2012 NCAA Tournament: Bracketology

[UMBand]

Re: 2012 NCAA Tournament: Bracketology

$$$$ Large capacity and they technically aren't on campus. If Joe Louis Arena was in Ann Arbor, they probably wouldn't be opposed to playing there either.

19,000 tickets sold > 7,000 tickets sold

"Technically" right. Which is why it's hypocrisy. Not that hard to figure out.

And two things: 1. Again, the JLA will not host an NCAA regional. Nice red herring.

2. When was the last time the NCAA consistently sold 19,000 tickets in a regional site? Is there a reasonable expectation they could do so? Is it better to sell out smaller arenas, or massively undersell multiple larger ones? This is still a sport where a good portion of the teams play in tiny arenas that hold ~5000 (or less). Schools with larger arenas, like Ohio State, still struggle to sell them out. This is a postseason event with inflated ticket prices, requiring travel on short notice for at least 3 of the 4 schools. Just how much of a demand does the NCAA think there is? Not to mention the large numbers of fans who don't drop coin on regionals in anticipation of a FF trip.

 

[mnstate0fhockey]

"Technically" right. Which is why it's hypocrisy. Not that hard to figure out.

And two things: 1. Again, the JLA will not host an NCAA regional. Nice red herring.

2. When was the last time the NCAA consistently sold 19,000 tickets in a regional site? Is there a reasonable expectation they could do so? Is it better to sell out smaller arenas, or massively undersell multiple larger ones? This is still a sport where a good portion of the teams play in tiny arenas that hold ~5000 (or less). Schools with larger arenas, like Ohio State, still struggle to sell them out. This is a postseason event with inflated ticket prices, requiring travel on short notice for at least 3 of the 4 schools. Just how much of a demand does the NCAA think there is? Not to mention the large numbers of fans who don't drop coin on regionals in anticipation of a FF trip.

Hey, I'm not saying I agree with it. If the Gophers or UND make the regional, the X will sell out and then some. If they don't, it won't.

 

[cctopshelf]

Colorado College has hosted regionals on campus in a comparably sized building multiple times since Yost's last regional in 2003. And Colorado College isn't nearly as centrally located in the college hockey world as Ann Arbor is.

WA is not "on campus"

 

[Happy]

Re: 2012 NCAA Tournament: Bracketology

So Minnesota can host at XCel, which is considered off-campus by a mere formality? It's, what, 5 miles from campus?

If you want non-campus sites, then actually make them non-campus AND non-proximity. That's the point.

The Xcel is small ice, a big disadvantage to Minnesota, who put in large ice at Mariucci because that was in the NCAA rule book at the time. and look, stupid, there are only two large cities in Minnesota, where else is there going to be an NHL arena? You guys got most of your National Championships by offering scholarships to hockey players when no other schools did, I don't see you offering to give those up because it was unfair to the other schools.

 

[UMBand]

Re: 2012 NCAA Tournament: Bracketology

EDIT: You edited your post.

Scholarships are a red herring argument.

 

[mnstate0fhockey]

EDIT: You edited your post.

Scholarships are a red herring argument.

If true, I would disagree.

 

[Wol4ine]

Re: 2012 NCAA Tournament: Bracketology

to many of us old timers, it's funny to hear a complaining UM comment because for a long time Yost was able to host events and UM would get home ice. kudos for the ncaa to stay away from campus sites now, but it does open up the possibility of having games in front of nobody in midsized rinks.

and i've heard the joe doesn't want anything to do with events where beer sales are 86'd!!

The problem has never been Yost, it's been Michigan. Yost has hosted 3 regionals since expanding to 12 teams in '92. Since then UND has hosted once at the Ralph, MSU twice at Munn, Wisc has hosted 3 regionals (Dane x2, and Kohl), and Marriucci has held 4 regionals. So what's the beef with Yost? MSU failed to get past UMass-Lowell both or their times. Wisc failed to advance twice and missed the NCAA's the third. Minnesota did advance twice, but missed the NCAA's the other 2 times. Michigan however, advanced all 3 times they hosted at Yost. The last regional in Yost was 2003. Marriucci has had regionals in 2003,2005,2009. The Kohl had a regional in 2008, and the Ralph in 2006. That's 4 regionals on campus since the last one at Yost.

UMBand, have patience. Next year the regionals are in Ft Wayne and Toledo. I wonder, if UM doesn't go to Toledo, will you still go?

 

[UMBand]

Re: 2012 NCAA Tournament: Bracketology

If true, I would disagree.

Why? What does that have to do with anything pertaining to this discussion?

 

[IrishHockeyFan]

Re: 2012 NCAA Tournament: Bracketology

2. When was the last time the NCAA consistently sold 19,000 tickets in a regional site? Is there a reasonable expectation they could do so?

With Minnesota in the 2012 tournament I think the odds of the X not being sold out are nil.

That said, the capacity requirements for many of the regionals usually over reach the demand. Like I said, with Minnesota in the field the West regional in St. Paul will draw a packed house, but the crowds at most of the recent regionals are nowhere near 10,000 strong. And the last time Minneapolis hosted one didn't they fall far short of selling out either night, even with Minnesota-Duluth placed there?

A number of buildings that have or will host fall below 10,000 seats (Bridgeport, Green Bay, and Toledo), and recent regionals in places like St Louis, Fort Wayne and Grand Rapids have been played before more empty seats than college hockey fans. 2004 and 2007 in Grand Rapids with MSU and Notre Dame, and Fort Wayne with both Michigan and Miami have had a lot more seats empty than full. St. Louis was a disaster as far as attendance.

I do think it is ridiculous to deny Yost a regional IF the NCAA doesn't explicitly forbid on-campus arenas. We know they now state they want NHL sized ice, and I guess that's why Minnesota bid to host in St. Paul. I also don't think you can deny that the size of the ice surface makes St. Paul less of a home ice advantage than Mariucci would be, even if the crowd is overwhelmingly in support of the Gophers. But the question is sometimes answered by some people that the capacity of Yost prevents them from bidding to host there. If this isn't the rule, has Michigan even bothered to bid recently? But history shows that's a dumb rule anyway. According to the always reliable D) wikipedia, the Huntington Center in Toledo (site of the 2013 Midwest regional) seats a little over 7000 for hockey. Seems like too fine a line to me since Yost holds almost as many.

 

[UMBand]

Re: 2012 NCAA Tournament: Bracketology

Yes, Michigan bid for Yost for 2010 and 2011, and was turned down, bid again for 2012 and 2013, and got 2013 in Grand Rapids. Go figure.

 

[mnstate0fhockey]

With Minnesota in the 2012 tournament I think the odds of the X not being sold out are nil.

That said, the capacity requirements for many of the regionals usually over reach the demand. Like I said, with Minnesota in the field the West regional in St. Paul will draw a packed house, but the crowds at most of the recent regionals are nowhere near 10,000 strong. And the last time Minneapolis hosted one didn't they fall far short of selling out either night, even with Minnesota-Duluth placed there?

A number of buildings that have or will host fall below 10,000 seats (Bridgeport, Green Bay, and Toledo), and recent regionals in places like St Louis, Fort Wayne and Grand Rapids have been played before more empty seats than college hockey fans. 2004 and 2007 in Grand Rapids with MSU and Notre Dame, and Fort Wayne with both Michigan and Miami have had a lot more seats empty than full. St. Louis was a disaster as far as attendance.

I do think it is ridiculous to deny Yost a regional IF the NCAA doesn't explicitly forbid on-campus arenas. We know they now state they want NHL sized ice, and I guess that's why Minnesota bid to host in St. Paul. I also don't think you can deny that the size of the ice surface makes St. Paul less of a home ice advantage than Mariucci would be, even if the crowd is overwhelmingly in support of the Gophers. But the question is sometimes answered by some people that the capacity of Yost prevents them from bidding to host there. If this isn't the rule, has Michigan even bothered to bid recently? But history shows that's a dumb rule anyway. According to the always reliable D) wikipedia, the Huntington Center in Toledo (site of the 2013 Midwest regional) seats a little over 7000 for hockey. Seems like too fine a line to me since Yost holds almost as many.

All of this. Very well said.

 

[IrishHockeyFan]

Re: 2012 NCAA Tournament: Bracketology

UMBand, have patience. Next year the regionals are in Ft Wayne and Toledo. I wonder, if UM doesn't go to Toledo, will you still go?

The 2013 west and midwest regionals are in Toledo and Grand Rapids. I know it was posted earlier that the time of the championship game kept some fans away from the Sunday game in Fort Wayne, but the Saturday crowd was awful. "official" attendance for Saturday was 4133, and for Sunday it was 3204. I also assure you the crowd for neither day was as large as the official count. I was really surprised because I thought that the Michigan fans were really captivated by the run that team made to keep the NCAA streak alive.

 

[klbaum1077]

Re: 2012 NCAA Tournament: Bracketology

UMBand, have patience. Next year the regionals are in Ft Wayne and Toledo. I wonder, if UM doesn't go to Toledo, will you still go?[/QUOTE]

The west regional in 2013 is in Grand Rapids hosted by Michigan i believe.

 

[UMBand]

Re: 2012 NCAA Tournament: Bracketology

Oh, and little details, 2013, Brown hosts in Providence ("technically" again), UNH hosts in Manchester (that's, what, about 45 minutes from campus?), and BGSU hosts in Toledo (about a half hour, give or take a minute).

Grand Rapids is over 2 hours from Ann Arbor.

 

[mnstate0fhockey]

Oh, and little details, 2013, Brown hosts in Providence ("technically" again), UNH hosts in Manchester (that's, what, about 45 minutes from campus?), and BGSU hosts in Toledo (about a half hour, give or take a minute).

Grand Rapids is over 2 hours from Ann Arbor.

How do you think UMD feels? They just built a brand new facility with roughly the same capacity as Yost, but will likely never host. And they are further from the X than you are from Grand Rapids. In fact, there is going to be an in-state regional and they might not even be in it.

 

[klbaum1077]

Re: 2012 NCAA Tournament: Bracketology

Oh, and little details, 2013, Brown hosts in Providence ("technically" again), UNH hosts in Manchester (that's, what, about 45 minutes from campus?), and BGSU hosts in Toledo (about a half hour, give or take a minute).

Grand Rapids is over 2 hours from Ann Arbor.

I wasnt trying to be a smart ***** with my comment. Michigan will pack that building when they make it.

 

[UMBand]

Re: 2012 NCAA Tournament: Bracketology

How do you think UMD feels? They just built a brand new facility with roughly the same capacity as Yost, but will likely never host. And they are further from the X than you are from Grand Rapids. In fact, there is going to be an in-state regional and they might not even be in it.

And that's the point, too. It's a broken system.

I'd also like to (I guess?) third IrishHockeyFan's comments above. Spot on. Does the NCAA have a clue on demand for events like these? Do they care?

 

[mnstate0fhockey]

And that's the point, too. It's a broken system.

I'd also like to (I guess?) third IrishHockeyFan's comments above. Spot on. Does the NCAA have a clue on demand for events like these? Do they care?

Like I said, I can see your point. I was just explaining what the NCAA has said (or at least I've read). I think attacking regionals in Minnesota from a demand standpoint is a poor argument though. Sure, without Minnesota or North Dakota making the regional, they may not sell out all 18,000 seats. But I'm sure the same could be said of a regional in Michigan without Michigan or Michigan State.

 

[UMBand]

Re: 2012 NCAA Tournament: Bracketology

Like I said, I can see your point. I was just explaining what the NCAA has said (or at least I've read). I think attacking regionals in Minnesota from a demand standpoint is a poor argument though. Sure, without Minnesota or North Dakota making the regional, they may not sell out all 18,000 seats. But I'm sure the same could be said of a regional in Michigan without Michigan or Michigan State.

Oh, no, I wasn't attacking MN from a demand standpoint. Of course that's going to sell. I was attacking the NCAA's twisted notion that arenas of that general size (like Knickerbocker in Albany, which was like 12,000 seats too big) meet the demand for this kind of event in most cases. It's just absurd, especially when Day 2 will inevitably have 1/2-2/3 (at best) the attendance of Day 1 in this format in most scenarios.

Heck, it's a USCHO tradition the week after regionals to pore over yet another year's dismal attendance. You'd think someone at the national office would notice when they looked at the (inflated) numbers, which tends to indicate to me that they simply don't care.

 

[mnstate0fhockey]

Oh, no, I wasn't attacking MN from a demand standpoint. Of course that's going to sell. I was attacking the NCAA's twisted notion that arenas of that general size (like Knickerbocker in Albany, which was like 12,000 seats too big) meet the demand for this kind of event in most cases. It's just absurd, especially when Day 2 will inevitably have 1/2-2/3 (at best) the attendance of Day 1 in this format in most scenarios.

Heck, it's a USCHO tradition the week after regionals to pore over yet another year's dismal attendance. You'd think someone at the national office would notice when they looked at the (inflated) numbers, which tends to indicate to me that they simply don't care.

Then I think we're on the same page. Like I said, I think you have a great point. I was just explaining what the NCAA is allegedly using as it's criteria. Which we both agree is flawed