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2020 B1G Tournament

Re: 2020 B1G Tournament

Most certainly that method - or ANY method - has flaws like you described. Because of how hockey is, and because of not knowing how to handle recent results. But I don't think those were the "flaws" that SteveO was addressing - which were more mathematical in nature. But yeah, if you want to say there are flaws with trying to predict the future of hockey - and so therefore you should ignore the CHN thing - then by all means, ignore it. Not sure the math of it is far off, however.

To attempt a better translation: MLE means maximum likelihood expectation- that's just the prediction. The reason he says it's meaningless is that it's just randomly generated. That seems to avoid bias, but also doesn't use all the available information. The 'every point is independent' means "every game is considered as if there are no other influences as to the winner of the game" so, the CHN model (like every model) ignores things like multi OT and the psychological influences of comebacks, as well as recent results (who is playing well right now, etc). Gaussian means the random distribution is a certain mathematical way, and that's covered by the above description.

Again, it means: CHN is ignoring recent results, injuries, who plays well against whom, and psychological effects of prior games.
 
I agree that playing well over the whole season deserves more credit than being hot for a few weekends. However, I like that the autobid goes to the tourney champ. It gives the conference an opportunity for more teams in the NCAA tourney, and it gives every team something to continue to play for. In theory the team winning the regular season championship should be sitting high enough in the pairwise that they're going without needing an autobid. That is the logic used by conferences giving the autobid to their tourney champ.

I dont mind the auto bid going to the tournament champion. I just weigh the regular season championship as more important to me.
 
Re: 2020 B1G Tournament

I dont mind the auto bid going to the tournament champion. I just weigh the regular season championship as more important to me.

I sure wouldn't mind seeing a set of new banners in out barn for Regular Season Champions and Tournament Champions from the same season. Maybe next year?
 
Re: 2020 B1G Tournament

I'll try to simplify SteveO's comments with my own....(ha ha making that work welll....)

CHN probably takes the KRACH ratings and does a few thousand random runs of the test of the season with KRACH ratings as odds for 'who wins each game'. But, that method has flaws: For one, based on last week, does OSU have UW's number? Are those games really a random draw? Probably not.

Further, to what extent can you actually make predictions in college hockey? Not a large extent. There are only a few games left, really, and hockey has a great deal of randomness to it anyway. Further, statisticians will tell you that with the number of games left to be played here, it's more likely that something strange happens than that nothing strange happens.

So, don't pay much attention to predictions or probabilities at this stage.




Now, to comment on the tourney itself.....I'm sure that the BIG as a conference has decided to play on campus because revenue there will be similar to renting a venue, and no need to pay to do so. I'm also sure that the single game on campus semi (rather than Best of 3) is for the sake of preserving availability. I don't think the conference itself is thinking about player safety or getting more teams into the NCAAs. It's probably more financial and logistical than anything.

So, if there were an 8th team, what would happen? Well, first, the conference sched would go to 28 games. I like 24 better myself. Second, I'm not sure the playoffs wold change at all except that the Reg Season champ wouldn't get a bye.

Just a few thoughts....

Good post. Bottom line is the selection committee is not using Bradley/Terry or KRACH model to assign tournament seedings. It's a totally different system with it's own inherent confounds. A straight KRACH does not include home ice advantage, current team trends, H2H trends, winning percentages and therefore the RPI. I find that problematic to maintaining the internal validity of the iterative maximum likelihood estimations.

The common complaint among those favoring the KRACH is under the current RPI/PWR system if a team plays a weak opponent and wins, their RPI can still go down because the reduced strength of schedule hurts more than the improved winning percentage helps since the SOS IVs are heavily weighted.

There's an easy outlier fix that retains the statistical integrity of the RPI system. if a team's victory would otherwise lower its RPI, that game is simply removed from the formula.

I prefer the current PWR system plus the patch because integrating the two SOS IVs into the RPI formula yields a more precise SOS. Probability matrices might be fun to look at, but their variance predictability at this desperate phase in the season is fairly pedestrian.
 
Re: 2020 B1G Tournament

Good post. Bottom line is the selection committee is not using Bradley/Terry or KRACH model to assign tournament seedings. It's a totally different system with it's own inherent confounds. A straight KRACH does not include home ice advantage, current team trends, H2H trends, winning percentages and therefore the RPI. I find that problematic to maintaining the internal validity of the iterative maximum likelihood estimations.

The common complaint among those favoring the KRACH is under the current RPI/PWR system if a team plays a weak opponent and wins, their RPI can still go down because the reduced strength of schedule hurts more than the improved winning percentage helps since the SOS IVs are heavily weighted.

There's an easy outlier fix that retains the statistical integrity of the RPI system. if a team's victory would otherwise lower its RPI, that game is simply removed from the formula.

I prefer the current PWR system plus the patch because integrating the two SOS IVs into the RPI formula yields a more precise SOS. Probability matrices might be fun to look at, but their variance predictability at this desperate phase in the season is fairly pedestrian.

I'm going to be very honest in my opinion here......
If your desire is to evaluate a team's entire season and its results, KRACH with the further open parameter of a home ice advantage is as good a tool as you will get. RPI will always be flawed because the relative weighting of the pieces is arbitrary and has to be chosen by human desires/choices. There is no 'natural' way for the weighting factors to come out. So, to be very honest, the committee SHOULD use KASA (KRACH adjusted for site advantage). But, they never will, because explaining to a general populace what it does is going to be impossible. I therefore am of the opinion that the current weighting factors in RPI have been chosen to approximate the KRACH results. And, they do pretty well with that.
More honesty: RPI doesn't really exist until the end of the year. Therefore, there are 2 mathematical problems with RPI. One is that there should NOT be a QWB, because the quality win bonus is already figured into the calculation. It's like being credited twice. The equivalent would be a "bad loss demerit".
The 2nd problem is the same thing which Steve advocates. NO GAMES SHOULD BE REMOVED FROM ANYONE'S SCHEDULE JUST BECAUSE YOU DEFEATED A POOR TEAM. The idea that you have to do that shows that it's not a good mathematical system. Besides, if the idea is to use RPI as an end-of-year tool, then it is supposed to evaluate the team's entire body of work for all the season. So, every game should count.

But, also being honest, I would say that neither KRACH nor PWR is in any way predictive. In other words, it's not good practice to say that "Minnesota should win based on KRACH". Hockey especially doesn't work like that. Hot goalies, injuries general weariness, and psychological factors and plain PUCK LUCK are too strong of factors. So, I might use CHN's PPM as a 'game' or 'tool', but I'm certainly not banking on it.

As for the weekend....Minnesota needs to sweep, or they will need to win the tournament to qualify for the NCAAs.
 
Re: 2020 B1G Tournament

Good post. Bottom line is the selection committee is not using Bradley/Terry or KRACH model to assign tournament seedings. It's a totally different system with it's own inherent confounds. A straight KRACH does not include home ice advantage, current team trends, H2H trends, winning percentages and therefore the RPI. I find that problematic to maintaining the internal validity of the iterative maximum likelihood estimations.

The common complaint among those favoring the KRACH is under the current RPI/PWR system if a team plays a weak opponent and wins, their RPI can still go down because the reduced strength of schedule hurts more than the improved winning percentage helps since the SOS IVs are heavily weighted.

There's an easy outlier fix that retains the statistical integrity of the RPI system. if a team's victory would otherwise lower its RPI, that game is simply removed from the formula.

I prefer the current PWR system plus the patch because integrating the two SOS IVs into the RPI formula yields a more precise SOS. Probability matrices might be fun to look at, but their variance predictability at this desperate phase in the season is fairly pedestrian.

The idea that you say all of this higher math "stuff" - and then say Pairwise is better than KRACH, kinda ruins credibility. There is a KRACH variant with home-ice taken into account, called KASA, as someone else pointed out. That could be used. The Pairwise's RPI adjustment for home/away is somewhat arbitrary figures pulled out of thin air.

Probability matrices might be fun to look at, but their variance predictability at this desperate phase in the season is fairly pedestrian.

As opposed to what? You want something to take into account all of the subjective factors you pointed out? There is room to introduce uncertainty into the calculations - but it doesn't even sound like that is what you're complaining about.

Also - the Pairwise, and using KRACH to run the simulation, are two different things - and they are not mutually exclusive. The KRACH is used to "predict" a winner of each game in the simulation - but then the Pairwise is used, per usual, to display who would make the NCAAs. How else would you prefer to predict a winner? You can use the Pairwise to do that. What numbers would you use? If you say "use RPI" - then, again, if you want to use RPI over KRACH, credibility is out the window.

So of course predicting future hockey game results is open to all sorts of flaws. But please, suggest some better way - specifically - not the intentionally obscure mumbo-jumbo you are saying.

And thanks to Numbers for doing a better job.
 
Re: 2020 B1G Tournament

Now, to comment on the tourney itself.....I'm sure that the BIG as a conference has decided to play on campus because revenue there will be similar to renting a venue, and no need to pay to do so. I'm also sure that the single game on campus semi (rather than Best of 3) is for the sake of preserving availability. I don't think the conference itself is thinking about player safety or getting more teams into the NCAAs. It's probably more financial and logistical than anything.

Just a few thoughts....

It can't be that expensive, or the old CCHA would have never done a tournament, or the current WCHA could not have, too. Had the B1G gotten CCHA tournament fans, they would have had a great event. Had they gotten WCHA levels, it would have been amazing. But the B1G never bothered to promote the tournament, ever. Which made it being a cost loser a very obvious result.

It also helps to have a real championship destination to want to go to- even if its split between two locations. Having it randomly go to whoever is the highest seed remaining is dumb. We went to the two B1G championship weekends in Detroit. I would never even consider going to another team's rink.
 
Re: 2020 B1G Tournament

With the men's bouncyball game yesterday the hockey teams would have had to practice in the old barn.
Wonder how Wisconsin enjoyed THAT experience? :D
 
Re: 2020 B1G Tournament

Alfa is right. The CCHA Tournament was an "event" that drew fans from all CCHA teams. The Big Ten made no effort to either make it an "event." or promote it in any way. That lack of promotion continues this weekend with no television coverage of hockey. BTN has plus channels on most systems, so put the WBB tourney on BTN with hockey on the plus channels. It's ridiculous.

And the single game semi being all by itself on a weekend is ridiculous. Preserving availability? Garbage. If you want to rent your building out on a weekend you could host a game, too bad.

Michigan/Michigan St. at Yost best 2 out of 3 is a good way to start the tournament though. Looking forward to a hopefully loud and raucous environment tonight. Go Blue!
 
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Re: 2020 B1G Tournament

Alfa is right. The CCHA Tournament was an "event" that drew fans from all CCHA teams. The Big Ten made no effort to either make it an "event." or promote it in any way. That lack of promotion continues this weekend with no television coverage of hockey. BTN has plus channels on most systems, so put the WBB tourney on BTN with hockey on the plus channels. It's ridiculous.

And the single game semi being all by itself on a weekend is ridiculous. Preserving availability? Garbage. If you want to rent your building out on a weekend you could host a game, too bad.
No doubt! OSU does the money grab and rent their building out instead of holding it for just in case.
And the CCHA always took care of the fans because without us there's nothing to support and appreciate a program.
I wonder is the new CCHA will approach Fred Pletsch about being commissioner again?
 
Alfa is right. The CCHA Tournament was an "event" that drew fans from all CCHA teams. The Big Ten made no effort to either make it an "event." or promote it in any way. That lack of promotion continues this weekend with no television coverage of hockey. BTN has plus channels on most systems, so put the WBB tourney on BTN with hockey on the plus channels. It's ridiculous.

And the single game semi being all by itself on a weekend is ridiculous. Preserving availability? Garbage. If you want to rent your building out on a weekend you could host a game, too bad.

Michigan/Michigan St. at Yost best 2 out of 3 is a good way to start the tournament though. Looking forward to a hopefully loud and raucous environment tonight. Go Blue!

I went to the ccha every year no matter if ohio state was there or not. It was well done and i agree that the big Ten didnt do much to promote its tournament. I also went to all 4 tournaments that were held in Detroit and Minnesota. There is a big difference in how those two leagues went about business. Your point about the one game semifinal final goes along with my beef.
 
Re: 2020 B1G Tournament

All 3 series could go the distance and i expect at least 2 of them will.

Ohio state in 3
Michigan in 2
Notre Dame in 3
 
Re: 2020 B1G Tournament

I'm going to be very honest in my opinion here......
If your desire is to evaluate a team's entire season and its results, KRACH with the further open parameter of a home ice advantage is as good a tool as you will get. RPI will always be flawed because the relative weighting of the pieces is arbitrary and has to be chosen by human desires/choices. There is no 'natural' way for the weighting factors to come out. So, to be very honest, the committee SHOULD use KASA (KRACH adjusted for site advantage). But, they never will, because explaining to a general populace what it does is going to be impossible. I therefore am of the opinion that the current weighting factors in RPI have been chosen to approximate the KRACH results. And, they do pretty well with that.
More honesty: RPI doesn't really exist until the end of the year. Therefore, there are 2 mathematical problems with RPI. One is that there should NOT be a QWB, because the quality win bonus is already figured into the calculation. It's like being credited twice. The equivalent would be a "bad loss demerit".
The 2nd problem is the same thing which Steve advocates. NO GAMES SHOULD BE REMOVED FROM ANYONE'S SCHEDULE JUST BECAUSE YOU DEFEATED A POOR TEAM. The idea that you have to do that shows that it's not a good mathematical system. Besides, if the idea is to use RPI as an end-of-year tool, then it is supposed to evaluate the team's entire body of work for all the season. So, every game should count.

But, also being honest, I would say that neither KRACH nor PWR is in any way predictive. In other words, it's not good practice to say that "Minnesota should win based on KRACH". Hockey especially doesn't work like that. Hot goalies, injuries general weariness, and psychological factors and plain PUCK LUCK are too strong of factors. So, I might use CHN's PPM as a 'game' or 'tool', but I'm certainly not banking on it.

As for the weekend....Minnesota needs to sweep, or they will need to win the tournament to qualify for the NCAAs.

Well...I certainly didn't intend this to be a debate on ratings systems. :D Without getting too deep into inferential stats (lest the Scooby character blows a gasket), I'll take a swing at this with some food for thought. Weighting functions in inferential statistics are never arbitrary. Typically a researcher will examine historical data and allocate more “weight” or influence to some elements of a set to reduce measurement error or inherent bias. For example, the NCAA D1 Men's Hockey Committee consulted with experts within both coaching and analytics fields and weighted road wins over home wins relative to their perceived importance. Same could be said of the QWB, the committee added another IV to incentivise scheduling top 20 teams. Not sure what you mean by the QWB as "statistical double jeopardy".

With regard to the RPI patch, it is common practice in empirical model building to assume (implicitly) that the postulated model does not describe all observations. The intent is to build a model that describes the majority of the observations. This is exactly the aim of robust statistical procedures like the RPI. KRACH uses logistic regression which is not robust, especially with it's lack of team relevant predictors. For example, one problem with the KRACH formulation is that it simply does not handle unbeaten teams. If one team has a non-zero KRACH rating, and an unbeaten team has beaten it, then the unbeaten teams' KRACH rating cannot be high enough to yield the required expected wins. Moreover, KRACH's odds ratio calculations are based upon an assumption that output data from it's inherent syllogistic paradigms are normally distributed. Is this true? Is this rational? Not in the real world. Non-robust tools that violate the assumption of homogeneity of variance are subject to large residual variances. That means a fix is needed.

Arguably the RPI model although much maligned is a robust procedure that ensures the best fit across a large sample population. One could also argue that the KRACH minus the application of a probability density model using MLE, is more retrodictive than the RPI system based upon the NCAA's intervention to also implicitly reduce residual variance.

If you accept that odds are a way of expressing the relative strengths of teams and odds are ALWAYS consistent between teams (such that if A:B and B:C express the odds of Team A beating Team B and Team B beating Team C) then KRACH is your answer to ratings that express the teams' actual wins and losses. Odds ratios are one way of determining SOS, but it is not the only way. I tend to agree with the NCAA that the RPI SOS is more accurate as a function of W%.

The ultimate purpose of the RPI formulation is to help the NCAA determine which teams go to the post-season tournament based upon how they are seeded. It's used by nearly every NCAA sport with one recent exception. IIRC in 2018, they introduced the NCAA Evaluation Tool for NCAA Men's BB (Women's BB kept their version of RPI). Stat gurus took two years to design it.

It's noteworthy that they decided to retain W% and home and away weightings while adding additional factors: Team Value Index, Net Efficiency, Winning Percentage, Adjusted Win Percentage and Scoring Margin. This looks very similar to the RPI intent to reward teams who beat other good teams. Unfortunately for KRACH enthusiasts, they didn't even give it a sniff for some of the reasons I've mentioned. Sorry about the length of this thing. ;)
 
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Re: 2020 B1G Tournament

Well we have Michigan, Notre Dame and Ohio State with tonight's wins but I was in fan heaven with the 9-1 Ohio State win.
If I could have predicted that score I could have made some serious money as I would have been given suckers bet odds.
Wisconsin has a bad taste in their mouths from this one which will make for a VERY intense game tomorrow night!
 
Re: 2020 B1G Tournament

My pessimism appears to have been well founded.

OSU got the memo that they had to win or the season is over, apparently. The rest of us know that already, and have for most of the 2nd half of the season.

Seeing what ND did to Minny- I'm actually rooting for OSU. I don't want to play ND right now.
 
Re: 2020 B1G Tournament

Seeing what ND did to Minny- I'm actually rooting for OSU. I don't want to play ND right now.
I'm going to remember you said you're rooting for us. May have to keep that one in my pocket for future use! ;)
I would like to see guys down here next weekend so good luck tonight, I'm rooting for you too!
 
Re: 2020 B1G Tournament

Well...I certainly didn't intend this to be a debate on ratings systems. :D Without getting too deep into inferential stats (lest the Scooby character blows a gasket), I'll take a swing at this with some food for thought. Weighting functions in inferential statistics are never arbitrary. Typically a researcher will examine historical data and allocate more “weight” or influence to some elements of a set to reduce measurement error or inherent bias. For example, the NCAA D1 Men's Hockey Committee consulted with experts within both coaching and analytics fields and weighted road wins over home wins relative to their perceived importance. Same could be said of the QWB, the committee added another IV to incentivise scheduling top 20 teams. Not sure what you mean by the QWB as "statistical double jeopardy".

With regard to the RPI patch, it is common practice in empirical model building to assume (implicitly) that the postulated model does not describe all observations. The intent is to build a model that describes the majority of the observations. This is exactly the aim of robust statistical procedures like the RPI. KRACH uses logistic regression which is not robust, especially with it's lack of team relevant predictors. For example, one problem with the KRACH formulation is that it simply does not handle unbeaten teams. If one team has a non-zero KRACH rating, and an unbeaten team has beaten it, then the unbeaten teams' KRACH rating cannot be high enough to yield the required expected wins. Moreover, KRACH's odds ratio calculations are based upon an assumption that output data from it's inherent syllogistic paradigms are normally distributed. Is this true? Is this rational? Not in the real world. Non-robust tools that violate the assumption of homogeneity of variance are subject to large residual variances. That means a fix is needed.

Arguably the RPI model although much maligned is a robust procedure that ensures the best fit across a large sample population. One could also argue that the KRACH minus the application of a probability density model using MLE, is more retrodictive than the RPI system based upon the NCAA's intervention to also implicitly reduce residual variance.

If you accept that odds are a way of expressing the relative strengths of teams and odds are ALWAYS consistent between teams (such that if A:B and B:C express the odds of Team A beating Team B and Team B beating Team C) then KRACH is your answer to ratings that express the teams' actual wins and losses. Odds ratios are one way of determining SOS, but it is not the only way. I tend to agree with the NCAA that the RPI SOS is more accurate as a function of W%.

The ultimate purpose of the RPI formulation is to help the NCAA determine which teams go to the post-season tournament based upon how they are seeded. It's used by nearly every NCAA sport with one recent exception. IIRC in 2018, they introduced the NCAA Evaluation Tool for NCAA Men's BB (Women's BB kept their version of RPI). Stat gurus took two years to design it.

It's noteworthy that they decided to retain W% and home and away weightings while adding additional factors: Team Value Index, Net Efficiency, Winning Percentage, Adjusted Win Percentage and Scoring Margin. This looks very similar to the RPI intent to reward teams who beat other good teams. Unfortunately for KRACH enthusiasts, they didn't even give it a sniff for some of the reasons I've mentioned. Sorry about the length of this thing. ;)


You must work for the NCAA - because most of this is nonsense.
 
Re: 2020 B1G Tournament

BTN now has both second rounds games listed on the schedule for regular BTN broadcast.
I heard before it was added they had notified their regular hockey coverage guys of their assignment to cover it at the schools.
 
Re: 2020 B1G Tournament

So I see that the Ohio Governor has suggested that no fans be allowed at indoor games in Ohio. Which would mean the hockey game Sunday.
 
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