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Business, Economics, and Taxes: Eat Cereal for Dinner

Normally Tesla would be saved by Europe and their push to EVs but Europe has basically told Tesla to get bent. This is why you don't tick off the people who buy your stuff. To be fair though Tesla was never going to grow once other companies started pushing EVs that were easier to deal with. I said that back when Elmo started coming out against Biden's bill and began his heel turn. The man knew his days were numbered and instead of pivoting he decided to try and kiss up to the Right and hope he could get a nice carve out for it. Whoopsie!

Too bad...Tesla Charging Stations are excellent. He could have shifted to that and batteries and Tesla would have been selling shovels at the Gold Rush.
 
Handyman said:
To be fair though Tesla was never going to grow once other companies started pushing EVs that were easier to deal with..
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Tesla is the groceries.com of EVs. Yes, the automotive future is EVs (just like the post dot-com world was online shopping), but those EVs are going to be made by Ford, GM, Toyota, Honda, VW, etc, just as online grocery shopping today is dominated by Kroger et al.
 
LynahFan said:
Tesla is the groceries.com of EVs. Yes, the automotive future is EVs (just like the post dot-com world was online shopping), but those EVs are going to be made by Ford, GM, Toyota, Honda, VW, etc, just as online grocery shopping today is dominated by Kroger et al.
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I think one core problem with T that few want to realize is that their current strategy is "shareholder value" on steroids. There's no way you could justify how much they "agreed" to pay elmo except that it will clearly up the value of T stock given they have to buy that back to pay him. Which is the core of cost cuts across the board, including all of the quality problems. They were in big trouble well before he decided to show his nazi roots. But the EV bandwagon kept him going.

(as for the EV future, I'm not convinced at all that it is THE future. Part of it, sure. But I can't see it being the entire market for a lot of reasons. And the important OEMs seem to see that, as well, as even Toyota is continuing development of H2.)
 
LynahFan said:
Tesla is the groceries.com of EVs. Yes, the automotive future is EVs (just like the post dot-com world was online shopping), but those EVs are going to be made by Ford, GM, Toyota, Honda, VW, etc, just as online grocery shopping today is dominated by Kroger et al.
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Yep. Tesla had a great idea, but did not have the infrastructure to make it a long term option. It would have been, at best, a collector or luxury item. I know someone with a Tesla and the crap they have to deal with when it needs repairing makes it just not attractive to the average car buyer.

Of course, the more we find out about how the company is actually run (and the BS they pull) the more you realize the whole thing is just a pyramid scheme and much like Elmo's other companies not set up for any sort of real success.
 
IMO, the H2 fuel cells are a greenwashing subsidy scam. Toyota's current management is content to sell hybrids because that is where the market is at in terms of practicality. Until there is a sufficient charging network for EVs, that is probably the right call.

My dad just traded in his ICE Hyundai Tucson for the latest hybrid version (not a PHEV), and he can now do some short local trips entirely on the battery. Since gas is least efficient/most polluting at low speed, stop-and-go city driving, the hybrid system makes a lot of sense.
 
FadeToBlack&Gold said:
IMO, the H2 fuel cells are a greenwashing subsidy scam. Toyota's current management is content to sell hybrids because that is where the market is at in terms of practicality. Until there is a sufficient charging network for EVs, that is probably the right call.

My dad just traded in his ICE Hyundai Tucson for the latest hybrid version (not a PHEV), and he can now do some short local trips entirely on the battery. Since gas is least efficient/most polluting at low speed, stop-and-go city driving, the hybrid system makes a lot of sense.
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I totally understand where you are coming from. but when I see Toyota continuing to invest in H2, I put some serious weight on that. It's also not THE future of transportation, but it sure seems that it will be a factor. Toyota is not a company that does things for fashion or trying to solely get government credits. And I also know that they are not perfect- as we had multiple cheaper and better solutions to what they put into production. But I appreciate their long term vision.

Add to that the various e-fuels that are being worked on- which requires almost no change to technology for most aspects- the number of paths for the future is pretty darned high and all of them have serious pros and cons. Batteries, e-fuel, bio-fuel, H2, etc- none of them are great but all of them have hope. Let alone that almost every battery benefit not only benefits EV's, but all forms of hybrids.
 
MichVandal said:
I totally understand where you are coming from. but when I see Toyota continuing to invest in H2, I put some serious weight on that. It's also not THE future of transportation, but it sure seems that it will be a factor. Toyota is not a company that does things for fashion or trying to solely get government credits. And I also know that they are not perfect- as we had multiple cheaper and better solutions to what they put into production. But I appreciate their long term vision.

Add to that the various e-fuels that are being worked on- which requires almost no change to technology for most aspects- the number of paths for the future is pretty darned high and all of them have serious pros and cons. Batteries, e-fuel, bio-fuel, H2, etc- none of them are great but all of them have hope. Let alone that almost every battery benefit not only benefits EV's, but all forms of hybrids.
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I hope none of this stuff needs a boost from the Feds because that boost is gone.
 
walrus said:
Toyota is doing Hydrogen for the Asian market not the US
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Doesn't really matter to me- the fact that they are sticking with it means something. And it's not as if Asia is looking the other way for GHG solutions. Especially since Toyota is so heavy into hybrids and EVs.
 
Handyman said:
Uhh Toyota donated to Trump so that is not accurate at all.
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Not what I meant- they don't get much research funding from the US like Ford and GM do. So the orange dump cutting off EV and H2 support is meaningless to their development.

I had worked on more than one DOE funded project at work.
 
No I was responding to the idea that they don't care about Trump...cause they do. They knew he was against EVs and still supported him so this "Toyota is in it to win it and is all good" idea is pure bullshit. Toyota wants a market for their non EVs and Trump gave them one so they gave him money.

And I don't think H2 is ever going to work anyways so...
 
Handyman said:
No I was responding to the idea that they don't care about Trump...cause they do. They knew he was against EVs and still supported him so this "Toyota is in it to win it and is all good" idea is pure bullshit. Toyota wants a market for their non EVs and Trump gave them one so they gave him money.

And I don't think H2 is ever going to work anyways so...
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Scooby noted that EV's were being cut at the knees, and H2 funding would surely be ending. That, relative to what Toyota is developing doesn't matter to me. If they are working onit, and nobody else is, it means something.

GM and Ford both get development money to work on specific things for DOE or NHTSA or EPA or whoever. So all of these politics means they don't get that anymore. They may turn off battery or H2 development because of it.

Toyota has, arguably, the best hybrids on the market- so cutting off financial support to those matter. I'm not really sure that I would bank on their gas products as you do. They are good, but not amazing.

And I very much understand the thought that H2 is not going to work- but it's still in play by big players. Seeing what Toyota did in the industry over the 30 years I was part of it, ignoring that is not a good idea. I am also kind of under the thought that none of the big players has fully gone in on EVs- which is rather odd. Since the auto industry is probably the most competitive on the planet (even with consolidations, there are far more companies than any other industry making different stuff)- seeing big companies hesitate is interesting.
 
If private sector jobs are going away why aren't investors panicking? Good lord the Ponzi is about to implode and they are propping it up still.
 
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