What's new
USCHO Fan Forum

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • The USCHO Fan Forum has migrated to a new plaform, xenForo. Most of the function of the forum should work in familiar ways. Please note that you can switch between light and dark modes by clicking on the gear icon in the upper right of the main menu bar. We are hoping that this new platform will prove to be faster and more reliable. Please feel free to explore its features.

2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Status
Not open for further replies.
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Consider:
> we want to see people with 20 years experience in a field earning more than a newcomer to the same field, no? We want people to get better at their jobs from training and experience, do we not?
> we expect people working full-time to have higher earned incomes than semi-retired people or people working part-time, do we not?
> we expect professionals generally to earn more than people who primarily perform unskilled physical labor, do we not?

And another thing: All of these things sound like your average government employee. A full-time, experienced professional who's been at their job for 10-15 years. This seems to be you agreeing that government employees should be suitably compensated.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

That appears to be the world we now live in. Greed is good for the job creators, but not anybody else.
If greed was eliminated, and we were all fat dumb and happy, what is the incentive to produce more to acquire a higher station in life via a higher income? We'd be stagnant. Thomas Edison was greedy. John Rockefeller was greedy. J.P. Morgan was greedy. Andrew Carnegie was greedy. Bill Gates is greedy. Henry Ford was greedy. Each of these greedy people produced great things that made America a great nation.

Greed IS good. Too much greed, as in too much of anything, is a bad thing.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

It seems we may agree on some things and disagree on other things.

First off, for the sake of discussion, let's say that the highest income earners today are earning more relative to the lower income earners today compared to the same ratio from 30 years ago.

I think this has been established.

The most important question; is this necessarily a problem?


Consider:
> we want to see people with 20 years experience in a field earning more than a newcomer to the same field, no? We want people to get better at their jobs from training and experience, do we not?
> we expect people working full-time to have higher earned incomes than semi-retired people or people working part-time, do we not?
> we expect professionals generally to earn more than people who primarily perform unskilled physical labor, do we not?


I can easily imagine a variety of scenarios in which a wider ratio between highest income earners and lowest income earners is a sign either of neutral events or even positive events: maybe our population is getting older, and so we have more retired people than before; maybe people have become less materialistic and prefer working more relaxed part-time jobs in exchange for a higher quality of life instead of working harrowing full-time jobs with miserable quality of life; maybe for every two low-skilled job "outsourced" overseas, we also create one new higher-skilled managerial / marketing / sales job here as well.

So, the challenge could revert back to you: why do you say an increase in income disparity "must be" a bad thing without even looking at quality of life measures?

My analysis is not inconsistent with yours as we are talking about two different things at this point. You still haven't demonstrated why increased income disparity "must be" a problem; however in the current situation, I say there is a pretty clear correlation between the increased scope of the so-called "safety net;" increased dependency from the people at the bottom of the income pyramid; and in turn, because the people at the bottom are falling further and further behind, income disparity is widening.

I don't think "the rich" have done anything wrong other than comply with the laws passed by others in order to get elected.

First, I will say I'm a management consultant and more on the side of 'liberal elite' than on the side of a 'lunchpail blue collar dem' side of things.

I am a full supporter of the incredible value of capitalism, the profit motive and the marketplace. There has never been any doubt that it is the top way to get to increased quality of life for society. That's not to say that it can't operate effectively without a set of guidelines.

Having said that, there needs to be disparity in income. I am a believer that those in congress should be making a million or more salaries...and that corporate ceos do deserve the large incomes they earn. Even if corporate boards can be poor judges of executive compensensation, entreprenuers, top executvies and top governing officials add massive value to society and they deserve to be compensated amounts equal to that value. I have never said anything to the contrary.

Having said that, the debt is massive and really cannot be addressed by cuts alone. Revenue will be needed; its a must. Taxing those who's big brains are tied to creating value...should not be hit so hard by taxes. But as I said, you must tax something....I don't want to tax businesses, I don't want that much of an increase in tax to affluent folks driving value...that leaves taxing money. Its not that we're taxing gains on money to death. Its that we're hardly taxing the income earned by money today. Its also fair to tax money vs. labor as I'd rather reward people who are slaving at difficult jobs (whether they're flipping burgers or working demanding exec jobs)...than sitting on their can as their million earns more millions and is taxed at a fraction of the rate.

Lastly, there is a disparity in wealth. It is as it should be that those adding massive value receive higher incomes...and therefore a disparity exists. So the reward system is approximately as it should be. But disparity's outcome is a big and growing problem. Looking at the outcome of society in its entirely, someone with a million salary...getting an extra 40k means little and just pads the savings account. For others, 40k a year can mean the difference between supporting ones family and being on the street. Many are hard working folks who are really trying to support their families and structural issues such as jobs going overseas, their jobs are drying up.

Likewise, its a challenge for moving the country forward. If you as a country rely on your labor force to create a competitive country...you need to give your labor force as many tools as possible to succeed. If the bottom half of the society is struggling to make ends meet...its harder for them to have opportunities to further develop their skillset. Also if you look at tax implications...federal revenues are much healthier with a balanced tax payer portfolio. If you have a small amount of affluent who pay little due to capital gains schemes...and the rest of society who are out of work...that reduces tax revenues, which reduces govt expenditures, which reduces the country's gdp and increases debt problems, etc. The greater problem is that this will increase as the US is great and growing in multi million dollar entreprenuerial jobs and bad with and losing lower middle income manufacturing jobs. This trend will continue and further increase wealth disparity.

So long story short, the system works well by rewarding those who generate value...but the outcome of the majority of wealth being concentrated in so few hands is a major problem for society in terms of health and opportunity...and this problematic disparity will increase with abandon and no solution in sight.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

I have a serious question for those involved...

What is the importance of who is to blame? Why is this more important than determining a solution?
 
If greed was eliminated, and we were all fat dumb and happy, what is the incentive to produce more to acquire a higher station in life via a higher income? We'd be stagnant. Thomas Edison was greedy. John Rockefeller was greedy. J.P. Morgan was greedy. Andrew Carnegie was greedy. Bill Gates is greedy. Henry Ford was greedy. Each of these greedy people produced great things that made America a great nation.

Greed IS good. Too much greed, as in too much of anything, is a bad thing.

All of these people invested in the united states. People like Romney, etc park their money overseas. Big difference.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

All of these people invested in the united states. People like Romney, etc park their money overseas. Big difference.

Because we all know the Winter Olympics in Salt Lake City were overseas. :rolleyes:
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Because we all know the Winter Olympics in Salt Lake City were overseas. :rolleyes:
Mitt proved he has no problem spending taxpayer money in Salt Lake City. His own...not so much.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Ya gotta love knuckledraggers. Now they're voting down treaties meant to prevent disabled people from being discriminated against. Even sickly, almost 90 year old flaming liberal Bob Dole tried to lobby his now lunatic party to no avail.

Senate rejects United Nations treaty for disabled rights in a 61-38 vote
By Ramsey Cox and Julian Pecquet - 12/04/12 12:29 PM ET

Tweet
A United Nations treaty to ban discrimination against people with disabilities went down to defeat in the Senate on Tuesday in a 61-38 vote.

The treaty, backed by President Obama and former Senate Majority Leader Bob Dole (R-Kan.), fell 5 votes short of the two-thirds majority needed for confirmation as dozens of Senate Republicans objected that it would create new abortion rights and impede the ability of people to home-school disabled children.


Sen. James Inhofe (R-Okla.) argued the treaty would infringe on U.S. sovereignty, an argument echoed by other opponents.

“This unelected bureaucratic body would pass recommendations that would be forced upon the United States if we were a signatory,” he said.

Supporters of the treaty argued that the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities would simply require the rest of the world to meet the standards that Americans already enjoy under the 1990 Americans with Disabilities Act.

RELATED ARTICLES
Santorum tweet: 'We did it'
Bob Dole returns to Senate to watch treaty vote
The treaty was negotiated and first signed under former President George W. Bush and signed again by Obama in 2009. At least 153 other countries have signed it.

Republican Sens. Kelly Ayotte (N.H.), John Barrasso (Wyo.), Scott Brown (Mass.), Susan Collins (Maine), Dick Lugar (Ind.), John McCain (Ariz.), Olympia Snowe (Maine) and Lisa Murkowski (Alaska) voted with Democrats in favor of the treaty.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

More from The Hill:
♦ Boehner goes on PR blitz to counter Obama
♦ Warren tapped for Senate Banking panel
♦ DeMint slams Boehner deficit counteroffer
♦ GOP leaders oust lawmakers from plum posts
♦ Internet 'founding father' sounds alarm over UN treaty
♦ Health groups to Nickelodeon: Stop hawking junk food
♦ Senate Dems push climate change amendment
♦ US oil production hits 15-year high



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Democrats and advocates for people with disabilities argued that recommendations from a panel created by the treaty would be advisory only, not binding, and that the treaty did not create any new legal rights in state or federal courts. Democrats brought in several Republican senators, including Dole, a disabled veteran, to help make their case.

Republican opposition was led by Sen. Mike Lee (R-Utah) and former Sen. Rick Santorum (R-Pa.).

Speaking on the Senate floor Tuesday, Lee said he was concerned that U.N. committee recommendations “often fall well beyond the treaty’s goals.”

“I and many of my constituents who home-school or send their children to religious schools have justifiable doubt that a foreign body based in Geneva, Switzerland, should be deciding what is best for a child at home in Utah,” Lee said.

Sen. John Kerry (D-Mass.) said the U.N. committee recommendations would be nonbinding, prompting Lee to ask, “if this does nothing, then why would we ratify it?”

Kerry countered that the treaty would allow the United States to serve on the committee to advocate for the rights of U.S. veterans and citizens living or traveling abroad.

“I have not said it does nothing,” Kerry said. “I said it does not change U.S. law, that is different from saying it doesn’t do anything. If it didn’t do anything I wouldn’t be here, nor would President Bush have signed it.”

In September, 36 Senate Republicans called on the leaders of both parties not to consider any treaties during the lame-duck session. Democrats countered that the current Congress is the best-equipped to approve treaties because its members are the ones who did the work to pass it out of committee over the summer.

McCain, a treaty supporter, argued senators who signed the letter shouldn't feel bound to vote against the treaty because the letter only opposed consideration of treaties, not passage.

“There is no reason we shouldn’t have a vote on this,” McCain said Monday. “The letter says they oppose consideration ... but we have adopted consideration.”



Not sure how you people can live with yourselves.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Ya gotta love knuckledraggers. Now they're voting down treaties meant to prevent disabled people from being discriminated against. Even sickly, almost 90 year old flaming liberal Bob Dole tried to lobby his now lunatic party to no avail.

And how does that stop the country from doing something that makes sense locally? The point of not passing the treaty is to not allow for the advancement of a New World Order by surrendering to the rest of the world.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

And how does that stop the country from doing something that makes sense locally? The point of not passing the treaty is to not allow for the advancement of a New World Order by surrendering to the rest of the world.

We already have done everything locally. The treaty was showing the world that we want the same standards we have applied globally. It's amazing how the Republicans have spun this as some sort of conspiracy against US sovereignty. By the US not voting for this it will set back rights for disabled folks globally for years maybe decades. It makes sense though. Republicans work for the rich. The rich move their jobs overseas. Disability rights increase costs in the work place. Keeping that out of countries where we can set up factories makes supplying Wal-Mart cheaper. And the cycle continues.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

And how does that stop the country from doing something that makes sense locally? The point of not passing the treaty is to not allow for the advancement of a New World Order by surrendering to the rest of the world.

Ah, it's starting to make sense now. So, need any help stocking the bunker for December 21?
 
And how does that stop the country from doing something that makes sense locally? The point of not passing the treaty is to not allow for the advancement of a New World Order by surrendering to the rest of the world.

You do understand treaties are both explicitly permitted by the constitution and generally expected to be signed and ratified from time to time, right? That's not surrendering, it's being an active citizen.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

So long story short, the system works well by rewarding those who generate value...but the outcome of the majority of wealth being concentrated in so few hands is a major problem for society in terms of health and opportunity...and this problematic disparity will increase with abandon and no solution in sight.

So we pretty much agree on the problem; though I see that "the majority of wealth being concentrated in so few hands" as a failure by society to lift up those on the bottom. Most of the really wealthy generally have also endowed massive foundations with most of their wealth. The concept that "I was lucky as well as successful and want to give back" is (or at least had been) pretty deeply ingrained.

I know many people who hate to pay taxes who also are very philanthropic. There are too many people in between the tax dollar as collected and the tax pennies as ultimately spent for government ever to be effective as a redistributive engine as you and I are discussing; the major beneficiaries of the redistribution nowadays are people who work for government.

We don't need a full-time Congress, we don't need lots of new laws every year, we don't need 15 :eek: Cabinet departments.

We do need some regulation and some government, it is striking the proper balance. We don't really have a revenue problem either; we have a problem of too little productivity and too little economic growth. Get the economy growing at a 4.5% annual rate and we'll have plenty of revenues. This debate over raising rates is merely a smokescreen to distract us from how little structural reform is being proposed on the expenditure side.


It was really interesting to hear from GWB again: he has a pro-growth solution in immigration reform; the same kind of immigration reform that Silicon Valley entrepreneurs are begging for.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

So we pretty much agree on the problem; though I see that "the majority of wealth being concentrated in so few hands" as a failure by society to lift up those on the bottom. Most of the really wealthy generally have also endowed massive foundations with most of their wealth. The concept that "I was lucky as well as successful and want to give back" is (or at least had been) pretty deeply ingrained.

I know many people who hate to pay taxes who also are very philanthropic. There are too many people in between the tax dollar as collected and the tax pennies as ultimately spent for government ever to be effective as a redistributive engine as you and I are discussing; the major beneficiaries of the redistribution nowadays are people who work for government.

We don't need a full-time Congress, we don't need lots of new laws every year, we don't need 15 :eek: Cabinet departments.

We do need some regulation and some government, it is striking the proper balance. We don't really have a revenue problem either; we have a problem of too little productivity and too little economic growth. Get the economy growing at a 4.5% annual rate and we'll have plenty of revenues. This debate over raising rates is merely a smokescreen to distract us from how little structural reform is being proposed on the expenditure side.


It was really interesting to hear from GWB again: he has a pro-growth solution in immigration reform; the same kind of immigration reform that Silicon Valley entrepreneurs are begging for.

Its not that simple. The rich are often philanthropic, which is great. But the rich are also a large part of the special interests that makes our govenment totally disfunctional. The rich are not evil...but nor are they the always 'good guys'. Likewise, the rich aren't to be blamed for the situation, but they are as responsible for the solution as anyone.

The world changes. The country changes. New technologies, new developments, new economic challenges. We do need a full time Congress. The government does need to be cut. But government services are like any other product we buy. Much of the government is driving significant value. The military tops the list of nonvalue add services that pushes massive amounts of US dollars overseas. And remember that by far the #1 customer for US businesses is the US government. As that demand dries up due to cuts...you better darn well hope that the business community steps up and covers for govt expenditures or the economy will absolutely get slammed.

On the revenue side, its not just a matter of saying 'let's hope we get a better economy' and then the debt will be fixed. If your inference is that is that the economy sucks because of one guy in the white house...you're seriously misguided. GOP administrations have by and large had as bad (or arguably much worse) track records on the economy. The problem is that we are facing massive high productivity, low wage competition from overseas that is leading to long term structural challenges that we can't just wish away. You have to understand the problem to find a solution.

In the end, there are two sides to any debt issue...revenues and expenses. Anyone who refuses to use all the tools in the toolbox...doesn't deserve to have a say in finding a solution to the problem.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Consider:
> we want to see people with 20 years experience in a field earning more than a newcomer to the same field, no? We want people to get better at their jobs from training and experience, do we not?
> we expect people working full-time to have higher earned incomes than semi-retired people or people working part-time, do we not?
> we expect professionals generally to earn more than people who primarily perform unskilled physical labor, do we not?

I'm going slightly off topic here, but this reminded me of a current event here in Maine. One of the school districts in northern Maine (like 200+ miles north of Bangor) is making major cuts because the town gave a huge tax cut to the local paper mill (it threatened to shut down otherwise, which would be devastating to the town). The teachers took what was almost a 10% paycut and the administration took a 2% pay cut. Looking through the comments in the paper, there were people happy the teachers were getting their pay cut. Some even went so far as to say that teachers should not be making more than the public which pays them (in many rural towns teaching jobs are some of the highest paid) -- never mind the fact that in many small rural towns the average income is terribly low as most of the jobs are low skill and low pay. Don't you want to have the best and brightest teaching your children? You don't attract the best and brightest with ****ty pay.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Its not that simple. The rich are often philanthropic, which is great. But the rich are also a large part of the special interests that makes our govenment totally disfunctional. The rich are not evil...but nor are they the always 'good guys'. Likewise, the rich aren't to be blamed for the situation, but they are as responsible for the solution as anyone.

The world changes. The country changes. New technologies, new developments, new economic challenges. We do need a full time Congress. The government does need to be cut. But government services are like any other product we buy. Much of the government is driving significant value. The military tops the list of nonvalue add services that pushes massive amounts of US dollars overseas. And remember that by far the #1 customer for US businesses is the US government. As that demand dries up due to cuts...you better darn well hope that the business community steps up and covers for govt expenditures or the economy will absolutely get slammed.

On the revenue side, its not just a matter of saying 'let's hope we get a better economy' and then the debt will be fixed. If your inference is that is that the economy sucks because of one guy in the white house...you're seriously misguided. GOP administrations have by and large had as bad (or arguably much worse) track records on the economy. The problem is that we are facing massive high productivity, low wage competition from overseas that is leading to long term structural challenges that we can't just wish away. You have to understand the problem to find a solution.

In the end, there are two sides to any debt issue...revenues and expenses. Anyone who refuses to use all the tools in the toolbox...doesn't deserve to have a say in finding a solution to the problem.

OK, so the rich share some responsibility. That doesn't relieve those not within that category of responsibility. I've already mentioned several times where I'm going with that, so there's no need to wear out the keyboard.

Sure, the government buys a lot. At least we can agree that they have a limited number of resources. Perhaps, then, it's time for the government to respect the recession and fall back? Instead of trying to spend our way out of problems, perhaps it's best to stop over-spending and redirect capital towards something else. It's just like any failed business idea. Eventually, you figure out that the best course of action is to throw in the towel and try another route. There's no need to go all in if you don't have to. I don't know if the USA is past the point of no return, but perhaps it's time to salvage something instead of heading into 500 years of Great Depression, a la the Middle Ages.

Are you willing to become competitive in the productivity/wage competition? If not, it should be no surprise that no one wants to be here. We're well beyond the point of understanding the problem. You've already placed the problems on the table. There's no need to shove it down our throat any longer, so let's come up with a solution. However, you can't have your cake and eat it, too. Either we look to remove artificial price controls in order to compete, or we throw in the towel when it comes to manufacturing and look to excel somewhere else. It'd be like asking an army to knock down the walls to a city with their fist while flat out refusing to develop even a sledgehammer. They come with cannons almost like The Charge of the Light Brigade (Joseph Marcell impersonations welcome) and take down your wall as if it were tissue paper.

Also, you said that the economy does not tank because of one guy in the White House, yet economies go into the tank when a G-O-Pig is in the White House. Because you've been fairly attentive in hearing all sides of the story (heck, I haven't put you on ignore, unlike a few other muppets), I'll give you a chance to think that over and re-phrase it. ;)
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

I'm going slightly off topic here, but this reminded me of a current event here in Maine. One of the school districts in northern Maine (like 200+ miles north of Bangor) is making major cuts because the town gave a huge tax cut to the local paper mill (it threatened to shut down otherwise, which would be devastating to the town). The teachers took what was almost a 10% paycut and the administration took a 2% pay cut. Looking through the comments in the paper, there were people happy the teachers were getting their pay cut. Some even went so far as to say that teachers should not be making more than the public which pays them (in many rural towns teaching jobs are some of the highest paid) -- never mind the fact that in many small rural towns the average income is terribly low as most of the jobs are low skill and low pay. Don't you want to have the best and brightest teaching your children? You don't attract the best and brightest with ****ty pay.

Totally concur. Some of us have been observing that public employment generally has too many administrators relative to "front-line" service providers, and that the administrators are over-paid given the service they deliver relative to the "front-line" providers as well.

The problem: it's those same administrators who typically set policy and make decisions, and so there continue to be too many overpaid administrators in the public sector workforce.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

I'm going slightly off topic here, but this reminded me of a current event here in Maine. One of the school districts in northern Maine (like 200+ miles north of Bangor) is making major cuts because the town gave a huge tax cut to the local paper mill (it threatened to shut down otherwise, which would be devastating to the town). The teachers took what was almost a 10% paycut and the administration took a 2% pay cut. Looking through the comments in the paper, there were people happy the teachers were getting their pay cut. Some even went so far as to say that teachers should not be making more than the public which pays them (in many rural towns teaching jobs are some of the highest paid) -- never mind the fact that in many small rural towns the average income is terribly low as most of the jobs are low skill and low pay. Don't you want to have the best and brightest teaching your children? You don't attract the best and brightest with ****ty pay.

Limited resources. Eventually, you have to make some choices. Sadly, there are also government regulations that I would assume are in place (at least they are in NYS) to associate specific skills with the teaching of specific subjects. I would assume the district is already to the bare minimum when it comes to staffing, hence why cutting teachers wasn't an option. Perhaps, as was described prior, it may be time to dissolve the district into another (not sure how possible that is given distances between districts; I know NNY faces a similar issue). From the looks of it, though, it looks like the existence of employment was the most important, so they used that as their basis and cut wages.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top