2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

[Kepler]

Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

Late 1920's for OTC amphetamine inhalers (Benzedrine), but I was leaning more towards coke.

Given that Ruth was well above replacement in every other Jazz Age vice, I'm sure he was heavily into coke.

Doubt coke helps you hit, though. From what I've seen in clubs it sho' don't help you dance. And your timing is going to have to be outstanding.

 

[Hammer]

Aside from Satchel Paige, who are these great negro leagues pitchers that Ruth missed? I'm sure there were some of course, but your premise seems to be that he missed out on facing an All-Star team. I think that's a big leap. I kinda doubt there were a great many of them unless I see some proof. Most of the greats I've ever heard of were hitters, not pitchers.

I'd also say in Ruth's case the parks were bigger, the pitchers had more license to throw at you especially in an era of no batting helmets where an errant fastball could (and did, in one case) kill you, and travel to visiting ballparks wasn't exactly luxurious. Despite that, it seems he could hit good pitching no matter what the color of the skin of the person throwing the ball to him.

Now imagine if he was born 10 years later, and didn't have to spend the first six years of his career pitching in the dead ball era. If he spends his prime in the 1930s (one of the biggest offensive eras in baseball history) instead of the 1920s, he's probably pushing 900 homers and 2,500 RBI.

When he hit his 60 in 1927, he was already 32 and towards the end of his prime. He effectively did his damage over 15 seasons (1919-1933).

 

[jerphisch]

Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

Doubt coke helps you hit, though.

And steroids do?

 

[Hammer]

The end of his career coincided with the mound being lowered right after he retired.

So I'll discount those last few years for him.

I think the pressure just cracked him.

 

[Rover]

Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

Now imagine if he was born 10 years later, and didn't have to spend the first six years of his career pitching in the dead ball era. If he spends his prime in the 1930s (one of the biggest offensive eras in baseball history) instead of the 1920s, he's probably pushing 900 homers and 2,500 RBI.

When he hit his 60 in 1927, he was already 32 and towards the end of his prime. He effectively did his damage over 15 seasons (1919-1933).

Yup. I saw that too in that he didn't become an everybody player until the 1919 season. Even just adding that to his totals if he'd played outfield instead of pitched and the HR record is probably 800 instead of the tainted 762 or more legit 755.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

Yup. I saw that too in that he didn't become an everybody player until the 1919 season. Even just adding that to his totals if he'd played outfield instead of pitched and the HR record is probably 800 instead of the tainted 762 or more legit 755.

Remarkably, he was a very good pitcher.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

All these hypotheticals are getting preposterous. The fact is he did what he did when he did it.

All of these 'what ifs' didn't happen. It's the beauty of a standard deviation. It shows what they were able to accomplish in that era measured by the same stick as everyone else. THey could raise the mound 5 ft and if someone sticks 6 standard deviations out, is it really hard to argue they aren't in the conversation as an all-timer?

 

[Hammer]

Remarkably, he was a very good pitcher.

He was tremendous. He held some World Series records until the 1950s when Whitey Ford came around and broke them.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

And steroids do?

Yes. If your overall power is greater, it gives you a wider margin of error on where you make contact with the ball. What was a weak grounder to the second baseman is now just over his head. What was a warning track out is now a home run.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

And steroids do?

They help you recover from injuries. They build your muscle mass and give you power. So those two things are important. From what little I have read nobody thinks they help you hit for higher average. Except those balls that used to die on the track.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

All these hypotheticals are getting preposterous. The fact is he did what he did when he did it.

All of these 'what ifs' didn't happen. It's the beauty of a standard deviation. It shows what they were able to accomplish in that era measured by the same stick as everyone else. THey could raise the mound 5 ft and if someone sticks 6 standard deviations out, is it really hard to argue they aren't in the conversation as an all-timer?

This.

 

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

Aside from Satchel Paige, who are these great negro leagues pitchers that Ruth missed? I'm sure there were some of course, but your premise seems to be that he missed out on facing an All-Star team. I think that's a big leap. I kinda doubt there were a great many of them unless I see some proof. Most of the greats I've ever heard of were hitters, not pitchers.

Satchel Paige, Joe Williams, Rube Foster, Bullet Rogan, Martin Dihigo, Leon Day, Bill Foster, Hilton Smith, Ray Brown, Andy Cooper, and Jose Mendez to name a few. Each has been inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame, and pitched in the same era as Ruth.

EDIT: FWIW, there are 9 AL pitchers in the Hall of Fame from Ruth's era (4 of whom were Yankees), and 8 NL pitchers.

 

[Rover]

Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

Satchel Paige, Joe Williams, Rube Foster, Bullet Rogan, Martin Dihigo, Leon Day, Bill Foster, Hilton Smith, Ray Brown, Andy Cooper, and Jose Mendez to name a few. Each has been inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame, and pitched in the same era as Ruth.

Good rundown. I think I'd heard of Rube Foster but not the rest.

Regarding roids, not only do they allow you to recover quicker from injuries (notice how quickly Bonds went downhill with his knees once he was no longer juicing) thus improving your career #'s., or allow fly balls hit at the warning track to now go 20 rows deep, but beyond that you don't need as much reaction time to swing the bat and drive the ball. A guy like Dustin Pedroia has to get his whole body moving forward and make contact with the ball before it reaches the plate to send it anywhere. 30 years ago a lot of infielders and even some center fielders were in this category.

But, if you're jacked up like some muscle bound freak, all you need do is swing your arms and you can generate enough power to send the ball 400 feet. Witness Bonds again later in his career. No big wind up to meet the ball. He could sit back, flick his wrists at the last moment and still drive the ball out.

 

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

All these hypotheticals are getting preposterous. The fact is he did what he did when he did it.

All of these 'what ifs' didn't happen. It's the beauty of a standard deviation. It shows what they were able to accomplish in that era measured by the same stick as everyone else. THey could raise the mound 5 ft and if someone sticks 6 standard deviations out, is it really hard to argue they aren't in the conversation as an all-timer?

I don't think anyone is arguing that these players are not all-time greats. They obviously are. My argument, at its heart, is that you can't really compare pre-integration players with post-integration players.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

you don't need as much reaction time to swing the bat and drive the ball. A guy like Dustin Pedroia has to get his whole body moving forward and make contact with the ball before it reaches the plate to send it anywhere. 30 years ago a lot of infielders and even some center fielders were in this category.

But, if you're jacked up like some muscle bound freak, all you need do is swing your arms and you can generate enough power to send the ball 400 feet. Witness Bonds again later in his career. No big wind up to meet the ball. He could sit back, flick his wrists at the last moment and still drive the ball out.

Holy crap that is a good point and I've never thought of it or read it.

That right there may be the single biggest advantage that roids give you. Honestly, did you read that somewhere or work it out yourself (engineering, bat speed, leverage, makes sense) -- it's brilliant.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

My argument, at its heart, is that you can't really compare pre-integration players with post-integration players.

Mathematically, you can get a glimpse of the effect by looking at the career arcs of players who overlapped both periods. You could get a measure of the improvement in the competition by seeing how quickly they decline compared to someone whose career is entirely in one period or the other. You would expect players whose careers overlapped to decline faster, because they have essentially been "promoted" from AA to AAA MLB.

Then, once you've used this to measure the improvement of the league caused by integration at any given point -- smallest in 1947, then larger each subsequent year until a peak is reached ten (or twenty) years after -- you can apply the appropriate coefficient for league strength to any single season stats, and thus normalize them for all eras.

You can repeat the process with the internationalization of the game in the 90s and 00s, and then again when the Chinese take over in the 2040s.

 

[jerphisch]

Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

Good rundown. I think I'd heard of Rube Foster but not the rest.

Regarding roids, not only do they allow you to recover quicker from injuries (notice how quickly Bonds went downhill with his knees once he was no longer juicing) thus improving your career #'s., or allow fly balls hit at the warning track to now go 20 rows deep, but beyond that you don't need as much reaction time to swing the bat and drive the ball. A guy like Dustin Pedroia has to get his whole body moving forward and make contact with the ball before it reaches the plate to send it anywhere. 30 years ago a lot of infielders and even some center fielders were in this category.

But, if you're jacked up like some muscle bound freak, all you need do is swing your arms and you can generate enough power to send the ball 400 feet. Witness Bonds again later in his career. No big wind up to meet the ball. He could sit back, flick his wrists at the last moment and still drive the ball out.

The problem with this is your list of people who could do that is still just Bonds. The man was a freak, and of course the 'roids made him better, but he was still a freak. It's the same with Lance, yeah he was doping, but he was kicking every other dopers ***. If all it took was a little juice to be that good then everyone would be off the charts.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

Holy crap that is a good point and I've never thought of it or read it.

That right there may be the single biggest advantage that roids give you. Honestly, did you read that somewhere or work it out yourself (engineering, bat speed, leverage, makes sense) -- it's brilliant.

So, did Bonds just forget how to sit back and flick his wrists in the seasons before and after he hit 73? I mean he hit 50% more homeruns that season than he did any other season of his career.

 

[aparch]

Doubt coke helps you hit, though. From what I've seen in clubs it sho' don't help you dance. And your timing is going to have to be outstanding.

Ask Paul Molitor.

<img width=400 src=https://sportshub.cbsistatic.com/p/97c53df0e2f583ba04b6fda58af3b18b/24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_me838keTYP1rge74zo1_1280.jpg>

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

The f-ck is "Button"? Those look like Hrabosky's chops.