2 week hiatus between Regionals - Frozen Four

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Re: 2 week hiatus between Regionals - Frozen Four

Well, it wasn't a problem when we went. Although to be fair, these are the locations of all the Frozen Fours I have been to:
Boston
Providence
Providence
Washington, D.C.
Boston

All driving distance for me, so the only issue was getting tickets, which was no problem at all. I realize that it's not as easy for people in the Midwest/West who more often than not probably have to fly.

Little confused here. The fact that all the ones you've attended are relatively local for you (along with the fact that BU wasn't a participant in some of them) suggests to me that you decided, based on proximity, ahead of time to attend, whether BU was there or not. Is that not correct? I was referring to fans who would want to attend only if their team made the Frozen Four, and would want to attend even if it involved travel (airfare and four nights in a hotel). That is hard to arrange on short notice. Agree that getting tickets to the games isn't a problem, though I think you were very lucky for the last Providence tournament. A lot of folks, including me, got turned down.

Which leads to

The Frozen Four sells out (or is close to it) every year.

Whatever room there is for improvement, it exists in getting more eyes on tv screens and into the regionals.

Source for first statement? Because I disagree. While I grant that "or is close to it" adds some squishiness to the statement, I don't think I'd get the follow-up emails as late as the Thursday morning of the tournament announcing that seats are available, or follow-up calls when I don't attend if the Frozen Four were always sold out. There were also a lot of empty seats for every one I've attended in an NHL sized rink. A lot of the empties center ice lower bowl can probably be attributed to unused NCAA seats. But the empty seats in the balconies cannot be explained that way.

 

[chickod]

Re: 2 week hiatus between Regionals - Frozen Four

Little confused here. The fact that all the ones you've attended are relatively local for you (along with the fact that BU wasn't a participant in some of them) suggests to me that you decided, based on proximity, ahead of time to attend, whether BU was there or not. Is that not correct?

Wrong assumption. I should have put in the years.

1974 - (old) Boston Garden - BU vs Minnesota (semis) - I was in college
1978 - Providence Civic Center - BU vs Wisconsin (semis)/BU vs BC (finals) - 75 minute drive
1995 - Providence Civic Center - BU vs Maine (finals) - 75 minute drive***
2001 - Pepsi Arena (Albany, NY) - BC vs North Dakota (finals)** - 2 1/2 hour drive
2004 - TD Garden (Boston) - Maine vs Denver* - 1 hour drive
2009 - Verizon Center (Washington, DC) - BU vs Vermont (semis) / BU vs Miami (finals) - 8 hour drive (give or take)
2015 - TD Garden (Boston) - BU vs Providence (finals) - 1 hour drive

* went with a good friend who graduated from Maine (sort of last minute)
** special deal - if you went to the regionals the year before you got first choice for tickets to the FF in 2001

*** Yes, 1995 was tough. We overpaid a scalper. The others were, quite frankly, easy. Easy to find a place to stay in D.C. Easy to find a place to stay in Albany (which, being the state capitol, is a ghost town on the weekend). So no problem with tickets OR lodging. Of course, I'm from New England. I know all the options. I've been doing this for over 60 years. When you live that long you figure stuff out. I've been to 28 states and nine foreign countries. You do what you have to do...

EDIT: We also bought tickets in 1979 for Detroit, but we were shocked by Dartmouth, 5-3 in the ECAC semi-final (and lost the consolation game to Cornell)

 

[northeastern]

Re: 2 week hiatus between Regionals - Frozen Four

When NMU & BU went 3OT, it greatly affected ESPN getting into SportcCenter. It was the 3rd OT in four years and marked the beginning of the change to not go head to head with the Final Four. The disruption of the TV windows are the reason.

this / these def could have been a factor.. the sport is 2nd fiddle to, well, most everything.

 

[Sean Pickett]

Re: 2 week hiatus between Regionals - Frozen Four

Regarding the interval between the Regionals and the Frozen Four, it may seem like two weeks, but it’s not even that, because under the current system, two regionals have their finals on Sunday. And the two weeks isn’t really two weeks, because the Frozen Four actually starts on Wednesday. So if you move to a nominal one week between the Regionals and the Frozen Four, here’s the worst case, which would be for a team that travels to a Regional that has its final on Sunday:

Sunday: Regional finals
Sunday night, or Monday: travel home
Tuesday: Travel to Frozen Four city
Wednesday: Practice/skate on Frozen Four rink
Thursday: Frozen Four game

And that doesn't take into account the difficulty of making the travel arrangements, and the fans who don’t attend the Frozen Four unless their team’s there. They'd have three days to get tickets, make travel and accommodation arrangements and to get to the Frozen Four city.

But that's a different argument and NOT the reason the NCAA did it. Do you think they give a dam about how tough it is for fans to get tickets or make travel arrangements? They see 20,000 at the Final Four and say "If they can do it, the hockey people can too." (assuming they know what hockey is...)

As I recall the short 3-4 day window between the quarterfinals and the Frozen Four was indeed one of the reasons it was moved back a week.

Sean

 

[pgb-ohio]

Re: 2 week hiatus between Regionals - Frozen Four

Well, the 1990's are a while ago. But those are the years when the conflict with the hoops final four came to a head.

As is so often the case, one's vantage point affects one's opinion. Full disclosure: I attended every tournament that decade except 1991 in Albany. (travel conflict)

IMHO, sharing the weekend with hoops was a big problem. And yes, TV was at the heart of the matter.

In some years, we were asked to start our title game at 12:00 Noon to avoid going head-to-head with hoops. Now if your favorite team is in the game, you'll show up for any start time and like it. But as a neutral fan, the Noon starts gave the event a "bargain matinee" feel. Another way to look at it is that Noon is kind of a JV or preliminary game timeslot. As a general rule, sports played indoors are much more appealing later in the day. I'll concede that big time football played in domes is exempt from this comment.

Other years, our title game did go head-to-head with the hoops semi-finals. In-house, it was a distraction. Noticeable numbers of fans missed chunks of the championship game, choosing instead to watch basketball on TV in the concourses. Within their rights? Of course. But I found it pretty sickening. And if it was that way at the arenas, I have to believe the TV ratings were absolutely awful on those head-to-head occasions. You simply lose all of the casual fans.

My bottom line? Keep the current weekend. The Frozen Four (evenings) & The Masters coverage (daytime) are quite compatible. The Frozen Four & the hoops final four? Not so much.

 

[pgb-ohio]

Re: 2 week hiatus between Regionals - Frozen Four

...*** Yes, 1995 was tough. We overpaid a scalper. The others were, quite frankly, easy. Easy to find a place to stay in D.C. Easy to find a place to stay in Albany (which, being the state capitol, is a ghost town on the weekend). So no problem with tickets OR lodging. Of course, I'm from New England. I know all the options. I've been doing this for over 60 years. When you live that long you figure stuff out. I've been to 28 states and nine foreign countries. You do what you have to do...

That's a fine resume. So I certainly mean no disrespect by my next comment. But I've been to all 50 states & 14 foreign countries, yet I agree with CLS, UMD21 & Sean.

Even savvy travelers have other commitments, including work constraints. Give fans supporting specific teams 1.5 weeks notice, and they have a fighting chance to clear their calendars. Cut that to 3 days & some won't be able to make it happen. Others will indeed "do what they have to do," but experience some hardship along the way.

Just as importantly, if one needs to fly, the extra week will likely make a ton of difference on price. But you've already acknowledged that factor.

 

[chickod]

Re: 2 week hiatus between Regionals - Frozen Four

That's a fine resume. So I certainly mean no disrespect by my next comment. But I've been to all 50 states & 14 foreign countries, yet I agree with CLS, UMD21 & Sean.

Even savvy travelers have other commitments, including work constraints. Give fans supporting specific teams 1.5 weeks notice, and they have a fighting chance to clear their calendars. Cut that to 3 days & some won't be able to make it happen. Others will indeed "do what they have to do," but experience some hardship along the way.

Just as importantly, if one needs to fly, the extra week will likely make a ton of difference on price. But you've already acknowledged that factor.

I hear you. I'm not really arguing because obviously it's true that we lose when going up against basketball. My only point was that the two weeks, for me, slows down the momentum. I understand that there are a million factors. For me, here in New England, the golf courses are opening up, the weather is getting nice and people's minds start to move on to other things after a long winter. These may sound frivolous...I'm just expressing my preference. And personally, when I attend in person, there's no way I can see the Masters (only mentioned that since you brought it up). When you travel somewhere you are usually out and about, not sitting in the hotel watching TV.

I'm not going to argue that it SHOULD be the week before...just expressing my preference.

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Source for first statement? Because I disagree.

Reported attendance figures (can find them in the collegehockeystats.net box scores, if not the NCAA website or Wikipedia). Compared to capacities for the venues listed on Wikipedia.

By this method, the only times the FF has been under 97% capacity since going to 16 teams:

- 2005 semis and final (Columbus)
- 2013 semis (Pittsburgh)
- 2014 semis (Philadelphia)
- 2016 semis (Tampa)

The worst was Philly, where the semis were still at 89.7% capacity.

Maybe some quibbles over the actual capacity for the FFFF in Detroit, but that one drew over 34000 people for the semis and over 37000 for the finals. I won’t gripe about that.

The first semifinal each year probably gets a lot of latecomers, and I’m sure that the second semifinal attendance is merely listed for both games (the reported numbers for the semis are the same every year), but still. There’s no incentive for the host venue to overreport their attendance numbers, so at worst that’s an accurate measure of tickets sold.

 

[Ed Trefzger]

Re: 2 week hiatus between Regionals - Frozen Four

As I recall the short 3-4 day window between the quarterfinals and the Frozen Four was indeed one of the reasons it was moved back a week.

Sean

I remember someone asking Jerry York about this in a press conference leading up to the 2010 Frozen Four. He said that there was just too much to make happen: travel arrangements, getting students, fans, and families there, the distraction of media, very little time for practices and video, dealing with classes and academics, etc.

 

[CLS]

Re: 2 week hiatus between Regionals - Frozen Four

Reported attendance figures (can find them in the collegehockeystats.net box scores, if not the NCAA website or Wikipedia). Compared to capacities for the venues listed on Wikipedia.

By this method, the only times the FF has been under 97% capacity since going to 16 teams:

- 2005 semis and final (Columbus)
- 2013 semis (Pittsburgh)
- 2014 semis (Philadelphia)
- 2016 semis (Tampa)

The worst was Philly, where the semis were still at 89.7% capacity.

Maybe some quibbles over the actual capacity for the FFFF in Detroit, but that one drew over 34000 people for the semis and over 37000 for the finals. I won’t gripe about that.

The first semifinal each year probably gets a lot of latecomers, and I’m sure that the second semifinal attendance is merely listed for both games (the reported numbers for the semis are the same every year), but still. There’s no incentive for the host venue to overreport their attendance numbers, so at worst that’s an accurate measure of tickets sold.

Thanks.

I'm sure you're right about the semifinals, especially since they went to one ticket for both games. Don't agree that there's no incentive for the host venue to PUBLICLY overreport the attendance numbers; seems to me there's some "saving face" incentive. I'm guessing that the figures are tickets sold (or rather distributed because of the seats held for the NCAA), because the eyeball test says that many of the games, even the finals, were less than 97% capacity and Columbus was WAY less than 89.7% capacity. I guess the "butts in the seats" attendance is a measure of supply and demand and the efficiency of the secondary market.

Also agree that Detroit I is an outlier.

 

[pgb-ohio]

Re: 2 week hiatus between Regionals - Frozen Four

I hear you. I'm not really arguing because obviously it's true that we lose when going up against basketball. My only point was that the two weeks, for me, slows down the momentum.

It's a legitimate concern. And yet, the "vantage point" factor comes into play again. I thought J.D. made an insightful observation. If you're watching both the regionals and the FF on TV, having the events on consecutive weekends is going to be more appealing. But as the amount of travel increases, the extra time becomes more helpful.

I understand that there are a million factors. For me, here in New England, the golf courses are opening up, the weather is getting nice and people's minds start to move on to other things after a long winter. These may sound frivolous...I'm just expressing my preference.

No, that's not frivolous at all. This describes the climate here as well. Spring isn't unambiguously good, however. One of my favorite quips is that there are two seasons: Hockey & Yard Work. Unfortunately we're right on the threshold of Yard Work.

Regardless, you're correct about people moving on as the seasons change. Moving the FF any later would be problematic for this reason.

Also, for those who like Hockey season, the NHL Playoffs provide a life preserver in April & May. Having the FF complete before the NHL Playoffs really hit full stride is one of my preferences. I do wish the Stanley Cup would be hoisted by Memorial Day; but that's a whole 'nuther conversation.

And personally, when I attend in person, there's no way I can see the Masters (only mentioned that since you brought it up). When you travel somewhere you are usually out and about, not sitting in the hotel watching TV.

I'm not going to argue that it SHOULD be the week before...just expressing my preference.

Drew S. brought up the Masters in the second post, and appropriately so. Many are interested in both events. One regular member of our travel group has a tendency to book horrifically early Sunday morning flights in order to get home in time for full final round Masters coverage.

Agreed on not sitting around the hotel room for long periods of time while traveling. But for those that do some lunches or early dinners at sports bars, having live Masters coverage on the video screens is kind of nice. And realistically, most FF fans aren't going to be watching wall-to-wall golf coverage Thursday through Saturday, whether home or traveling. It's more a matter of keeping tabs on the Masters, at least until the weekend. And again, my main point on the Masters is that the TV coverage of the two events meshes well, so no one has to choose one event over the other.

 

[The Rube]

Re: 2 week hiatus between Regionals - Frozen Four

Travel and weather are concerns, for sure, good and bad. Denver '08, on one of the days, the weather sucked. Cold, windy, kinda snowy. Spent much time indoors (bar/restaurant). In Mpls the last two times ('11, '18) the weather was decent. In '11 tailgating was still allowed in one of the lots near the arena, and it was a blast. Last year, some of us ended up doing a pub crawl, showing some easterners around.

Point being, in some of these areas, having the F4 a week later increases the chances of better weather, so people can not only go to the games, but they can walk around the city and see stuff without being miserable. As for travel, some people are just sports nuts overall, and the week separation gives them a chance to hit up both the F4 and the Final Four.

 

[pgb-ohio]

Re: 2 week hiatus between Regionals - Frozen Four

Reported attendance figures (can find them in the collegehockeystats.net box scores, if not the NCAA website or Wikipedia). Compared to capacities for the venues listed on Wikipedia.

By this method, the only times the FF has been under 97% capacity since going to 16 teams:

- 2005 semis and final (Columbus)
- 2013 semis (Pittsburgh)
- 2014 semis (Philadelphia)
- 2016 semis (Tampa)

The worst was Philly, where the semis were still at 89.7% capacity...

...The first semifinal each year probably gets a lot of latecomers, and I’m sure that the second semifinal attendance is merely listed for both games (the reported numbers for the semis are the same every year), but still. There’s no incentive for the host venue to overreport their attendance numbers, so at worst that’s an accurate measure of tickets sold.

I've already commented at length on this on one of the companion threads. But very quickly: At BEST it's an accurate measure of tickets sold. The official numbers include some padding, if not some outright lies. The semi-finals at Philly? That night the building was two thirds empty. 89.7% goes beyond padding and lying. It's LOL funny.

CLS is correct about the "Saving Face" incentive.

 

[MTUHuskies]

Re: 2 week hiatus between Regionals - Frozen Four

the golf courses are opening up, the weather is getting nice and people's minds start to move on to other things after a long winter.

If your golf courses are already opening up, it HAS NOT been a long winter.

 

[UAHStatman]

Re: 2 week hiatus between Regionals - Frozen Four

Remember that the Women's Final Four is also this weekend. The NCAA is not going to put the Frozen Four at the same time as either the men's or women's basketball championship, nor should they. I think the current setup is fine.

 

[chrisP]

Re: 2 week hiatus between Regionals - Frozen Four

Have also heard in the past that - that they didn't want to spilt a schools fans, if their hoops & hockey both made their final fours. Even though that would really only effect the Big Ten teams maybe Providence. BC & UConn hoops teams really aren't a factor anymore, though they could make a comeback at sometime I guess. Again, don't know if its really true or not.

I guess if they really wanted to try this weekend, they could do Friday nights & Sunday afternoon, if they didn't want to conflict with hoops.

 

[LTsatch]

Re: 2 week hiatus between Regionals - Frozen Four

I hear you. I'm not really arguing because obviously it's true that we lose when going up against basketball. My only point was that the two weeks, for me, slows down the momentum. I understand that there are a million factors. For me, here in New England, the golf courses are opening up, the weather is getting nice and people's minds start to move on to other things after a long winter. These may sound frivolous...I'm just expressing my preference. And personally, when I attend in person, there's no way I can see the Masters (only mentioned that since you brought it up). When you travel somewhere you are usually out and about, not sitting in the hotel watching TV.

I'm not going to argue that it SHOULD be the week before...just expressing my preference.

College hockey season dovetails perfectly with surfcasting and trout fishing season in the northeast, I love the way it works out, you could add golf to the list as well. I prefer the delay for the FF, builds up a little tension and also gives folks time to plan. I had to travel to Tampa last week and had trouble finding a sports bar that would free up a tv from BBall to let me watch the regionals.

 

[Fishman'81]

Re: 2 week hiatus between Regionals - Frozen Four

College hockey season dovetails perfectly with surfcasting and trout fishing season in the northeast, I love the way it works out, you could add golf to the list as well. I prefer the delay for the FF, builds up a little tension and also gives folks time to plan. I had to travel to Tampa last week and had trouble finding a sports bar that would free up a tv from BBall to let me watch the regionals.

That's an issue for sure. (I can think of nothing I enjoy much more than hurling a "pencil-poppa" 75 yards into the ocean off Race Point.)

And, if you want a higher mountain to climb, try asking for college baseball at a sports-bar. Nearly impossible.

 

[chickod]

If your golf courses are already opening up, it HAS NOT been a long winter.

11:20 tee off time tomorrow morning. Last tine I played HERE (doesn’t include trip to Myrtle Beach) was September. Seven months is long to me...

 

[QUFan]

Players get up to 4 but can only leave them for immediate family.

Teams get tickets for their fans. I got good seats in 2016 through the QU box office after the regionals. UND didn’t seem to have an issue filling the place