117th Congress: DEMS IN DISARRAY!!!111!!

[Deutsche Gopher Fan]

Isn’t psych soemone who has gotten super defensive when someone here presumed they know more about how Kentucky people work or think?

If not sorry, but if so…same principle here. And Tina isn’t progressive …she’s fine…she’s just…there.

 

[Kepler]

a lengthy list of sexual harassment and assault charges against them

Wow. Just wow. I used to think you honestly engaged.

 

[psych]

Wow. I remember the conversation now. I don’t remember people saying it was Fox News who ended Al Franken’s career. Gillibrand, yes, but not Franken. Are all six women who came out and said he did something to them Fox News contributors or something? I can’t say I ever read the Fox version of the story.
DGF, I’m from Minnesota. I voted for Franken in 2008. I would think regardless of party or state, allegations of sexual misconduct should be taken seriously. We all rightfully wanted Cuomo gone, especially after the investigation came back and reported he was likely guilty of the allegations leveled against him (NOT in a court of law, Hovey).
Dx, he was an incredibly effective Senator. Not arguing that point at all. One can be an effective, wonderful Senator who makes the country and world a better place, have been railroaded, as I agree he should have had his chance to clear his name in the Senate Ethics Committee investigation, and still have done some of the things he was accused of doing. Maybe one or two of those women had an agenda, but all six? Seems unlikely to only me, apparently. And to only me as well, it appears, it makes us look like hypocrites. If that suddenly labels me as someone not arguing in good faith, Kep, so be it.
Both Smith and Gillibrand are sufficiently progressive and both are on board with basically every major priority we want passed as a party.

 

[Handyman]

I think the most serious charge was that he put his hand on a woman's butt at The Fair taking a picture or that he grabbed a boob once. Nothing has been proven just allegations. I think you are vastly overblowing the situation. Putting him in the same sentence as Cuomo is a fucking travesty.

That said if he primaries Tina Smith he can fuck off and die. He quit and chose not to run again she has done nothing worthy of losing her seat. If Klobuchar wants him to replace her cause she just had a cancer scare fine. But he made his choice and while he was railroaded he could have fought it and chose not to. Too late now.

 

[SJHovey]

I think the most serious charge was that he put his hand on a woman's butt at The Fair taking a picture or that he grabbed a boob once. Nothing has been proven just allegations. I think you are vastly overblowing the situation. Putting him in the same sentence as Cuomo is a fucking travesty.

That said if he primaries Tina Smith he can fuck off and die. He quit and chose not to run again she has done nothing worthy of losing her seat. If Klobuchar wants him to replace her cause she just had a cancer scare fine. But he made his choice and while he was railroaded he could have fought it and chose not to. Too late now.

I don't think it had anything to do with what people were saying, or not saying. What sunk him was the photo.

https://www.theatlantic.com/enterta...ken-that-photo-and-trusting-the-women/545954/

 

[Kepler]

Franken does not really have a path forward as a Senator because, as you point out, MN is locked up. Amy K. is not going to bow out, she is Ambition Personified.

Al has talents that are worth more than just another idiot hairdo in the Senate. He should use them to mobilize support, and to unify the Left of the Democratic party and the Right of the Democratic party. He can be a force for good in a way they can't.

TBH, another white male is not what we need as the electoral face of the party. Franken would be much more effective, for example, going head to head on radio against the Echo Chamber. Tom Hartman speaks to the Left. Stephanie Miller speaks to, I dunno, middle aged liberal women who also watch Real Housewives and have an incipient drinking problem? Al Franken is smart enough that he could entertain long haul truckers while giving them an alternative to Hate Radio.

 

[psych]

I think the most serious charge was that he put his hand on a woman's butt at The Fair taking a picture or that he grabbed a boob once. Nothing has been proven just allegations. I think you are vastly overblowing the situation. Putting him in the same sentence as Cuomo is a fucking travesty.

That said if he primaries Tina Smith he can fuck off and die. He quit and chose not to run again she has done nothing worthy of losing her seat. If Klobuchar wants him to replace her cause she just had a cancer scare fine. But he made his choice and while he was railroaded he could have fought it and chose not to. Too late now.

Yeah, I think my point wasn’t that what Franken did compared to Cuomo was worse, since at this point it clearly wasn’t, just that we all agreed Cuomo needed to go once the investigation was completed. And, I figured the same would have been said on here of Franken if the Senate investigation had been completed. It appears that isn’t the case, but shockingly, I have been wrong before. I think of all the accusers, Tweeden’s account is the least believable, depending on a lot of stories I’ve read on the subject, in publications like Slate, the New Yorker, and Mother Jones. The picture is unacceptable, but he wasn’t actually touching her breasts, which clears the low bar people like Cuomo and Trump have set. Now, I’ll admit I wanted Cuomo gone before the investigation was complete, but I recognize I’m on my own island when it comes immediately believing accusers of sexual assault. I don’t have to be held to the court of law standard,
or even that of a completed Senate Ethics Investigation to draw my conclusions. I also don’t think that means I arrived at my conclusions via “falling for Fox News”, which I’ve literally never watched. If their reporting influences the publications I read, we’re more fucked than I thought.
I think Gillibrand recognized she fucked up when it came to Franken, by asking for the Cuomo investigation to play out first, rather than immediately calling for his resignation. It was the prudent move, and it worked out.
I appreciate your last paragraph, and I agree. I also agree with Kep’s analysis of how Franken can continue being an effective power player for the Democratic Party. He’s an excellent politician.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

It's pretty interesting how we have a complete double standard between Democrats and Republicans when it comes to sex scandals. Republicans? Fuck, get massaged, rape whoever you want. Democrats? Don't touch anybody.

 

[Handyman]

I don't think it had anything to do with what people were saying, or not saying. What sunk him was the photo.

https://www.theatlantic.com/enterta...ken-that-photo-and-trusting-the-women/545954/

The photo is literally all they have...and lest we forget she did way more sexual stuff to male celebrities on that tour than he did in that photo. (there is video of her out there much of it posted here at the time) She lied and took advantage of the #MeToo movement and Franken was honorable and stepped down because he was one of the voices defending women. Fuck her and fuck that photo which was staged anyways and he isn't even really touching her.

I may be off in my timing but I don't remember any of the accusations (certainly not that one or the one where he kissed a woman on the cheek) were from when he was in office. He was a radio host at the time. That doesn't make harassment better but he had no power over any of these people and none of them said "hey don't do that" at any point. (Tweeden was pulling the same crap...it was a comedic USO tour!) He is the perfect example of how many people have lost sight of the fact that context matters. What he did and what Cuomo did are not the same. What he did makes him kinda creepy (though pretty tame for a comedian) but hardly rates compared to most politicians. Was he wrong...if the accusations are true sure. Is he a monster because of it...no.

That said he could have done what Keith Ellison did and said "go ahead and look I will abide but what the Ethics Committee says" but he didn't trust the process and was facing pressure from losers like Gillibrand to resign. He chose the easy way which is why he has a podcast and Ellison helped put away Derek Chauvin.

 

[psych]

It's pretty interesting how we have a complete double standard between Democrats and Republicans when it comes to sex scandals. Republicans? Fuck, get massaged, rape whoever you want. Democrats? Don't touch anybody.

And by interesting, you mean completely expected and baked into the pie already?
What sucks about it is that more women aren’t turned off faster to the horrible double standard. White women continue voting in droves for people like Trump, and not just Southern ones.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

And by interesting, you mean completely expected and baked into the pie already?
What sucks about it is that more women aren’t turned off faster to the horrible double standard. White women continue voting in droves for people like Trump, and not just Southern ones.

I can't figure it. It doesn't make sense to me. The ERA Movement was 50 years ago. Yet, they're still doing what their husbands would want them to do. I have a sister like that. I don't get it.

 

[Handyman]

Yeah, I think my point wasn’t that what Franken did compared to Cuomo was worse, since at this point it clearly wasn’t, just that we all agreed Cuomo needed to go once the investigation was completed. And, I figured the same would have been said on here of Franken if the Senate investigation had been completed. It appears that isn’t the case, but shockingly, I have been wrong before. I think of all the accusers, Tweeden’s account is the least believable, depending on a lot of stories I’ve read on the subject, in publications like Slate, the New Yorker, and Mother Jones. The picture is unacceptable, but he wasn’t actually touching her breasts, which clears the low bar people like Cuomo and Trump have set. Now, I’ll admit I wanted Cuomo gone before the investigation was complete, but I recognize I’m on my own island when it comes immediately believing accusers of sexual assault. I don’t have to be held to the court of law standard,
or even that of a completed Senate Ethics Investigation to draw my conclusions. I also don’t think that means I arrived at my conclusions via “falling for Fox News”, which I’ve literally never watched. If their reporting influences the publications I read, we’re more fucked than I thought.
I think Gillibrand recognized she fucked up when it came to Franken, by asking for the Cuomo investigation to play out first, rather than immediately calling for his resignation. It was the prudent move, and it worked out.
I appreciate your last paragraph, and I agree. I also agree with Kep’s analysis of how Franken can continue being an effective power player for the Democratic Party. He’s an excellent politician.

It isnt about believing the accusers...I do as well. It is about recognizing that not all accusations are the same. Leave politics out of it because I think you believe that is clouding the issue for most of us. (it isnt around here most said he should allow an investigation or step down) Both Louie C.K. and Aziz Ansari were #MeToo'ed for their behavior. One of them was a creep who would whip his dick out and jerk off around people because he is a sad loser. The other went on a date with a fan, and even by her own account seemed to constantly be checking in to make sure things were fine and it wasn't until after the fact she told him she was uncomfortable to which he apologized. He got photoed with a #MeToo pin and she went public and he was burned to the ground for a bit. (I saw him speak about it he is still shaken up over it)

Now I believe the female comics Louie harassed and I believe the woman who went out with Aziz. I don't think what they both did is the same. Louie deserved everything he got. Personally I think he is more of a pathetic loser than he is Harvey Weinstein but he is a powerful name in the comic community so female comics absolutely would feel they need to accept his behavior. That makes him a predator. Aziz didn't deserve for Jezebel to try and destroy his career. Even if I believe every word of her account, he never forced her to do anything, never pressured her...they hooked up and she ended up not enjoying the date. (note: I know that is often the excuse used by rapists, but these are her words not his he thought they had a great time together) If that makes him a predator then I would say every man who has ever gone on a date is a predator. We have to remember there is degrees of difference.

If the Senate had done an Ethics Committee investigation and said he should be removed I doubt many would have defended Franken. People were pretty split at the time. It isn't about who he is, it is about what he might have done and when. Cuomo is Governor and is harassing staff. That is wrong on multiple levels and he can't use the "old man" excuse like say Biden can. Franken was not in office at the time and held no real sway over any of the people. Plus, what he did now would be considered harassment but then he would have just been seen as kind of a skeeve but on par with most comedians. Removal from office, especially in light of the things we know have been going on in Congress since he left, was too big a penalty for what he was accused of based on the scant evidence.

 

[Handyman]

I can't figure it. It doesn't make sense to me. The ERA Movement was 50 years ago. Yet, they're still doing what their husbands would want them to do. I have a sister like that. I don't get it.

Many of them are raised to believe that is how they are supposed to be treated. Religion doesn't help...

 

[Kepler]

I can't figure it. It doesn't make sense to me. The ERA Movement was 50 years ago. Yet, they're still doing what their husbands would want them to do. I have a sister like that. I don't get it.

For most of them it's because they were raised in a misogynistic cult.

 

[psych]

It isnt about believing the accusers...I do as well. It is about recognizing that not all accusations are the same. Leave politics out of it because I think you believe that is clouding the issue for most of us. (it isnt around here most said he should allow an investigation or step down) Both Louie C.K. and Aziz Ansari were #MeToo'ed for their behavior. One of them was a creep who would whip his dick out and jerk off around people because he is a sad loser. The other went on a date with a fan, and even by her own account seemed to constantly be checking in to make sure things were fine and it wasn't until after the fact she told him she was uncomfortable to which he apologized. He got photoed with a #MeToo pin and she went public and he was burned to the ground for a bit. (I saw him speak about it he is still shaken up over it)

Now I believe the female comics Louie harassed and I believe the woman who went out with Aziz. I don't think what they both did is the same. Louie deserved everything he got. Personally I think he is more of a pathetic loser than he is Harvey Weinstein but he is a powerful name in the comic community so female comics absolutely would feel they need to accept his behavior. That makes him a predator. Aziz didn't deserve for Jezebel to try and destroy his career. Even if I believe every word of her account, he never forced her to do anything, never pressured her...they hooked up and she ended up not enjoying the date. (note: I know that is often the excuse used by rapists, but these are her words not his he thought they had a great time together) If that makes him a predator then I would say every man who has ever gone on a date is a predator. We have to remember there is degrees of difference.

If the Senate had done an Ethics Committee investigation and said he should be removed I doubt many would have defended Franken. People were pretty split at the time. It isn't about who he is, it is about what he might have done and when. Cuomo is Governor and is harassing staff. That is wrong on multiple levels and he can't use the "old man" excuse like say Biden can. Franken was not in office at the time and held no real sway over any of the people. Plus, what he did now would be considered harassment but then he would have just been seen as kind of a skeeve but on par with most comedians. Removal from office, especially in light of the things we know have been going on in Congress since he left, was too big a penalty for what he was accused of based on the scant evidence.

I mean I completely understand the anger over Gillibrand and others asking for his resignation before Franken had a chance to defend himself via the proper channels. He could have waited around for the investigation to play out, and he didn’t. He should have, and he clearly recognizes that now, as do other Senators who voiced their regret calling for his head.
Yes, there are absolutely different levels of harassment and assault. A kiss that wasn’t invited or wanted is less egregious than rape or touching body parts and then bullying said person. I haven’t read anything about Franken doing any bullying or silencing of his accusers. Quite the opposite. He absolutely seems sincere in his explanation of what happened, and his apologies. Between a third and half the adolescents I work with have been sexually harassed, assaulted, or raped- some by their step or foster parents. I have to report that, and it’s awful.
But, some on here are going beyond what you are saying, calling for Gillibrand to be primaried, or replacing Smith with Franken. I think both things are ridiculous, and I absolutely will say as much. Franken is no Cuomo or Trump, and some of the accusations against him do seem suspect, which makes it all the more reason he should have stuck around to let the evidence come to light. But if someone wants him to return to public office, what message does that send the women who spoke up against him who aren’t named Tweeden? Sends the wrong message in my opinion, and I think people should know that.

 

[aparch]

Many of them are raised to believe that is how they are supposed to be treated. Religion doesn't help...

Was just going to say this. There's a whole evangelical subculture where women still see themselves (or are taught to believe) that they're second class to their husband's, and a happy spouse makes a happy house.

Very Stepford Wives -ish

 

[Kepler]

Was just going to say this. There's a whole evangelical subculture where women still see themselves (or are taught to believe) that they're second class to their husband's, and a happy spouse makes a happy house.

Very Stepford Wives -ish

This. Even here in a comparatively advanced part of the "New South." The death cult is ubiquitous. Millions of women have been conditioned to view themselves as gatling guns to spit out litters of tow-headed fuck trophies.

Rural Christian women are essentially farm animals. Their electoral role is to rubber stamp whichever Republican their pastor or husband or other male stand-in for the Invisible Man tells them to.

 

[Kepler]

Meanwhile, the only honest Republican.

 

[dxmnkd316]

I mean I completely understand the anger over Gillibrand and others asking for his resignation before Franken had a chance to defend himself via the proper channels. He could have waited around for the investigation to play out, and he didn’t. He should have, and he clearly recognizes that now, as do other Senators who voiced their regret calling for his head.
Yes, there are absolutely different levels of harassment and assault. A kiss that wasn’t invited or wanted is less egregious than rape or touching body parts and then bullying said person. I haven’t read anything about Franken doing any bullying or silencing of his accusers. Quite the opposite. He absolutely seems sincere in his explanation of what happened, and his apologies. Between a third and half the adolescents I work with have been sexually harassed, assaulted, or raped- some by their step or foster parents. I have to report that, and it’s awful.
But, some on here are going beyond what you are saying, calling for Gillibrand to be primaried, or replacing Smith with Franken. I think both things are ridiculous, and I absolutely will say as much. Franken is no Cuomo or Trump, and some of the accusations against him do seem suspect, which makes it all the more reason he should have stuck around to let the evidence come to light. But if someone wants him to return to public office, what message does that send the women who spoke up against him who aren’t named Tweeden? Sends the wrong message in my opinion, and I think people should know that.

Gillibrand is terrible even without the Franken aspect. She should be primaried.

 

[aparch]

This. Even here in a comparatively advanced part of the "New South." the death cult is ubiquitous. Millions of local women have been conditioned to view themselves as gatling guns to spit out litters of tow-headed fuck trophies.

Rural Christian women are essentially farm animals. Their electoral role is to rubber stamp whichever Republican their pastor or husband or other male stand-in for the Invisible Man tells them to.

It creeped me out 20 years ago when my church, very rural Michigan, started a "Men of Grace" committee that was essentially "a woman's place is pregnant and barefoot in the kitchen," as described above.

Funny thing was some of the "very religious" men certainly didn't act that way when not around their wives.

Typical "conservatives" though.



The whole region is your stereotypical blue collar democrat... but they vote R since the turn of the Millenia because of "God, Guns, and Gays." And listening to them whine about immigration when they don't even like the white people from their neighboring township is maddening.