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2013-2014 Union Dutchmen - Can U Three Peat? (Part II)

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Re: 2013-2014 Union Dutchmen - Can U Three Peat? (Part II)

Speaking of integrity, since you're locked in anyway, any chance you guys want to just take Friday and Saturday off to get a little more rest for the big dance? I'm sure we can arrange a nice little honorarium from the student fund... ;)
We don't want to hear it from anyone in Redondo Beach Cali after the winter we've been having! :cool:
 
Re: 2013-2014 Union Dutchmen - Can U Three Peat? (Part II)

I wouldn't worry about any intergrity issues. What I would worry about is Quinnipiac becoming a number 1 seed. There are several scenariors where they can be tied with Union at 3. Haven't run any for Umass Lowell yet but assuming same goes for them. Quinnipiac would be interesting with their proximity to Bridgeport. Take care of business in Placid and Bridgeport "should" be a lock.

I can get QU tied with Union at #3, but in every scenario I've seen, Union would still have a better RPI and would thus win the tie-breaker. Are you seeing something different?
 
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Re: 2013-2014 Union Dutchmen - Can U Three Peat? (Part II)

What I was just told by Lisa, in the Lake Placid Ticke Office
http://www.whiteface.com/facilities/olympic-center

The first Friday match is at 4:00pm
The second Friday match is at 7:30pm
The Saturday Final is at 7:30am
The ticket office opens at 8:30am for Will-Call
The doors open Friday 1 hr before the first game at 3:00pm
The Union Alumni get together at the Crown Plaza is at 2:00pm


ECAC HOCKEY GAMES 3/21/2014 4P & 7:30P
Friday, 3/21/14, 4:00PM EDT

Olympic Center
Lake Placid, NY, USA
 
Re: 2013-2014 Union Dutchmen - Can U Three Peat? (Part II)

Also, from Union College Mens Hockey Office - confirming time and date:

Union Hockey has advanced to the ECAC Hockey Championship Weekend in Lake Placid!

Friday, March 21, 2014
Herb Brooks Arena at the Olympic Center in Lake Placid
Semifinal Game #1 Union vs. Cornell 4:00PM
Semifinal Game # 2 7:30 PM

Saturday, March 22, 2014
Championship Game 7:30 PM

Reserve your tickets now!
Contact the Alumni Gym ticket office at (518) 388-6020 or purchase tickets online at www.UnionAthleticsTickets.com.
All session passes are $50 for adults, $40 for juniors and seniors (12 and under or 65+), $20 for Union College students with ID.

Travel with us!
Transportation and ticket packages are available for the championship weekend in Lake Placid including a ticket to all three games and Brown Coach round trip bus transportation. $90 adults, $80 juniors/seniors, $60 for Union College students. Call 518-388-6020 to reserve your spot for the trip. *Minimum number required for the bus trip, please register by Wednesday, March 19th at 2:00 PM.

Join us for pregame festivities with other Union fans!
2:00 - 3:30 p.m. Pregame reception at the Crowne Plaza Resort & Golf Club (101 Olympic Dr, Lake Placid, NY 12946) featuring a pasta bar, grilled vegetables, carved turkey display, variety of hors d' oeuvres, and open bar. $30 per person, $15 children 12 and under. Call the Alumni Office at 518-388-6168 or visit www.Union.edu/alumni to register.

Kelli Hays
Administrative Assistant
Men's Hockey
haysk@union.edu
www.unionathletics.com
Office: 518-388-6288
Cell:
Fax: 518-388-6323
 
Re: 2013-2014 Union Dutchmen - Can U Three Peat? (Part II)

I can get QU tied with Union at #3, but in every scenario I've seen, Union would still have a better RPI and would thus win the tie-breaker. Are you seeing something different?

No but thats not going to guarantee Union going to Bridgeport over QU. They would both be 1 seeds and the commitee can use attendance as one of their criteria.
 
Re: 2013-2014 Union Dutchmen - Can U Three Peat? (Part II)

Three random notes:

1. Union hasn't lost since January.
2. 5 out of Union's 6 losses were by one goal. The other loss was to Colgate by 2 goals thanks to an ENG.
3. Union is now tied with Minnesota for the best winning percentage in college hockey.
 
Re: 2013-2014 Union Dutchmen - Can U Three Peat? (Part II)

Three random notes:

1. Union hasn't lost since January.
2. 5 out of Union's 6 losses were by one goal. The other loss was to Colgate by 2 goals thanks to an ENG.
3. Union is now tied with Minnesota for the best winning percentage in college hockey.
Yes we have a great team and yes anything can happen in single elimination format.
 
Re: 2013-2014 Union Dutchmen - Can U Three Peat? (Part II)

No but thats not going to guarantee Union going to Bridgeport over QU. They would both be 1 seeds and the commitee can use attendance as one of their criteria.

Technically this would not happen because nothing or no one can dislodge Union from being the third #1 seed and would be placed in order, in the site closest to them, so even if QU takes the 4th seed, they can end up in Cinncinati. Also, there is no hard "Attendance Data" to prove putting a team in one location vs another, will improve anything. All this attendance stuff is all bull ****. The Committee has proven that it will do whatever it takes to help HE and BC at the expense of everyone else so nothing is certain. Last year you could have put BC on the moon and it would not have had much difference since there just were not enough BC fans in Providence to make a difference but the Canacous fans showed up in force. Attendance is just an excuse for the committee to do whatever the hell it **** well pleases.
 
Re: 2013-2014 Union Dutchmen - Can U Three Peat? (Part II)

Not that the polls matter, but BC lost twice this weekend, Minnesota lost once, and Union swept. I would expect to see some movement at the top.
 
Re: 2013-2014 Union Dutchmen - Can U Three Peat? (Part II)

Not that the polls matter, but BC lost twice this weekend, Minnesota lost once, and Union swept. I would expect to see some movement at the top.

The countervailing wind is that even the guys who vote in the polls realize they're meaningless, so this time of year they pull their votes in to match the PWR.

But I'd love to see Union be #1 when we play them. "To be the best you gotta beat the best..."
 
Re: 2013-2014 Union Dutchmen - Can U Three Peat? (Part II)

Technically this would not happen because nothing or no one can dislodge Union from being the third #1 seed and would be placed in order, in the site closest to them, so even if QU takes the 4th seed, they can end up in Cinncinati. Also, there is no hard "Attendance Data" to prove putting a team in one location vs another, will improve anything. All this attendance stuff is all bull ****. The Committee has proven that it will do whatever it takes to help HE and BC at the expense of everyone else so nothing is certain. Last year you could have put BC on the moon and it would not have had much difference since there just were not enough BC fans in Providence to make a difference but the Canacous fans showed up in force. Attendance is just an excuse for the committee to do whatever the hell it **** well pleases.


In setting up the tournament, the committee begins with a list of priorities to ensure a successful tournament on all fronts, including competitive equity, financial success and the likelihood of a playoff-type atmosphere at each regional site. For this model, the following is a basic set of priorities:

1. Once the six automatic qualifiers and 10 at-large teams are selected, the next step is to develop four groups from the committee’s rankings of 1-16. The top four teams are No. 1 seeds and will be placed in the bracket so that if all four teams advance to the Men’s Frozen Four, the No. 1 seed will play the No. 4 seed and the No. 2 seed will play the No. 3 seed in the semifinals. The next four are targeted as No. 2 seeds. The next four are No. 3 seeds and the last four are No. 4 seeds.

2. Step two is to place the home teams. Host institutions that qualify will be placed at home.

3. Step three is to fill in the bracket so that first-round conference matchups are avoided, unless it corrupts the integrity of the bracket. If five or more teams from one conference are selected to the championship, then the integrity of the bracket will be protected (i.e., maintaining the pairing process according to seed will take priority over avoidance of first-round conference matchups). To complete each regional, the committee assigns one team from each of the remaining seeded groups so there is a No. 1, No. 2, No. 3 and No. 4 seed at each regional site.



Read more: http://www.uscho.com/bracketology/#ixzz2wEc4yAOM


Where does it say #1 seeds are placed closer to home? Step 2 is to place the home teams, not the number 1 seeds. Only would apply to Bridgeport if Yale made it.
 
Re: 2013-2014 Union Dutchmen - Can U Three Peat? (Part II)

Where does it say #1 seeds are placed closer to home? Step 2 is to place the home teams, not the number 1 seeds. Only would apply to Bridgeport if Yale made it.

I can't speak for everyone, but I know it doesn't say that anywhere. My thinking over the past few weeks has been that it wouldn't be fair to Union if they were a #1 seed and had to be moved to, say, Cincinnati. But the only reason that would happen is a scenario where Yale made it in the field of 16 and ended up as a #4 seed...that's pretty much out the window now, so I think a lot of things are on the table.
 
Re: 2013-2014 Union Dutchmen - Can U Three Peat? (Part II)

There seems to be a strong possibility of a Union, Qpac, Providence UVM regional in Bridgeport. How interesting would that be? Union Qpac rivalry an obvious one and two former coaches of the other two teams. :eek:
 
Re: 2013-2014 Union Dutchmen - Can U Three Peat? (Part II)

Where does it say #1 seeds are placed closer to home? Step 2 is to place the home teams, not the number 1 seeds. Only would apply to Bridgeport if Yale made it.

You are flat wrong. If you want to get at the facts go the College Hockey News. http://www.collegehockeynews.com/info/?d=pwcrpi

Seeding Process

Overview: There have generally been two sacrosanct philosophies when it comes to the seeding process. 1. teams that are hosting a regional must be placed in that region; 2. avoid first-round games (and second-round, if possible) against teams from the same conference. Other factors, such as maximizing gate revenue, and limiting travel have become de-emphasized since the tournament went from 12 to 16 teams in 2003.
How the seeds are determined: Since the advent of the objective system of Comparisons, there has always been a step-by-step methodology to determining the seeds. But since going to a 16-team tournament, the methodology has become highly straightforward. For one, there was a time when the emphasis was more upon individual comparisons. Now, the Pairwise Comparison chart, as described above, is used to rank the teams in a straight 1-16. (Note: This methodology is not outlined in the Ice Hockey manual, it has simply become the practice of the committee over time -- and was determined by the media via observation.) The teams are then grouped into four "bands" of four, with teams 1-4 given No. 1 seeds (Band 1), 5-8 given No. 2 seeds (Band 2), 9-12 given No. 3 seeds (Band 3), and 13-16 given No. 4 seeds (Band 4). Ties among teams in the amount of team-to-team comparisons they have won, at one time, were broken by looking at those individual comparisons among the teams in question. Now such a tie is generally broken by simply looking at the RPI.
No. 1 seeds: The No. 1 seeds are ranked 1-2-3-4, and then placed, in that order, in the region closest to home as possible.
The rest: For the remaining teams, the current practice no longer favors geography, but instead places a strong premium upon maintaining a "serpentine" order. i.e. 1 vs. 16, 2 vs. 15, 3 vs. 14, etc... with the second-round set up to preserve, if possible, a 1 vs. 8, 2 vs. 7, 3 vs. 6, 4 vs. 5 setup. The committee will mix and match teams within bands in order to preserve the two sacrosanct issues mentioned above, but will not move teams outside their band. Generally speaking, in order to avoid an intra-conference matchup, the committee prefers flip-flopping the No. 3 seeds within their band to different regionals, as opposed to No. 2 seeds. Either way would work, but they have usually chosen the former.
Frozen Four: The regional winners that will face each other in the national semifinals (the Frozen Four semis) are pre-determined prior to the start of the tournament under the assumption that the four No. 1 seeds will advance. The region of the No. 1 overall seed is matched with the region of the No. 4 overall seed, and same for No. 2 and 3. This holds even if the No. 1 seeds get eliminated in the regional.
 
Re: 2013-2014 Union Dutchmen - Can U Three Peat? (Part II)

I can't speak for everyone, but I know it doesn't say that anywhere. My thinking over the past few weeks has been that it wouldn't be fair to Union if they were a #1 seed and had to be moved to, say, Cincinnati. But the only reason that would happen is a scenario where Yale made it in the field of 16 and ended up as a #4 seed...that's pretty much out the window now, so I think a lot of things are on the table.

I guess the main question becomes if the 4 #1 seeds are: Minn, BC, Union and Quinnipiac, in that order, does Union get the Bridgeport advantage for being higher or does QU get the advantage for being 20 miles away?
 
Re: 2013-2014 Union Dutchmen - Can U Three Peat? (Part II)

You are flat wrong. If you want to get at the facts go the College Hockey News. http://www.collegehockeynews.com/info/?d=pwcrpi

Seeding Process

Overview: There have generally been two sacrosanct philosophies when it comes to the seeding process. 1. teams that are hosting a regional must be placed in that region; 2. avoid first-round games (and second-round, if possible) against teams from the same conference. Other factors, such as maximizing gate revenue, and limiting travel have become de-emphasized since the tournament went from 12 to 16 teams in 2003.
How the seeds are determined: Since the advent of the objective system of Comparisons, there has always been a step-by-step methodology to determining the seeds. But since going to a 16-team tournament, the methodology has become highly straightforward. For one, there was a time when the emphasis was more upon individual comparisons. Now, the Pairwise Comparison chart, as described above, is used to rank the teams in a straight 1-16. (Note: This methodology is not outlined in the Ice Hockey manual, it has simply become the practice of the committee over time -- and was determined by the media via observation.) The teams are then grouped into four "bands" of four, with teams 1-4 given No. 1 seeds (Band 1), 5-8 given No. 2 seeds (Band 2), 9-12 given No. 3 seeds (Band 3), and 13-16 given No. 4 seeds (Band 4). Ties among teams in the amount of team-to-team comparisons they have won, at one time, were broken by looking at those individual comparisons among the teams in question. Now such a tie is generally broken by simply looking at the RPI.
No. 1 seeds: The No. 1 seeds are ranked 1-2-3-4, and then placed, in that order, in the region closest to home as possible.
The rest: For the remaining teams, the current practice no longer favors geography, but instead places a strong premium upon maintaining a "serpentine" order. i.e. 1 vs. 16, 2 vs. 15, 3 vs. 14, etc... with the second-round set up to preserve, if possible, a 1 vs. 8, 2 vs. 7, 3 vs. 6, 4 vs. 5 setup. The committee will mix and match teams within bands in order to preserve the two sacrosanct issues mentioned above, but will not move teams outside their band. Generally speaking, in order to avoid an intra-conference matchup, the committee prefers flip-flopping the No. 3 seeds within their band to different regionals, as opposed to No. 2 seeds. Either way would work, but they have usually chosen the former.
Frozen Four: The regional winners that will face each other in the national semifinals (the Frozen Four semis) are pre-determined prior to the start of the tournament under the assumption that the four No. 1 seeds will advance. The region of the No. 1 overall seed is matched with the region of the No. 4 overall seed, and same for No. 2 and 3. This holds even if the No. 1 seeds get eliminated in the regional.

I quoted the NCAA handbook and you quoted CHN and I'm flat out wrong? Nice try but I'm going to trust the NCAA handbook. PWR is used to get the correct 16 teams in. After that the NC$$ has done some funny things to protect the mighty dollar.
 
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Re: 2013-2014 Union Dutchmen - Can U Three Peat? (Part II)

I quoted the NCAA handbook and you quoted CHN and I'm flat out wrong? Nice try but I'm going to trust the NCAA handbook. PWR is used to get the correct 16 teams in. After that the NC$$ has done some funny things to protect the mighty dollar.

Since the committee has gone against its own rules, time and time again, you have to follow their practices over the years which CHN has done an exception job on. See http://www.collegehockeynews.com/info/?d=pwcrpi right column.

Seeding Process
Overview: There have generally been two sacrosanct philosophies when it comes to the seeding process. 1. teams that are hosting a regional must be placed in that region; 2. avoid first-round games (and second-round, if possible) against teams from the same conference. Other factors, such as maximizing gate revenue, and limiting travel have become de-emphasized since the tournament went from 12 to 16 teams in 2003.
How the seeds are determined: Since the advent of the objective system of Comparisons, there has always been a step-by-step methodology to determining the seeds. But since going to a 16-team tournament, the methodology has become highly straightforward. For one, there was a time when the emphasis was more upon individual comparisons. Now, the Pairwise Comparison chart, as described above, is used to rank the teams in a straight 1-16. (Note: This methodology is not outlined in the Ice Hockey manual, it has simply become the practice of the committee over time -- and was determined by the media via observation.) The teams are then grouped into four "bands" of four, with teams 1-4 given No. 1 seeds (Band 1), 5-8 given No. 2 seeds (Band 2), 9-12 given No. 3 seeds (Band 3), and 13-16 given No. 4 seeds (Band 4). Ties among teams in the amount of team-to-team comparisons they have won, at one time, were broken by looking at those individual comparisons among the teams in question. Now such a tie is generally broken by simply looking at the RPI.
No. 1 seeds: The No. 1 seeds are ranked 1-2-3-4, and then placed, in that order, in the region closest to home as possible.
The rest: For the remaining teams, the current practice no longer favors geography, but instead places a strong premium upon maintaining a "serpentine" order. i.e. 1 vs. 16, 2 vs. 15, 3 vs. 14, etc... with the second-round set up to preserve, if possible, a 1 vs. 8, 2 vs. 7, 3 vs. 6, 4 vs. 5 setup. The committee will mix and match teams within bands in order to preserve the two sacrosanct issues mentioned above, but will not move teams outside their band. Generally speaking, in order to avoid an intra-conference matchup, the committee prefers flip-flopping the No. 3 seeds within their band to different regionals, as opposed to No. 2 seeds. Either way would work, but they have usually chosen the former.
Frozen Four: The regional winners that will face each other in the national semifinals (the Frozen Four semis) are pre-determined prior to the start of the tournament under the assumption that the four No. 1 seeds will advance. The region of the No. 1 overall seed is matched with the region of the No. 4 overall seed, and same for No. 2 and 3. This holds even if the No. 1 seeds get eliminated in the regional.

Also, USCHO are lightweights. They had to borrow CHN's algorithm for calculalting pairwise.
 
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Re: 2013-2014 Union Dutchmen - Can U Three Peat? (Part II)

I guess the main question becomes if the 4 #1 seeds are: Minn, BC, Union and Quinnipiac, in that order, does Union get the Bridgeport advantage for being higher or does QU get the advantage for being 20 miles away?

This is where I wouldn't want to be the committee...I think it's safe to say BC will be the #1 in Worcester (makes no sense to send U or Q there as the #1 and BC to Bridgeport), so it then becomes a decision as to who to put in Bridgeport. I'm sure many will say Quinnipiac because of the proximity, but then how do you tell Union to travel far away when they've been solid at #3 for several weeks? If you then put Union in Bridgeport, how do you tell Quinnipiac that they should travel to Cincy when they'd get an attendance boost in Bridgeport?

Yes, I'm biased, but I'd lean towards Union in Bridgeport because they've consistently been up there. That's just me, though....
 
Re: 2013-2014 Union Dutchmen - Can U Three Peat? (Part II)

This is where I wouldn't want to be the committee...I think it's safe to say BC will be the #1 in Worcester (makes no sense to send U or Q there as the #1 and BC to Bridgeport), so it then becomes a decision as to who to put in Bridgeport. I'm sure many will say Quinnipiac because of the proximity, but then how do you tell Union to travel far away when they've been solid at #3 for several weeks? If you then put Union in Bridgeport, how do you tell Quinnipiac that they should travel to Cincy when they'd get an attendance boost in Bridgeport?

Yes, I'm biased, but I'd lean towards Union in Bridgeport because they've consistently been up there. That's just me, though....

This should not be an issue. Look at Dutchman's link:

No. 1 seeds: The No. 1 seeds are ranked 1-2-3-4, and then placed, in that order, in the region closest to home as possible.

That means Union should be in Bridgeport. Q's proximity doesn't matter.
 
Re: 2013-2014 Union Dutchmen - Can U Three Peat? (Part II)

The countervailing wind is that even the guys who vote in the polls realize they're meaningless, so this time of year they pull their votes in to match the PWR.

But I'd love to see Union be #1 when we play them. "To be the best you gotta beat the best..."

Up to #2 for the first time in school history.
 
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