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Boogaloo

Kepler has a weird blindspot about this. He thinks cause he and I (and millions of others obviously) made the switch that they all did. That isnt true. It isnt as many as Rover makes it out to be but I bet if you took all of them and put them in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin and Michigan Hillary is President right now. That is the problem...some voted for the Potzker or the Conspiracy Theorist cause voting third party is so edgy and some just stayed home. They dont deny it either...

Its like the race thing. Some Bernie supporters just cant accept that he lost anyways. (hence still calling it rigged despite him not winning a flipping Primary) So they just ignore the fact that Blacks didnt support him nor did any other minority. To them he was just another crusty old White Guy (from a White State) spouting off a bunch of platitudes he was never going to get enacted. They didnt have much love for Hillary either mind you but they would take her over him every day. That is why Bernie lost.

Bernie might have every great idea out there but he was the wrong guy running on that platform at the way wrong time.

All you need to do is get on Twitter. The Bernouts are all on there and they're all still butthurt and ready to destroy the Democrat party over it. They're the ones that need convincing. Not me.

 

[Handyman]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Boogaloo

Exactly what Dr. Mrs. said watching that episode. What a f-cking moron. He's one of the few of us who can cut through the garbage quickly and be clear and actually make people see how the other side lies and cheats. And then he goes and does that.

He and Franken are missed opportunities. I wish we had hundreds in the ranks ready to jump in, but they seem oddly rare.

As one of the people who wanted him to resign I changed my mind. He got flat out railroaded and to this point not one of the stories has even been proven. He should have waited it out he would have been re-elected.

He was only a missed opportunity because the Dems have a hair trigger and too worried about the polls every minute. The GOP is willing to wait cause they realize in 6 months no one will care. Dems always cut off their nose to spite their face.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Boogaloo

Kepler has a weird blindspot about this. He thinks cause he and I (and millions of others obviously) made the switch that they all did. That isnt true. It isnt as many as Rover makes it out to be but I bet if you took all of them and put them in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin and Michigan Hillary is President right now. That is the problem...some voted for the Potzker or the Conspiracy Theorist cause voting third party is so edgy and some just stayed home. They dont deny it either...

Its like the race thing. Some Bernie supporters just cant accept that he lost anyways. (hence still calling it rigged despite him not winning a flipping Primary) So they just ignore the fact that Blacks didnt support him nor did any other minority. To them he was just another crusty old White Guy (from a White State) spouting off a bunch of platitudes he was never going to get enacted. They didnt have much love for Hillary either mind you but they would take her over him every day. That is why Bernie lost.

Bernie might have every great idea out there but he was the wrong guy running on that platform at the way wrong time.

There is a lot of truth to all of this. If I disagree with you it's a matter of quantity, not quality.

Thank you for actually addressing the points seriously. I can certainly admit that I don't know every economic liberal in the country. I would say that in my opinion Bernie attracted protest voters who didn't have any stance at all on say health care or the minimum wage, and who when he exited just moved to the next protest candidate. I believe those are the Bernie supporters who moved to Dump. I don't believe there were in any way a significant number of liberals who went to Dump because they were miffed at Hillary.

But there may have been far left voters who refused to vote for Hillary and either stayed home or voted for a purely symbolic candidate. Those people do bear some of the blame for Dump and I hope they've learned a valuable lesson: if you must, do that sh-t in a safe state; not in a battleground.

But the real lesson for all of us is to get involved and get our hands dirty. It sucks because it means talking to our neighbors. But I don't see any way around it. We have to get off the couch if we're going to take our country back from the vicious creeps who run it now.