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2012 Presidential Election Part III: October Surprise!

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Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part III: October Surprise!

Romney AGAIN said last night that he wants to cut taxes, while at the same time not add anything to the deficit. Please explain how.

If you actually paid attention to the beginning of the debate (it was early enough so the drinking games should not have yet taken effect), you would have heard that he would be removing credits and deductions that over-necessarily complicate the system. In case you missed it, Youtube (and it's the New York Times' channel just in case you were worried you'd have to put up with a knuckledragging Faux News version) has the debate. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkrwUU_YApE (doing it this way because I don't think you want to sit on this page for 90 minutes)
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part III: October Surprise!

What's also relevant is how Obama's plan, or lack there of, is working well enough for him to keep his job. Obviously everything he has implemented isn't exactly fiscally sound either. Otherwise the numbers would be improving substantially, and not relatively flat with debt continuing to pile up.

That depends on how much you believe in the private sector. I don't. It never ceases to amaze me how good I had it in the late 90's and then we had dot-com bubble, 9/11, and the housing bubble destroy every single bit of it. And right now the private sector is collecting record profits and sitting on trillions of dollars.

I'll tell you what. If you can convince me that the private sector is just sitting on their hands right now strictly because of Obama (not Congress, not World Events, nothing else) and won't be if Mitt Romney gets elected, then I'll vote for Romney.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part III: October Surprise!

It's true that the format and the moderator gave every advantage to the prez. (I imagine it would be hard not to, when he's the prez and all). One of the more telling items was that Lehrer gave Obama an extra five minutes of talking time more than Romney. That's pretty significant, but as it turned out he used it all up umming and ahhing and looking around desperately for his teleprompter so that time was wasted anyway. :p
I have to say, part way through, I started feeling a bit sorry for Obama. Shocking performance. Not only did he not have a lot of substance to talk about, but he was even way off his game in his airy feel good talk that was such a strong point in the past. Can't help but think that the last four years has taken a significant toll on him (as it does with every President to varying extents). If it fun to see all his media supporters try to spin this as positively as they can, which isn't an easy chore.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part III: October Surprise!

If you actually paid attention to the beginning of the debate (it was early enough so the drinking games should not have yet taken effect), you would have heard that he would be removing credits and deductions that over-necessarily complicate the system. In case you missed it, Youtube (and it's the New York Times' channel just in case you were worried you'd have to put up with a knuckledragging Faux News version) has the debate. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkrwUU_YApE (doing it this way because I don't think you want to sit on this page for 90 minutes)

Those credits and deductions DO NOT cover the 5 trillion. And since he won't tell me which ones they are, I don't believe him. He's telling everyone the good stuff (I'm going to cut your taxes) and giving detail to that, but not giving detail to the bad stuff.

How is it that he can negotiate the 20% number during the campaign but he can't negotiate the credit and deduction cuts? How is it he can assume that Congress will agree to the 20% but they won't agree with the credit and deductions? It doesn't make any sense to me that he needs to keep one half secret so he can negotiate with Congress but not the other half.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part III: October Surprise!

It's true that the format and the moderator gave every advantage to the prez. (I imagine it would be hard not to, when he's the prez and all). One of the more telling items was that Lehrer gave Obama an extra five minutes of talking time more than Romney. That's pretty significant, but as it turned out he used it all up umming and ahhing and looking around desperately for his teleprompter so that time was wasted anyway. :p

You're not the only one that watches these with a chess clock, eh?
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part III: October Surprise!

That depends on how much you believe in the private sector. I don't. It never ceases to amaze me how good I had it in the late 90's and then we had dot-com bubble, 9/11, and the housing bubble destroy every single bit of it. And right now the private sector is collecting record profits and sitting on trillions of dollars.

I'll tell you what. If you can convince me that the private sector is just sitting on their hands right now strictly because of Obama (not Congress, not World Events, nothing else) and won't be if Mitt Romney gets elected, then I'll vote for Romney.

Not all of it. I lasted until 2009 before it fell apart for me. I think sitting on trillions is partially because of Obama and Congress. If Mitt really does change the tax code and make the climate better for investing then of course it will turn around. Will that actually happen is the question.

If we didn't live in such a blue state I might try harder to convince you. :p Honestly I'm not overly thrilled about it either. But until a better option comes along there really isn't anything else to do.

Having the exact same issue in the local mayor's race. Enough people don't like our mayor but he doesn't have a strong challenger who could win, so we're probably gonig to be stuck for another term of him telling us he can bring us new businesses as one after another close down.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part III: October Surprise!

That depends on how much you believe in the private sector. I don't. It never ceases to amaze me how good I had it in the late 90's and then we had dot-com bubble, 9/11, and the housing bubble destroy every single bit of it. And right now the private sector is collecting record profits and sitting on trillions of dollars.

I'll tell you what. If you can convince me that the private sector is just sitting on their hands right now strictly because of Obama (not Congress, not World Events, nothing else) and won't be if Mitt Romney gets elected, then I'll vote for Romney.

The point is not about those who are already established in the private sector. The point is to encourage those who wish to take on new opportunity in the private sector. Why did you have it so good in the 90's? It's because not only was there a new product innovation (i.e. the world wide waste-of-time), but barriers to enter, both market AND government enforced, were incredibly low, almost nonexistent. The highest tax rate was 39.6%; you could have put it at 99.6% and the same thing would have happened. So long as both the capital and new idea are there for the people that wish to create an opportunity in the private sector, it will grow. When you have barriers such as closed unions, environmentalists, and incredibly high tax burdens on small business owners (who BTW typically have gross right at the $200k/$250k cliff), then you stunt growth.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part III: October Surprise!

Not all of it. I lasted until 2009 before it fell apart for me. I think sitting on trillions is partially because of Obama and Congress. If Mitt really does change the tax code and make the climate better for investing then of course it will turn around. Will that actually happen is the question.
.

How is the climate bad for investing? The entire system is slanted to the stock market. You can't get a return anywhere else. And profits are up, way up. Along with CEO salaries, etc. The banking sector for all practical purposes bounced back. Thinking they're sitting on trillions because of Obama and Congress is not enough to convince me to vote the other way.

I also don't see how changing a tax code that's already heavily slanted towards the investment class is going to improve investment.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part III: October Surprise!

Those credits and deductions DO NOT cover the 5 trillion. And since he won't tell me which ones they are, I don't believe him. He's telling everyone the good stuff (I'm going to cut your taxes) and giving detail to that, but not giving detail to the bad stuff.

How is it that he can negotiate the 20% number during the campaign but he can't negotiate the credit and deduction cuts? How is it he can assume that Congress will agree to the 20% but they won't agree with the credit and deductions? It doesn't make any sense to me that he needs to keep one half secret so he can negotiate with Congress but not the other half.

Why did THEY not negotiate credits and deductions? Romney put it on the table, but Obama didn't take it under consideration. It takes two people to do a negotiation. Romney put the offer on the table, and Obama did not entertain it. With the 20% number, Obama put it on the table, and Romney entertained it. One important quality of a leader is the ability to listen. This is something that some of the libstains on here (I am not calling out any in particular) have difficulty with understanding.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part III: October Surprise!

Why did THEY not negotiate credits and deductions? Romney put it on the table, but Obama didn't take it under consideration. It takes two people to do a negotiation. Romney put the offer on the table, and Obama did not entertain it. With the 20% number, Obama put it on the table, and Romney entertained it. One important quality of a leader is the ability to listen. This is something that some of the libstains on here (I am not calling out any in particular) have difficulty with understanding.

Romney and Obama have nothing to negotiate. Romney's plan calls for a 20% reduction across the board in income taxes. Romney's plan calls for cuts to credits and deductions. One side is very specific. The other is not. He says he can't tell us the specifics of one side because it would prevent him from negotiating with Congress if he's elected.

I want to know why he can tell us about the 20% reduction and not have the same problem.

Obama has nothing to do with it.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part III: October Surprise!

Romney and Obama have nothing to negotiate. Romney's plan calls for a 20% reduction across the board in income taxes. Romney's plan calls for cuts to credits and deductions. One side is very specific. The other is not. He says he can't tell us the specifics of one side because it would prevent him from negotiating with Congress if he's elected.

I want to know why he can tell us about the 20% reduction and not have the same problem.

Obama has nothing to do with it.
In a certain sort of way I have to say I admire your blind devotion.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part III: October Surprise!

Romney and Obama have nothing to negotiate. Romney's plan calls for a 20% reduction across the board in income taxes. Romney's plan calls for cuts to credits and deductions. One side is very specific. The other is not. He says he can't tell us the specifics of one side because it would prevent him from negotiating with Congress if he's elected.

I want to know why he can tell us about the 20% reduction and not have the same problem.

Obama has nothing to do with it.

Perhaps he's pulling a CYA and is not trying to disenfranchise those who are receiving the specific deductions. Also, it seems that we are talking about different "20%" things, as I assumed you meant capital gains. You know how I feel about percentages as they're used as talking points, but where did Romney HIMSELF, not Obama, but Romney HIMSELF, during THIS DEBATE, say he would cut them by 20%? I gave you a link to the debate, can you give me an approximate timestamp?
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part III: October Surprise!

Perhaps he's pulling a CYA and is not trying to disenfranchise those who are receiving the specific deductions. Also, it seems that we are talking about different "20%" things, as I assumed you meant capital gains. You know how I feel about percentages as they're used as talking points, but where did Romney HIMSELF, not Obama, but Romney HIMSELF, during THIS DEBATE, say he would cut them by 20%? I gave you a link to the debate, can you give me an approximate timestamp?

In numerous speeches he's called for a 20% reduction across the board. Whether or not he said that last night is irrelevant. He also flip flopped on teachers last night. You don't get to flop around like a fish. Words matter.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part III: October Surprise!

In numerous speeches he's called for a 20% reduction across the board. Whether or not he said that last night is irrelevant. He also flip flopped on teachers last night. You don't get to flop around like a fish. Words matter.

Which ones? I'm calling you out on these outlandish statements you're making. Put up or shut up, Scooby.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part III: October Surprise!

Require a paper record of every ballot cast so that a true recount can be done in case of questions about a result (vs. just adding up a bunch of numbers from the insecure voting machines again). Do an automatic paper count on a random sample of precincts to make sure that the electronic counts jibe with the paper counts, regardless of whether an overall recount has been requested, and only determine which precincts will be sampled after the votes have been tallied (otherwise anybody interested in stealing the election knows which precincts to tamper with).

As things stand, not only do we not know if tampering is going on, in most cases we can't know because the only record of votes cast is the electronic record.

Hmm....from the evidence I've seen, most of the tampering comes with paper ballots. The easiest and most popular is marking and inserting paper ballots into the voting box before the polls even open, or to "run out" of ballots before the polls close and then "bring in more" many of which conveniently happen already to be marked. This is difficult if not impossible to prove since so many different people could have done it, and also because the people who are supposed to police the polls also are complicit (like the Democrat attorney general is going to investigate the Democrat secretary of state over an election won by the new Democrat governor? yeah, right....). A similar method involves having people enter the voting booth with several ballots in their pocket which they then pull out and slide into the ballot box along with the legitimate original. Again, nearly impossible to prove. (absence of proof is not proof of absence). If you hang out in the right circles with the right people and slip a few drinks into them and then get them reminiscing about the old days, it can be quite instructive, even if the statute of limitations has long expired.

There was a classic episode on the original Mission: Impossible TV series from the 1960s that involved the use of mechanical voting machines in a fictitious Central American country. At least the "bad guys" in this episode had enough sense to rig the election in such a way that it wouldn't be obvious from the results (in other words, you wouldn't have more votes cast than voters available from which to cast them). The machines in a few key precincts were rigged by setting the mechanical vote counter for the opposition candidate to a negative number. Our plucky IMF team snuck in and reset the machines to 0 - 0 so that the opposition vote would be registered honestly.

In today's world, it seems pretty clear that there is much less electoral fraud than there once was, and ironically, by there being less of it, people wind up being more upset by it when it does occur, because the inferential evidence stands out so much more clearly as an outlier that it used to.

Frankly, with a few glaring exceptions, I think as a practical problem the whole issue is overblown. However, as a symbolic issue, this is a great opportunity for people across the political spectrum (e.g., Rover and I have agreed !) to say that the appearance of integrity in the tabulation of votes is important if we want people agreeably to accept the outcome of a close election. Once a significant minority of people consistently start to feel they are being jobbed, they have less and less reason to accept the election result as legitimate and more and more reason to become restive. That is very unhealthy for a civil society in which we are supposed to bridge those differences so that we can work co-operatively toward the maintenance of a just society in which everyone has equality of opportunity.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part III: October Surprise!

Fraudulent voting IS disenfranchisement. The principal of democracy is one person, one vote. If fraudulent votes are included, then the legitimate votes count less than one.

So the choice is not between "ensuring that we count all legitimate votes" and "potential disenfranchisement." The current system ALREADY allows the potential for disenfranchisement, so the choice is just which type of potential disenfranchisement you prefer. The system doesn't have to "actually work" - it just needs to be better than the status quo.

+++
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part III: October Surprise!

He also flip flopped on teachers last night. You don't get to flop around like a fish. Words matter.

Saying 'I like teachers' compared with what he's actually proposed isn't a flip-flop, it's lip service. That's basically how Mitt "won" last night. He tried to say anything and everything he could to tell people what they wanted to hear, whether it could be backed up or not. Obama showed up for the debate in Denver, Mitt showed up in Fantasy Land.

The one I'm really surprised hasn't gotten more traction is champion of the common man Mitt's big zinger about how he needs to fire his accountant for not telling him about the tax breaks for all the jobs he's been shipping overseas(although technically you just get the tax break for the costs of closing down your American facilities). That's hilarious that Mitt could have actually been paying less in taxes all this time! Way to contribute to unemployment by putting that CPA out of a job, Obama.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part III: October Surprise!

So I've come to the conclusion that Facebook is pretty much the best venue for watching your friends turn into partisan morons during a major election season.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part III: October Surprise!

So I've come to the conclusion that Facebook is pretty much the best venue for watching your friends turn into partisan morons during a major election season.

It's for watching your friends turn into any number of different types of morons during any number of different seasons.
 
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