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117th Congress: DEMS IN DISARRAY!!!111!!

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Handyman said:
And if you block it you get neither. The link aint happening because Manchin and Sinema dont need it. (The fucking President can't persuade them let alone their constituents) The game is rigged and everyone seems to get it but The Progressives.

You can't beat people who are this openly vile and willing to take the heat for it: https://twitter.com/NoLieWithBTC/status/1444032835531182080



The Progressives are playing chicken with people who have no problems getting into a car accident. It is the same game they tried against Trump...when people don't have shame or care what anyone thinks they will do whatever they want and laugh when people get angry. All that happens is you look foolish and end up in a worse position later to bargain.

You don't continue playing by the same rules when the game changes. You take what you can and then fuck them later.
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Except Biden is with the Progressives on this. It's up to the Moderates to get in line, and support their president.

Why is it always "The Progressives" who are acting irresponsibly, or the ones who need to just shut up and take it? This entire process is being held up by two people, Sinema and Manchin, neither of whom are members of "The Progressives".
 
rufus said:
Except Biden is with the Progressives on this. It's up to the Moderates to get in line, and support their president.

Why is it always "The Progressives" who are acting irresponsibly, or the ones who need to just shut up and take it? This entire process is being held up by two people, Sinema and Manchin, neither of whom are members of "The Progressives".
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Until the progressives can start winning enough elections to actually hold power, then this is what we're stuck with. French and Handy have explained pretty clearly what the options are:

You take something or you get nothing. Those are the options. The progs don't have the votes to do anything else. Hell, the Dems don't have the votes to do anything else.

Win a couple more senate seats and this isn't a problem.
 
dxmnkd316 said:
Win a couple more senate seats and this isn't a problem.
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This is the key here.

"Moderate" (read: conservative) Democrats are very much like white males (for the good reason that they primarily are). They simply don't see their entitlement. They have the unconscious certainty that "serious" or "popular" or "practical" opposition to the Fascists is them, and then the Others are nice to haves but just going to have to go along. This is exactly how white males have treated women and non-whites throughout history. It is no surprise that they sacrifice those Others first thing. It's how they will always think -- if they didn't, they would not be conservative Democrats.

But we on the Left need to understand that. We aren't going to war with the army we wish we had. We have to deal with things the way they are right now. We will always have to battle the DNC and the vested interests in the primaries and, barring a sudden upwards thrust in IQ, we will typically have an electoral disadvantage, for roughly the same reason that Democrats writ large will always have to deal with systemic biases in favor of conservatives.

So be it. For this cycle we can't use our leverage because we care about the consequences for vulnerable people far more than conservative Democrats do. Take my self-interest for example. I'll be okay, no matter what happens. In terms of my personal life there's no urgency. I'll be fine. So I could very well say "you come to me," and hold my breath, and only the poor and women and POC would be hurt. I just don't do that because of the worms in my head. But I could and since majorities will always choose their self-interest that means in any staring contest the right -- the side that doesn't give a crap -- always has the advantage.

If we get to 58 Democratic Senators we can at least tell Joe and Kristin to pound sand. We will still have to fight conservative Democrats, but at least we won't be fighting a guy like Manchin who voted for Kavanaugh and favored pulling out of the Paris Accord. The more folks we have the better for the Left and the better for people in general.

I'm not saying it doesn't suck. Entitlement is always insolent and infuriating. But, take the high road, again. It saves lives.
 
Exactly. No one is saying progs shouldn't feel upset about it or that they should be happy about it. (No one worth listening to.)

Get angry and elect the leftmost candidate who can win in each race.

(Pro tip: manchin is as extreme an example as we can get. We should make sure he sits in that seat for as long as he wants it. Capito won by 40 points.)
 
dxmnkd316 said:
Until the progressives can start winning enough elections to actually hold power, then this is what we're stuck with. French and Handy have explained pretty clearly what the options are:

You take something or you get nothing. Those are the options. The progs don't have the votes to do anything else. Hell, the Dems don't have the votes to do anything else.

Win a couple more senate seats and this isn't a problem.
Click to expand...

Yes. It ticks me off these are our choices but Manchin and Velma are just too corrupt. Velma spits in the face of her voters regularly, sees her numbers tank (while Kelly and Bidens held firm) and still spit in their face more!

You can't force the hand of someone who only cares about the spotlight. To Sinema there is no such thing as bad press.
 
Kepler said:
This is the key here.

"Moderate" (read: conservative) Democrats are very much like white males (for the good reason that they primarily are). They simply don't see their entitlement. They have the unconscious certainty that "serious" or "popular" or "practical" opposition to the Fascists is them, and then the Others are nice to haves but just going to have to go along. This is exactly how white males have treated women and non-whites throughout history. It is no surprise that they sacrifice those Others first thing. It's how they will always think -- if they didn't, they would not be conservative Democrats.

But we on the Left need to understand that. We aren't going to war with the army we wish we had. We have to deal with things the way they are right now. We will always have to battle the DNC and the vested interests in the primaries and, barring a sudden upwards thrust in IQ, we will typically have an electoral disadvantage, for roughly the same reason that Democrats writ large will always have to deal with systemic biases in favor of conservatives.

So be it. For this cycle we can't use our leverage because we care about the consequences for vulnerable people far more than conservative Democrats do. Take my self-interest for example. I'll be okay, no matter what happens. In terms of my personal life there's no urgency. I'll be fine. So I could very well say "you come to me," and hold my breath, and only the poor and women and POC would be hurt. I just don't do that because of the worms in my head. But I could and since majorities will always choose their self-interest that means in any staring contest the right -- the side that doesn't give a crap -- always has the advantage.

If we get to 58 Democratic Senators we can at least tell Joe and Kristin to pound sand. We will still have to fight conservative Democrats, but at least we won't be fighting a guy like Manchin who voted for Kavanaugh and favored pulling out of the Paris Accord. The more folks we have the better for the Left and the better for people in general.

I'm not saying it doesn't suck. Entitlement is always insolent and infuriating. But, take the high road, again. It saves lives.
Click to expand...

A-fucking-men!
 
Handyman said:
Yes. It ticks me off these are our choices but Manchin and Velma are just too corrupt. Velma spits in the face of her voters regularly, sees her numbers tank (while Kelly and Bidens held firm) and still spit in their face more!

You can't force the hand of someone who only cares about the spotlight. To Sinema there is no such thing as bad press.
Click to expand...

She's banking on the cake. I don't think she cares about the Senate job. I think she cares about the job after the Senate job.
 
ScoobyDoo said:
Biden says the $3.5 trillion social policy bill is his agenda, not the agenda that @BernieSanders
or @AOC
would have pushed.
Click to expand...

This is the first bravery by a Democratic president since LBJ. Others are throwing them under the bus, as usual, but not Handsome Joe. Good for him. Maybe he's learned we either go big or go home. This piddling centrist triangulation cowardice that has plagued us all the way back before Bill to Jimmy is what has ratcheted the US to the brink of an elected Nazi state. Nobody will vote for a Democratic party that doesn't have the courage of its principles. Going to the center is the path to defeat, and our defeat is the path to American fascism. The practical and responsible primary vote is for aggressive Leftism.

Wake up, Dems. Come with me if you want to live!

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dxmnkd316 said:
(Pro tip: manchin is as extreme an example as we can get. We should make sure he sits in that seat for as long as he wants it. Capito won by 40 points.)
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Oh I quite agree. The sin isn't that Manchin doesn't vote to ban fossil fuel. The sin is we fucked up so badly we have to ask him to.
 
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