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NHL hockey returns to the 'Peg! Maybe?

moose97

moose97

New member
I did a search and didn't see another thread just on the Phoenix Coyotes ownership situation, so... Here you go.

Personally, it's ~ 4 hours drive to downtown St. Paul or a 4 hour drive to Winnipeg from Bemidji, so call it toss-up for me. The Wild have been pretty sad, and I've got no real connection to the team, so I'd be willing to drive up and watch NHL hockey in the 'Peg or down to St. Paul. Certainly UND fans would be thrilled, as it's just 2 hours from Grand Forks to Winnipeg.

As to the ownership situation and specifically the COG (City of Glendale) and the GWI (Goldwater Institute) battling it out, I say good! I mean, even if it weren't illegal in the State Constitution of Arizona for a city to "gift" $100 million (by buying something - parking rights - it already owns) to an individual so that they can finance the purchase of a private company, I'd want someone with the means threatening to sue. That just makes no sense.

In all seriousness, if you have a spare hour and 45 minutes, you should listen to this (no video, just audio). The COG comes off pretty insane, especially the COG attorney, and records guy. He should have just brought a recording of himself saying, "ask the courts. Ask a judge.":

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/YMXyjMmGgms" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 
Re: NHL hockey returns to the 'Peg! Maybe?

If they go back, they're not going to be the Jets, so it's an epic failure regardless.
 
Re: NHL hockey returns to the 'Peg! Maybe?

bronconick said:
Because a billionaire is currently willing to subsidize the yearly losses in Winnipeg. No such person exists in Phoenix.
Click to expand...

Different arena + Canadian dollar on par or worth more than US = different result
 
Re: NHL hockey returns to the 'Peg! Maybe?

JF_Gophers said:
Hockey already failed in Winnipeg. Why are they wanting to go back?
Click to expand...

It's debatable that that NHL failed in Winnipeg. Would you say that the NHL failed in Minnesota? A place where the replacement franchise sold out it's first 409 games of its existence? The Jets moved for the same reason that most teams move - they couldn't get a new rink built with suites. That, plus in a small market in a sport with no salary cap and no revenue sharing, they couldn't compete. I know that attendance gets thrown around as a knock on the 'Peg, but they were essentially just shy of a league average club until that last season, when rumors of movement plagued the crowds:

http://www.andrewsstarspage.com/ind..._average_attendance_since_1989_90/118-2008-09

Point being, Winnipeg now has a (small, yes, but) NHL ready rink, with suites. A plan to expand to add seats. A potential owner that is one of the richest in all of Canada. And an NHL that is much more forgiving to small market teams than it was in the mid-'90's.

Plus, while there are other options (a second NHL team in Toronto, Quebec City, Kansas City, Las Vegas), each of those have many more problems than the 'Peg does (a second Toronto area franchise would have to share the Air Canada Center until their own rink is financed and built; QC has plans for a rink, but nowhere to play and no identified owner at present; KC has a beautiful new rink downtown, but no identified owner and LV has no rink and no owner). Not to mention the issues of keeping the 'Yotes in Phoenix, while losing $40 million a year in front of 11,000 fans.
 
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Re: NHL hockey returns to the 'Peg! Maybe?

You are forgetting option c) contraction.

NHL doesn't need more teams, it needs less. This is an easy way to just eliminate one team and strengthen the NHL talent pool.
 
Re: NHL hockey returns to the 'Peg! Maybe?

JF_Gophers said:
Hockey already failed in Winnipeg. Why are they wanting to go back?
Click to expand...

It failed in Denver and the Bay Area before as well, but came back and seems to be doing OK now.

Of course, it also failed in Atlanta before, and looks like it is for a 2nd time.
 
Re: NHL hockey returns to the 'Peg! Maybe?

SteveP said:
Different arena + Canadian dollar on par or worth more than US = different result
Click to expand...

The arena is too small and only had 50 luxury boxes. If they try to spend to a 2012 $62 million cap, they'll lose money yearly or outprice their fanbase. What it has going for it is that it will lose less money than Phoenix and qualify for revenue sharing for part of the losses. If the league thought Winnipeg would be a contributor in revenue sharing, they would have a team already.
 
Re: NHL hockey returns to the 'Peg! Maybe?

bronconick said:
If the league thought Winnipeg would be a contributor in revenue sharing, they would have a team already.
Click to expand...

Can't argue with this.

One other thing that can't be argued, though, is Winnipeg's appetite for NHL hockey. Canadians watch hockey at such a greater rate than their US counterparts it's sickening. An interesting, yet slanted, report:

http://www.mowatcentre.ca/pdfs/mowatResearch/31.pdf
 
Re: NHL hockey returns to the 'Peg! Maybe?

Also, because of the "Wirtz" rule (no metro over 2.5 million can ever receive revenue sharing), Phoenix would never qualify for revenue sharing, and you understand why the NHL is trying so hard. The teams that *do* receive money back from the NHL would see their slice shrink, and no one has proven that Winnipeg would increase revenue enough to balance that out. Canadian TV will pay what they pay with or without Winnipeg has been my understanding. So the NHL is hoping they can find someone else to eat losses in Phoenix as long as possible...as long as it's not them again like this year.
 
Re: NHL hockey returns to the 'Peg! Maybe?

bronconick said:
So the NHL is hoping they can find someone else to eat losses in Phoenix as long as possible...as long as it's not them again like this year.
Click to expand...

And here's where it gets tricky. The COG seems willing to throw more money at this problem than anyone would have thought. Now, if they can do it legally, the 'Yotes will stay. The problem is, everything they've tried lately is shady at best and illegal at worst. Time is running out in terms of setting the schedule for next year (last year the schedule was announced on June 22, and figure that it would be out at a similar time this year as well), and for selling tickets for next year.

Now, if you go back to the YouTube in my first post, the mayor of COG says in the last couple minutes that they have "3 or 4 days" (go to 1:45:20) to figure this out (then says she shouldn't have been so flippant to say that). Add in the problems with the alternatives (from my other post, the other relocation options), and Winnipeg really looks like the best choice right now.
 
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Re: NHL hockey returns to the 'Peg! Maybe?

I think it's been reported elsewhere that the drop dead date is around the beginning (or end) of May.

The CoG is desperate because that arena is utterly worthless without a tenant.

The entire thing could have been avoided if Scottsdale and one other suburb closer to Phoenix downtown (I think) hadn't spent so much effort trying to suck extra money out for their land for an arena. Now you'll have a dead arena in the middle of nowhere, and the other two cities have empty land that they can't sell, I believe.

The Goldwater people are flipping over into crazy too. I think they're now threatening Cactus League baseball teams with lawsuits for similar things. That'll go over well.
 
Re: NHL hockey returns to the 'Peg! Maybe?

bronconick said:
The Goldwater people are flipping over into crazy too. I think they're now threatening Cactus League baseball teams with lawsuits for similar things. That'll go over well.
Click to expand...

I highly recommend you listen to the whole meeting in that YouTube. I had it on in the background as I was doing other work. In it, GWI is asked how the $100 million for parking is different than the Cubs Mesa deal. Basically, they say that since the City of Mesa will still own the ballpark and the Cubs will rent it, it doesn't violate the gift clause that is at issue here (if you don't know, the entire issue here is that the COG currently owns the rights to parking at the rink. They are proposing buying the parking rights - which they already own - from Hulsizer for $100 million, so he can purchase the Coyotes for $170 million from the NHL - thus essentially making it a "gift" of $100 million from the COG to Hulsizer just to bail them out and keep a tenant in the Jobing.com Arena. The other problem, according to GWI, is that the parking rights don't even come close to being worth $100 million over the 10 years, as evidenced by the problems with debt shortfall at New Yankee Stadium - note that they are having a hard time making payments of $6.9 million - in New York... at a ballpark that has 81 home dates... with 40,000+ fans a game... What about $10 million a year for parking at a hockey rink that draws just 11,000 a game over 41 dates in Phoenix? :eek:).
 
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Re: NHL hockey returns to the 'Peg! Maybe?

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