UNH 2025 Offseason: Where in the World is MS7?

[TheGrouchyCat]

Man, I would have failed that on my logic class.

Alan Turing and I would have been there to catch you, lol

 

[JB]

Oh, Buford. Love the ambition but, you know, you have the reasoning skills of a fourth grader.

Western Michigan hockey was lousy to mediocre from 1973 until 2021 when the new coach arrived. It plays in a dump (ie. "the Lawson Lunatics"). It took 50 years to get a good coach. Without a new facility, he's a goner.

New facility in downtown Kalamazoo. Private property, private funding. Western Michigan hockey is a small part of the development.

New renderings for $300M downtown arena cast spotlight on Western Michigan University

New images were released to the public on Thursday, Jan. 25.

www.mlive.com

It will be the home of the Kalamazoo Wings minor league hockey team, which is actually pretty popular in Kalamazoo. The 380,000 facility has a ton of other uses.
The facility has been envisioned for the past 22 years, according to one of the developers. The LOL suggestion that the development has anything to do with the last few years of hockey success is delusional.

This is tantamount to UNH hockey/basketball moving to Portsmouth to support a private development project wherein it shares a facility with the Manchester Monarchs with additional basketball facilities and mixed use (btw, way over your head, don't look it up) tenants. It would have little to do with winning hockey games and more to do with being one of many tenants for a private, mixed use real estate project.

BTW, you will read and quickly forget this post. You and JB have problems with reading retention.

Wait a minute. You argued that the Tsongas was built for Umass-Lowell as your example of public funding of hockey facilities for state schools. When the Tsongas was essentially the same thing as the privately funded building in Kalamazoo And now you are arguing the opposite.

Which is it?

I know not having a coherent point is a nice way to argue, "if you stand for nothing, what do you fall for?"

Still waiting on the lobbying update?

 

[Potluck]

I feel like I'm in the Monty Python bit about logic. So if she weighs less than a duck, she's a witch.

As I understand the argument now, WMU has crap facilities, but has succeeded because of a good coach. But without good facilities, it will be bad. But the good coach will enable it to get good facilities.

And because of this, we're to conclude that UNH, with a thoroughly mediocre coach, should not change coaches and try to be good with bad facilities, but must first try to get good facilities and then switch to a good coach.

Man, I would have failed that on my logic class.

I'm a bit surprised at this 'Watcher. No, you don't understand the my point.

WMU found the coaching combo 50 years after it's search began. Very nice results while playing with sub par facilities for three years now. Getting a good coach WILL NOT get a state school good facilities. It may get you nice short term results but nothing sustainable. I've said it about 20 times but.....And I've also said about 5 times that UNH should let Souza go but......Please, change coaches by all means. But anyone that believes doing so will "turn around" the program is wrong. It may improve things for a few years or perhaps the next coach will be at UNH for 20 years. But overall the program will be mediocre/lousy in the current environment without an overhaul.

I merely suggest that the WMU is far more likely to be Ferris, Bemidji and Union. I can understand how Buford (Chuck Murray) and Elwood (JB) misunderstand this stuff or forget what they have read, because they are a bit limited. You, on the other hand, are clearly smart. Therefore you are playing me. And that's just fine, btw.

 

[Potluck]

Wait a minute. You argued that the Tsongas was built for Umass-Lowell as your example of public funding of hockey facilities for state schools. When the Tsongas was essentially the same thing as the privately funded building in Kalamazoo And now you are arguing the opposite.

Which is it?

I know not having a coherent point is a nice way to argue, "if you stand for nothing, what do you fall for?"

Still waiting on the lobbying update?

Elwood, I appreciate that you want to sit at the adult table to be heard. But for goodness sakes at least listen just a bit. You simply (and as always your mistakes are simple) don't understand because you don't know the FACTS. I left a link that describes the Kalalmazoo project. It's called mixed use. I advised Buford not to attempt to understand what mixed use projects are and now I do the same for you.

Keeping it even more simple and strictly for your benefit, the Tsongas is different from the Kalamazoo project - completely. To help your memory, think of the Tsongas as an apple and the Kalamazoo as a orange. Yeah, I know they are both fruits but really think hard.

 

[NCAA watcher]

Well, then, there's really not much need to argue, if you agree Souza firing should be the first step. I keep misreading your "yes, but..." as a "why bother." Maybe its just emphasis.

As to what impact that may have on future facilities.... the easy answer is "lets see." I suspect the two are linked, though, because of DeMichiel or Dumais to come here they'd want to have some evidence of commitment. That's the bigger issue. At least they'll have an informed decision about what ails UNH systemically.

And for the sake of accuracy, WMU actually climbed up in the very tough CCHA under Bill Wilkinson from 81 to the mid-90s. several 20 win years, and a 32 win NCAA team in 86, 27 win NCAA team in 96. I'd say Culhane's mediocrity in the early 2000s was the exception, not the rule. Again, good coaches can sell bad facilities. Bad coaches can blame bad facilities.

 

[Potluck]

If I recall correctly your solution is not to aim higher, but lower (ECAC, AHA). No?

No you don't recall correctly. I appreciate your posts because they're thoughtful (even when you poke me) and make interesting points.

My argument is that UNH has to decide what it wants from hockey. The current funding and commitment is unacceptable. Just being a member of HE that is not competitive in league, which UNH is, cannot be permitted. Either fund and compete like the top 4-5 programs in a league or move to a league where that can happen. UNH is one of the worst teams in D1 hockey relative to it's league standing. It's consistently at the bottom of its conference.

If UNH doesn't intend to address the problem intelligently than switch to a more appropriate conference. An intelligent approach includes completely re-evaluating the coaching positions. Simply firing people without doing a deep dive into what went wrong with the program is lazy and stupid. Look at coaching position budgeting, scholarships, recruiting budgets and facilities and honestly assess where UNH is relative to other HE programs. Obviously, it's at the bottom.

What specifically can be done to improve things? If nothing substantial can be done, than the program no longer intends to be competitive. Cut funding and compete in a less expensive conference where it can be competitive.

Firing Souza is only the beginning and a relatively small step in addressing the large problem. If UNH is not willing to spend to have a sustainable successful hockey program in HE, move to a conference where than can be achieved.

 

[JB]

As I understand the argument now, WMU has crap facilities, but has succeeded because of a good coach. But without good facilities, it will be bad. But the good coach will enable it to get good facilities.

And because of this, we're to conclude that UNH, with a thoroughly mediocre coach, should not change coaches and try to be good with bad facilities, but must first try to get good facilities and then switch to a good coach.

Be careful you will earn yourself a nick name.

 

[JB]

Elwood, I appreciate that you want to sit at the adult table to be heard. But for goodness sakes at least listen just a bit. You simply (and as always your mistakes are simple) don't understand because you don't know the FACTS. I left a link that describes the Kalalmazoo project. It's called mixed use. I advised Buford not to attempt to understand what mixed use projects are and now I do the same for you.

Keeping it even more simple and strictly for your benefit, the Tsongas is different from the Kalamazoo project - completely. To help your memory, think of the Tsongas as an apple and the Kalamazoo as a orange. Yeah, I know they are both fruits but really think hard.

Help me out here. How was the Tsongas not built as a mixed use facility?

I mean right off the Tsongas centers old web page "The Tsongas Center at UMass Lowell is a full service, multi-purpose venue serving the Merrimack Valley region." (NOTE: this is from after UML acquired it from Lowell for $1, so after the AHL moved out of town)

I know for some "multi-purpose venue" are not the exact same words as "mixed use facility" and still in this case they are basically equivalent, no?

 

[NCAA watcher]

I suggested it in my emails to AD Rich, mostly to goad/jar her into realizing how far they have fallen. I have never really considered the arena a fatal issue, and ten years ago thought UNH was well-positioned viz. Vermont, Maine and even Lowell. Close to Boston but just enough outside to get a rural small town vibe, history, etc. Heck, you could even meet an acceptable wife
Ten years later, my other snark about being the Ferris State of the east is a bit too on the nose. Boguniecki's kid is an '09, meaning since he's been 4 UNH has been bottom three in Hockey East. Everyone UNH recruits now thinks of them as irrelevant, and sadly, they are. His dad was UNH's first real big get - and move away from Umile's neighborhood recruiting from 1989-1992 (Reading's Mike Sullivan, Kevin Thomson, Southie Rob Donovan & Scott Malone, Matignon Sean Perry, Arlington's Rob Chebator). It also marked bravado, as McCloskey chatted up reporters about all the big guys they were going after. Someone who loved to talk about the positives and upward drive. All so long ago. And all occurred before the Whit was even announced.

UNH Hockey Lands Verbal Commitments From Top Players November 5, 1992 Barry Scanlon

The University of New Hampshire has received verbal commitments from two highly-touted hockey players the Democrat has learned. Committing to attend UNH are Eric Boguniecki, a 17-year old forward from West Haven, Conn., and Dean Woodman, a 19-year old defenseman from Mississauga, Ontario. Both players are expected to sign national letter of intents to attend UNH during the NCAA early signing period Nov. 11-18. In order to be accepted into UNH, both athletes must remain in good academic standing throughout the year.
Boguniecki was heavily recruited by the University of Maine. “I thought UNH was the place for me,” Boguniecki said. “I had pretty much, UNH in mind since last year.” Boguniecki, a sturdy 5-8, 185 pound center, is a senior at Westminster, a prep school in Simsbury, Conn. He is a member of the U.S. Select 17 team which competed at the Phoenix Cup in Japan, July 29-Aug. 10, against teams from Russia, Canada and Japan. Boguniecki led the U.S. in scoring with two goals and he tied for first in points with thee during the three-game tournament. He was also a member of the U.S. Select 16 team the year before. Boguniecki said he was impressed with the school’s campus and UNH’s coaching staff headed by Dick Umile. “ I wanted to play in Hockey East and I wanted to stay in the East,” he said. “I’m looking forward (to attending UNH). I can’t wait.” Boguniecki, who shoots right, led Westminster to a berth in the Division 1 prep school finals last season. He scored 26 goals and added 39 assists for 65 points. He scored a total of 96 points his freshman and sophomore years at the Gunnery School in Connecticut before transferring to Westminster. Boguniecki is considered one of the top forward recruits in the United States.

 

[NCAA watcher]

A week later, top eastern recruit Tom Nolan joined him. UNH had a slight advantage because his sister attended, but as we've come to see, that's a negative nowadays.

Nolan, a 5-10, 175-pound center from Springfield, Mass., and Larochelle, a 6-1, 180-pound goaltender, selected UNH after visiting the campus last weekend. Nolan is considered the prize jewel of UNH’s recruiting class. A creative playmaker and scorer, the Avon Old Farms forward was among the top recruits in the country. He visited Maine, Boston College and St. Lawrence and was also being recruited by Michigan, Michigan State and Providence.

“I love the coaches,” Nolan said of the UNH staff. “The coaches were just great plus I love the campus. I want to get my degree and help the team win a national championship,” he added. “They’re striving to get better and better every day. I think they’re working toward and striving toward a national championship. I think we can do it in a couple of year.” Nolan is hoping to be an impact player. “I can’t wait to get up there,” he said. Nolan scored 29 goals and dished out 24 assists last season for Avon. As a sophomore, he scored 39 points (15 goals, 24 assists). His older sister, Amy, is a senior at UNH.

 

[NCAA watcher]

A year later, another piece was added over schools like North Dakota, as a kid could see UNH was on an upward track and wanted to be part of the excitement. Still no mention of a new rink

UNH Hockey lands a prolific scorer By Barry Scanlon December 21, 1993

One of the highest scorers in the United States Hockey League has given the University of New Hampshire a verbal commitment, the Democrat has learned. Adding talent to an already strong recruiting class is Mark Mowers, a speedy 5'11 170 pound forward currently skating for the Dubuque (Iowa) Fighting Saints. Mowers, 19, selected UNH after visiting Minnesota-Duluth, Providence, North Dakota and Bowling Green. "I guess I just felt very comfortable (at UNH)," Mowers said Monday from his Whitesboro, NY home. I felt real comfortable with the players and the coaches." "I could see myself being at the university for four years," he added. "I felt right at home. They're going to be a good team down the road and I want to be a part of it."
Mowers has led Dubuque to a 16-6-1 record. In 22 games, he has scored 29 goals and added 14 assists for 43 points to rank third in the USHL scoring race. He has scored a point in every game he has played this season, breaking the team record of 19. "I guess I'm just blossoming at the right time," Mowers said. Mowers was at Snively arena on Dec. 4 to watch UNH defeat the University of Massachusetts at Lowell 3-1. He said he was so impressed by his visit that he nearly canceled scheduled visits to Minnesota Duluth and north Dakota. "I felt like making my decision then. I could have made my decision right then," he said. He said he visited Minnesota-Duluth and North Dakota out of courtesy, to see what else was "out there" but he said his decision to accept UNH's scholarship offer was an easy one. "I've had so many sleepless nights thinking about it," he said of the recruiting process. "It's just crazy. There are just so many things going though your mind. I'm sleeping good now. I have no doubts about my decision," Mowers continued.

During the 1992-93 season, Mowers compiled 31-38-69 totals for Saginaw of the North American Junior Hockey League. He finished fourth among NAJHL's scorers in 39 games. Mowers said he was especially impressed by UNH's coaching staff and the support the community and students give the team during his visit to the Durham campus. "The atmosphere was just great," he said. "Bowling Green had a lot of fans (at the game he saw there) but it seemed the crowd (at UNH) got so much more involved in the game." Mowers was recruited by assistant coach Brian McCloskey. He said he felt comfortable around McCloskey, assistant coach Jim Tororella, and head coach Dick Umile.

 

[NCAA watcher]

And finally the new arena appears as a selling point a year later

WILDCAT HOCKEY LANDS 2 RECRUITS Barry Scanlon November 22, 1994

Christmas is weeks away, but the University of New Hampshire men’s hockey program has already received two good-sized gifts. The program has received commitments from forwards Derek Bekar of Port Coquitlam, British Columbia and Ryan Harris of Fort Wayne, Ind., two players high on UNH’s shopping list. “They showed a lot of interest even before the season started,” Bekar said of UNH. “I got to know the staff real well and they seem like a nice bunch of guys. I think they want me to come in and contribute and I think I can do it.”
Bekar, who is 6-3, 180 pounds, has 11 goals and 16 assists for 27 points in 18 games for the Powell River Paper Kings of the British Columbia Junior Hockey League. “I think, no question, that they’ve got a great college prospect,” Powell River head coach Kent Lewis said of UNH. “Brian McCloskey, their assistant coach, doesn’t miss a beat out west recruiting. Brian knows what he’s doing and what he sees in Derek reminds him I guess of UNH senior co-captain Eric Flinton.” Lewis said Bekar is a finesse player who needs to get stronger. But he said Bekar is a tremendous skater who will flourish on large ice surfaces. UNH’s new arena slated to be ready by September 1995 will feature 200 by 85 feet Olympic ice surface. “I like a lot of room,” said Bekar who was also recruited by Denver, Michigan Tech, and Boston University.

 

[JB]

No you don't recall correctly. I appreciate your posts because they're thoughtful (even when poke me) and make interesting points.

My argument is that UNH has to decide what it wants from hockey. The current funding and commitment is unacceptable. Just being a member of HE that is not competitive in league, which UNH is, cannot be permitted. Either fund and compete like the top 4-5 programs in a league or move to a league where that can happen. UNH is one of the worst teams in D1 hockey relative to it's league standing. It's consistently at the bottom of its conference.

If UNH doesn't intend to address the problem intelligently than switch to a more appropriate conference. An intelligent approach includes completely re-evaluating the coaching positions. Simply firing people without doing a deep dive into what went wrong with the program is lazy and stupid. Look at coaching position budgeting, scholarships, recruiting budgets and facilities and honestly assess where UNH is relative to other HE programs. Obviously, it's at the bottom.

What specifically can be done to improve things? If nothing substantial can be done, than the program no longet intends to be competitive. Cut funding and compete in a less expensive conference where it can be competitive.

Firing Souza is only the beginning and a relatively small step in addressing the large problem. If UNH does not want to be have a sustainable successful hockey program in HE, move to a conference where than can be achieved.

Look I think UNH needs to do a better job of funding hockey. At the same time this argument is factually incorrect.

I doubt the precision of this websites information, https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/western-michigan-university/student-life/sports/ it is also undated. Directionally it is likely correct. If you have a better data source please post it, I use this one because it is convenient.

WMU​

"In terms of financials, WMU collected $34,422,529 in revenue and paid out $34,422,529 in expenses."​

"The men’s ice hockey program at WMU made $2,170,025 in revenue and spent $2,170,025"​

UNH​

"In terms of financials, UNH collected $31,245,488 in revenue and paid out $31,245,488 in expenses."​

"The men’s ice hockey program at UNH made $2,432,281 in revenue and spent $2,432,281 in expenses."​

Your argument here then must be WMU can never be good because they spend less than UNH, less than there NCHC peers, they don't have a commitment to the facilities either. Where is WMU commitment to hockey. I mean Denver spends $4.1M on hockey, North Dakota spends $5.4M.

I am sure you would not agree with this statement because obviously WMU won their regular season, conference tournament and now is in the the National Championship game.

My argument is that WMU has to decide what it wants from hockey. The current funding and commitment is unacceptable. Just being a member of NCHC that is not competitive in league, which WMU is, cannot be permitted. Either fund and compete like the top 4-5 programs in a league or move to a league where that can happen. WMU is one of the worst teams in D1 hockey relative to it's league standing. It's consistently at the bottom of its conference.

So what is the fundamental difference between UNH and WMU?

• Facilities: I would say today +UNH
• Budget: well UNH is 10% more so +UNH
• League: probably about the same (NCHC guys say +NCHC)
• Coach? Couldn't be the coach.

 

[acs64]

You go and find UNH an Alfond family that will basically backstop the entire athletic department and all the problems will disappear. BTW, the new facilities are not a product of Ben Barr or recent hockey success. Do your homework on the history on the Alfond family/foundation, UMaine philanthrophy and UMaine athletics,

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Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

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Just telling ya how it happened dude, no idea whether UNH can replicate it. Yes Ben Barr's successes have jumped started the improvements at Alfond. Success breeds deep pockets getting emptied.

 

[Potluck]

And finally the new arena appears as a selling point a year later

WILDCAT HOCKEY LANDS 2 RECRUITS Barry Scanlon November 22, 1994

Christmas is weeks away, but the University of New Hampshire men’s hockey program has already received two good-sized gifts. The program has received commitments from forwards Derek Bekar of Port Coquitlam, British Columbia and Ryan Harris of Fort Wayne, Ind., two players high on UNH’s shopping list. “They showed a lot of interest even before the season started,” Bekar said of UNH. “I got to know the staff real well and they seem like a nice bunch of guys. I think they want me to come in and contribute and I think I can do it.”
Bekar, who is 6-3, 180 pounds, has 11 goals and 16 assists for 27 points in 18 games for the Powell River Paper Kings of the British Columbia Junior Hockey League. “I think, no question, that they’ve got a great college prospect,” Powell River head coach Kent Lewis said of UNH. “Brian McCloskey, their assistant coach, doesn’t miss a beat out west recruiting. Brian knows what he’s doing and what he sees in Derek reminds him I guess of UNH senior co-captain Eric Flinton.” Lewis said Bekar is a finesse player who needs to get stronger. But he said Bekar is a tremendous skater who will flourish on large ice surfaces. UNH’s new arena slated to be ready by September 1995 will feature 200 by 85 feet Olympic ice surface. “I like a lot of room,” said Bekar who was also recruited by Denver, Michigan Tech, and Boston University.

UNH broke ground on building the Whit in the fall of '94. Therefore, planning, funding etc.. would have occurred in '92 and '93 at a minimum. Nolan and Bogie would have known prior to signing a new arena was coming.

 

[Potluck]

Just telling ya how it happened dude, no idea whether UNH can replicate it. Yes Ben Barr's successes have jumped started the improvements at Alfond. Success breeds deep pockets getting emptied.

There's no evidence of that.

 

[NCAA watcher]

Nope. Announced June 16, 1993

 

[JB]

Got it so the world only works the way Potluck says. He knows all, sees all, understands it all better than everybody else.

With that out of the way we are back to lobbying being easy and politicians being easily influenced suckers. - I learned this from Potluck earlier, see you are edumacat'n me with your writ'n.

I ask again for the Great and Wise Potluck to give all us mortals an update on when Ayotte and Parkard (or as he likely knows them Kels and Sherm) are going to be increasing funding to UNH for hockey.

 

[Dan]

No you don't recall correctly. I appreciate your posts because they're thoughtful (even when you poke me) and make interesting points.

My argument is that UNH has to decide what it wants from hockey. The current funding and commitment is unacceptable.

Well then I suppose we simply disagree on a few things…

First, I do wholeheartedly believe that coaching is far more independent of the situation than most people believe. A good coach will win more than they lose and elevate any situation. A poor coach will struggle anywhere, and will eventually be exposed no matter the bells and whistles (see Brad Berry)…

Second, winning does beget giving which begets building. It happens all the time. You can parse every example to separate the two, but the connection is clear to me. Again, Miami Basketball was never getting an arena. A huge portion of the Miami MBB fan base insisted hockey needed to be cut to pay for a BB building. Three optimistic seasons and the first winning season in years and Miami is getting a 300 million dollar build. Like the snapping of a finger…

To that end we’ve seen UNH invest in a winning hockey program. We saw them invest in a winning football team. And a winning soccer team. If the time comes for UNH to put their money where their mouth is, I’ll be right beside you with my own pitchfork…

Third, NCAA recruits don’t think like adult NCAA fans. There’s not a hockey player in the world who’s going to walk into The Whitt and think it’s beneath them. Unless they - or their advisors - are beat over the head with that narrative and sense it from those employed at UNH. Narrative matters. Change it**

Ask an adult NCAA fan and they’ll tell you NIL is king. The WMU coach said last week on a podcast they’re not paying a penny of NIL. That kids choose Western to win and be developed and that’s what they sold them on…

Finally, nobody wants UNH to simply have it all more than me. But I can’t abide the idea that nothing gets fixed until everything gets fixed. Do what you can now. Create momentum. Someway, somehow. Work from there…

—

** Honestly, I don’t think it would even be difficult for me to spin UNH Hockey’s 2024-25 season as a huge positive and reason for optimism. I don’t really believe it but I bet I could do it easily (and recruits aren’t paying as close attention to the product as we are, so instead of complaining I’d really like to see UNH take a crack too)…

 

[Snively65]

Brian Blank makes only about $68k at UNH.