2014 Team USA: More?? or Fewer Badgers?????

[dave1381]

Re: 2014 Team USA: More?? or Fewer Badgers?????

Re: the original question

I really don't have a problem with the roster on that basis. Rosters are always going to exhibit some bias in numbers towards the players the coaching staff knows best, from the perspective of those with different information. I'm sure Ben Smith's teams had "too many" eastern players too. I don't really have a problem with this. If Mark Johnson was perfectly informed about every player in the country, would he have taken fewer Badgers/WCHA players? Yes. But that's not realistic, and I think he behaved rationally given the knowledge that he had about his talent pool.

Of course if people have ideas about ways to improve player selection systems rather than making simple statements about outcomes like "too many Badgers" I'm happy to hear it. Is there anything Canada is doing differently in this regard? I thought it may be true that US roster was overall more competitive and dynamic while the Canadian roster was too stagnant, based on the last couple championship results, but I think I now need to re-evaluate that position.

 

[dave1381]

Re: 2014 Team USA: More?? or Fewer Badgers?????

From what I heard Mark Johnson put his eggs in the getting an early lead basket by shortening his bench (I honestly don't get an All-Star Olympic Team needing to shorten its bench, but whatever). When they did not get the lead things fell apart cause he had exhausted his two top lines.

Sounds like a coaching blunder to me. I don't think it has to do with who was on the team, although the self congratulatory aspect of putting a lot of Badgers on the team is evident.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Mark Johnson teams have had much success with come-from-behind victories. Of course with Vetter in net they never had to play from behind much. This is in part why I felt the game was mostly over at 2-0 and definitely over after the failed 5-on-3.

(Of course Mark Johnson is not known for shortening the bench, precisely the opposite. I didn't pay close enough attention to line combos to evaluate that claim)

The one Wisconsin comeback I recall was the 2005 WCHA championship game where Wisconsin came back from a 2-0 deficit in the final minute of the third period. Unfortunately Carla MacLeod was on the other team this time.

 

[DC78-82]

Re: 2014 Team USA: More?? or Fewer Badgers?????

So, rhetorical question, but which thread is going to make some of us resort to a fresh bottle of Pepto-Bismol sooner, this one, or the newly revived Brown Biotch Session

 

[IceIsNice]

Re: 2014 Team USA: More?? or Fewer Badgers?????

COME ON REALLY??????
You should be ashamed of yourself for even starting a topic like this. The 2010 team is a great team. Ask yourself one question. "Would I have started this topic if we had won the gold" Congratulations to a great USA team, and hats off to Canada on their victory

Actually, I'm finding the ensuing discussion quite healthy and informative, even though it does seem to oppose the original implied thesis.

Just as with the five stages of grief, (1. Denial, 2. Anger, 3. Bargaining, 4. Depression, 5. Acceptance), it's healthy to get through the "anger" and "bargaining" stages openly. THEN, we can all move on to the broader fun of "depression" and "acceptance"!

But seriously, though the title may be provocative, I see nothing but excellent points being made from varying perspectives. And so therefore, no I am not ashamed.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: 2014 Team USA: More?? or Fewer Badgers?????

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Mark Johnson teams have had much success with come-from-behind victories. Of course with Vetter in net they never had to play from behind much. This is in part why I felt the game was mostly over at 2-0 and definitely over after the failed 5-on-3.

(Of course Mark Johnson is not known for shortening the bench, precisely the opposite. I didn't pay close enough attention to line combos to evaluate that claim)

The one Wisconsin comeback I recall was the 2005 WCHA championship game where Wisconsin came back from a 2-0 deficit in the final minute of the third period. Unfortunately Carla MacLeod was on the other team this time.

All indications are that he shortened the bench and went for the kill early. Genius if it worked, being shut out in the overall game and unable to mount a comeback at all makes it look pretty dumb. I admire him for gambling but with the talent on this team they should have been able to score.

 

[scrambledlegs]

Re: 2014 Team USA: More?? or Fewer Badgers?????

Yup, Botterill skated right by Darwitz to set up the pass. But it's silly to focus too much on one mistake in a game.

Here are the relevant quotes from the interview:



Nothing in this interview raised a red flag for me when I heard it live. There's a big difference between saying "we played like a young team" which is fine (and accurate) vs. "our younger players didn't execute" and pointing figures.

I agree, to read what she said, does not raise a red flag. I guess when I heard her say it, I thought it was not necessary to evey talk about the age of the team. It should be irrelevant, especially at this level. The team is the team. Therefore, to me, I took it as more of a criticism of the younger players. Maybe not, though.

 

[D2D]

Re: 2014 Team USA: More?? or Fewer Badgers?????

Perhaps she should have been more diplomatic, especially for a captain who by her own admission doesn't normally say much and instead prefers to lead by example. But I can certainly understand her extreme disappointment and frustration after all the hard work and devotion that went into preparing for this one game. My guess is that if she had been asked the same question a day or two later, she would have worded her answer a little differently.

 

[OnMAA]

Re: 2014 Team USA: More?? or Fewer Badgers?????

Perhaps she should have been more diplomatic, especially for a captain who by her own admission doesn't normally say much and instead prefers to lead by example. But I can certainly understand her extreme disappointment and frustration after all the hard work and devotion that went into preparing for this one game. My guess is that if she had been asked the same question a day or two later, she would have worded her answer a little differently.

Not the first time this happens......Last year the Canadian Captain made some "most interesting" post game comments as well that baffled many.

 

[dave1381]

Re: 2014 Team USA: More?? or Fewer Badgers?????

I need to add, the line "We have a young team and at times I felt we played that way" is used so often by coaches after defeats that it's entirely cliche. I don't have any problem with the captain of an Olympic team using it -- it's just so commonly said, I can understand why she wouldn't see any harm in saying it herself.

 

[pucko]

Re: 2014 Team USA: More?? or Fewer Badgers?????

I definitely think there's something to be said for having a "young" team, ie- players that have not been in a gold medal situation. I'm not sure how many returning Canadian Olympic players there were (it sounded like a lot, every time the announcer would mention a name), but there is ALWAYS something to be said for experience. Most of team USA consists of college players and while all the players are extremely talented, playing in an NCAA National Championship is completely different than playing for a Gold Medal -- especially in front of thousands of Canadian fans. Sure, Worlds are a good test, but it's not the final test. I think Team USA had a great showing, but ultimately, I think Canada's experience and physical strength/stamina are what won the game.

I do understand the phrase that a team's a team no matter what the age, but you can't fake experience. That will always be an xfactor that many people overlook. It doesn't matter how talented you are, if you have never been in a situation before, you don't know how you'll react. Canada had players that not only have been in that gold medal game but knew how to win it. I know the US had some players, as well, who had been in the Gold Medal game before, but Potter and Ruggiero were the only ones who have won gold and two players does not compare to 8 or more (?) from Canada.

Congrats to both teams, though!!

 

[OnMAA]

Re: 2014 Team USA: More?? or Fewer Badgers?????

the goalie was great --but US carried the play ? I think you could see shifts in momentum . The shots were even (not the hockey canada count) Canada had 2 more penalty minutes and scored their goals even strength. seemed like canada blocked quite a few shots on pk --at least that's what my failing eyes seemed to see on my small screen . to me centralizing and playing vs maaa boys made them a bit more prepared .

You hit the nose on the head on several points....

US carried the play? ....At times yes, but there were also times the Canadians carried the play for extended periods. IMHO They played a pretty smart third period to preserve the lead (Must have been watching the men the night before).

US failed to penetrate to the net, specially on the PP. Only Lam twin and Knight were doing it. I think that was their undoing. Way too much perimeter play on the PP. Despite all that I think the scoring chances were pretty even.

 

[Hockey it's only a Game]

Re: 2014 Team USA: More?? or Fewer Badgers?????

From a Hockey standpoint, Call that Gold Medal game the way it played
out. Team USA fell behind 2-0 early, they had plenty of chances to get
that 1st goal (2 1/2 periods and a bunch of pp chances) the coaches
should have ajusted to a very hot, focused Canada goalie. Most of the
USA ofensive shots where taken from low percentage far out angles. The
forwards where trying to do it mostly indvidually and that did not seem to
work against the fired up Canadians. Strong point shots on net with some
kind of lose rebound might have made the 1st goal happen?? However the
over all game was great for womens Hockey and some one does have to
lose ? And that is why it is called a Game. Hats off to all the Girls, Coaches and staff. It was a fast, highly skilled game to watch..

 

[dave1381]

Re: 2014 Team USA: More?? or Fewer Badgers?????

pucko's analysis about experience is exactly what I don't buy (esp. re: experience being overlooked -- any serious analysis of the game mentioned the difference in experience.) The two biggest impact players for Canada were their goalie and their teenage forward -- we didn't know how they'd react, they reacted well. Their young players did better than the US young players. And the Canadians veterans did better than the US veterans. The first Canada goal came as a result of one veteran Botterill outskating another US veteran Darwitz, and passing to a Canadian rookie whose shot beat a US Olympic rookie in net. The story of the game wasn't Canadian experience triumphing over American youth.

Yes, Canada had many more gold medal winners than 8. They only had 7 rookies, so everyone else was a gold medal winner. There is perhaps something to be said for the fact that they felt less pressure to win, because they already had their gold medals, while most Americans did not. The veterans who started in 2002 had spent a decade of preparation to play 3 meaningful hockey games, they lost the first, blew the chance to play in the 2nd, and that puts a lot of pressure on the 3rd.

 

[OnMAA]

Re: 2014 Team USA: More?? or Fewer Badgers?????

Hats off to all the Girls, Coaches and staff. It was a fast, highly skilled game to watch..

Agree, Hats off to both teams for an excellent game, showing the level of skill this game can bring to the rest of the world today.

In addition a very classy medal presentation, including the crowd saluting all medalists, with strong cheers for several of the better known US players from the most Canadian crowd. IMHO class and respect the whole way. The US players handled themselves very well in what must be the disappointment of their life for many of them. Hopefully this is the image the young girls watching came away with.

 

[ARM]

Re: 2014 Team USA: More?? or Fewer Badgers?????

The one Wisconsin comeback I recall was the 2005 WCHA championship game where Wisconsin came back from a 2-0 deficit in the final minute of the third period.

Obviously, there were a number of 1-goal comebacks in big games. The biggest multi-goal comeback by the Badgers I remember was the WCHA Final in 2008. UW was down 3-0 and 4-1 before eventually losing in OT. So bigger deficit, same ultimate result.

All indications are that he shortened the bench and went for the kill early.

Are you sure that your friend didn't get confused by the special teams play early? It makes it look like the coach is shortening the bench because the same people tend to be out there a lot, when in reality, it is just a lot of PK and PP and less chance to roll lines 5-on-5. From what I saw, everybody looked to be out there, but I watched the game in a rather disjointed fashion.

 

[sharkie]

Re: 2014 Team USA: More?? or Fewer Badgers?????

Excuse me if I am missing something, but it was only a 2-0 game and Szabados was tremendous. I would just ask USA hockey in the future to pick the best talent. Olympic veterans, veteran leadership and experience are fine, but I will take speed and talent everytime over that. The USA men are doing pretty well with only a couple of returning Olympians. In picking future teams, talent should prevail over all else. Also the political BS hopefully would be eliminated but I doubt that will happen. Lastly, some have mentioned future players, but remember there are late bloomer out there that most of you do not even know about who will come to the forefront in a couple of years.

 

[Hux]

Re: 2014 Team USA: More?? or Fewer Badgers?????

I did not see or hear this, so I'm only going off what you have said here....but it does seem fairly inappropriate, especially since I'm pretty sure (though I could be wrong) that she is the one who didnt lock on and lost track of Poulin on the 2nd goal.

What is it they say about those who live in glass houses...

Nah, her response was to the team having jitters and playing tight. It was specific to that, and not throwing the kids under the bus.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: 2014 Team USA: More?? or Fewer Badgers?????

Are you sure that your friend didn't get confused by the special teams play early? It makes it look like the coach is shortening the bench because the same people tend to be out there a lot, when in reality, it is just a lot of PK and PP and less chance to roll lines 5-on-5. From what I saw, everybody looked to be out there, but I watched the game in a rather disjointed fashion.

Pretty sure. This is an all-star team. You don't fry out your top two lines in the first period. Even if there is a lot of special team play.

 

[justthedriver]

Re: 2014 Team USA: More?? or Fewer Badgers?????

Nah, her response was to the team having jitters and playing tight. It was specific to that, and not throwing the kids under the bus.

Have to agree. In the situation she was in at that time sometimes the words can be misconstrued. I don't think she had any intent to throw any team mate under the bus and was reflecting on recent memory on how she thought the game was going.