Little help

[gfan]

So in looking at the game box summaries on the www.collegehocketstats website they use a number of letters to designate various shortcuts. Most of them I get -

GW game winner
HT hat trick
SH shorthanded goal
PP power play
EA extra attacker

but for the life of me I cannot figure out what they mean when they use LL associated with scoring a goal. Little help

 

[d3follower]

Re: Little help

So in looking at the game box summaries on the www.collegehocketstats website they use a number of letters to designate various shortcuts. Most of them I get -

GW game winner
HT hat trick
SH shorthanded goal
PP power play
EA extra attacker

but for the life of me I cannot figure out what they mean when they use LL associated with scoring a goal. Little help

I believe that LL stands for "last lead" (as in the final go-ahead goal)

 

[NUProf]

Re: Little help

I believe that LL stands for "last lead" (as in the final go-ahead goal)

That's correct. It the goal that gives the winning team a lead that they don't give up.

If hockey used the same scoring rules as baseball that would be the game winning goal.

 

[norm1909]

Re: Little help

I believe that LL stands for "last lead" (as in the final go-ahead goal)

I certainly could be wrong, as I do not know for certain, but I have always thought LL was "Lost Lead" (or tie if 0-0), used to determine the goalie who gets the loss. Though "Last Lead"/"Lasting Lead" could be it.

 

[gfan]

Re: Little help

Thanks much....sometimes the LL is also the GW but sometimes it is not as the other team can come back to tie but never lead.....

 

[NUProf]

Re: Little help

I certainly could be wrong, as I do not know for certain, but I have always thought LL was "Lost Lead" (or tie if 0-0), used to determine the goalie who gets the loss. Though "Last Lead"/"Lasting Lead" could be it.

The LL goal always goes from a tie to the lead. If you were ahead and a goal scores to tie it, you've lost the lead, but not gotten an LL. In baseball, the losing pitcher is the one who gives up the LL Run. Isn't the loser in hockey the Goalie who gives up the GWG? That I'm not so sure of.

Thanks much....sometimes the LL is also the GW but sometimes it is not as the other team can come back to tie but never lead.....

If the other team comes back to tie, that goal can't be the LL. Example a team goes up 1-0, then 2-0, 3-0,4-0, Other team scores, two goals 4-1, 4-2. LL is the first goal, GW is the third goal. The other team never lead, so the first goal was the LL, but the GWG is the n+1 st goal if your opponents score n goals

 

[norm1909]

Re: Little help

The LL goal always goes from a tie to the lead. If you were ahead and a goal scores to tie it, you've lost the lead, but not gotten an LL. In baseball, the losing pitcher is the one who gives up the LL Run. Isn't the loser in hockey the Goalie who gives up the GWG? That I'm not so sure of...

True - The LL goal always goes from a tie to the lead, at any tie, NOT just 0-0.

 

[one_to7]

Re: Little help

The LL goal always goes from a tie to the lead. If you were ahead and a goal scores to tie it, you've lost the lead, but not gotten an LL. In baseball, the losing pitcher is the one who gives up the LL Run. Isn't the loser in hockey the Goalie who gives up the GWG? That I'm not so sure of.

You're correct about the GWG, whoever gives it up is the losing goalie.

That means if someone comes in with their team down 4-0, gives up a goal right away and then doesn't give up another goal they'll still get the loss if their team comes back and scores 4 goals.

 

[norm1909]

Re: Little help

You're correct about the GWG, whoever gives it up is the losing goalie.

That means if someone comes in with their team down 4-0, gives up a goal right away and then doesn't give up another goal they'll still get the loss if their team comes back and scores 4 goals.

So if that goalie is pulled at the 4-4 tie, and the incoming goalie gives up the tie breaker, the initial goalie gets the loss and the incoming goalie gets a "no contest"?

 

[d3follower]

Re: Little help

So if that goalie is pulled at the 4-4 tie, and the incoming goalie gives up the tie breaker, the initial goalie gets the loss and the incoming goalie gets a "no contest"?

no - the goalie who gives up the GWG gets the loss

 

[one_to7]

Re: Little help

So if that goalie is pulled at the 4-4 tie, and the incoming goalie gives up the tie breaker, the initial goalie gets the loss and the incoming goalie gets a "no contest"?

Nope, because the 2nd goalie gave up the game winning goal.

no - the goalie who gives up the GWG gets the loss

Ding!

 

[norm1909]

Re: Little help

Nope, because the 2nd goalie gave up the game winning goal.


Ding!

Premise: That means if someone comes in with their team down 4-0, gives up a goal right away and then doesn't give up another goal they'll still get the loss if their team comes back and scores 4 goals.

If the incoming goalie, comes in down 4-0, and his team scores 4 goals and he doesn't give up the game winning goal, why would the first goalie get the loss, since the game ended as a 4-4 tie?

 

[NUProf]

Re: Little help

Premise: That means if someone comes in with their team down 4-0, gives up a goal right away and then doesn't give up another goal they'll still get the loss if their team comes back and scores 4 goals.

If the incoming goalie, comes in down 4-0, and his team scores 4 goals and he doesn't give up the game winning goal, why would the first goalie get the loss, since the game ended as a 4-4 tie?

The goalies who are in the game when the game tieing goal is scored get the credit/blame for the tie on their record. In a game with a decision, the goalie in the game for the winnners when the GWG scores gets the win (as long as he plays at least 30 minutes) and the goalie in the game for the losers get the loss. It's the same rule as baseball, except that the game winning run is baseball is the LL goal in hockey.

 

[Dyce]

Re: Little help

Kinda far-fetched question, but as long as we're on the subject: in a game where no goaltender on the winning team logs 30 minutes (a three-goalie affair, for example), does GWG or minutes played take precedence?

 

[norm1909]

Re: Little help

The goalies who are in the game when the game tieing goal is scored get the credit/blame for the tie on their record. In a game with a decision, the goalie in the game for the winnners when the GWG scores gets the win (as long as he plays at least 30 minutes) and the goalie in the game for the losers get the loss. It's the same rule as baseball, except that the game winning run is baseball is the LL goal in hockey.

So if the goalie is pulled with a tie because it is potentially the last game of the season and their team needs to win to continue, yet an empty net goal is scored ending their season, then no one gets the loss?

 

[CARDS_rule_the_Burgh]

Re: Little help

So if the goalie is pulled with a tie because it is potentially the last game of the season and their team needs to win to continue, yet an empty net goal is scored ending their season, then no one gets the loss?

That's the way I've always seen it scored.

Or, take this scenario: a team is trailing 3-2 with 1:00 left in the game, they pull their goaltender. At 19:15, they allow an empty-net goal, making the score 4-2. They pull their goaltender again, and this time score with the extra man, and the final score is 4-3. That empty-netter is now the GWG. If my understanding of this is correct, no goaltender would take the L in this scenario.

 

[joecct]

Re: Little help

It is the goalie of record that gets the W/L/T. And Prof I do not recall a 30 minute minimum. IIRC, Redlight got hurt before the 1/2 way point in a game this season vs. Framingham and still got the W, but nobody got individual credit for the donut.

 

[NUProf]

Re: Little help

I seem to recall that the rule was like baseball - the starter had to play half the game, just like a starting pitcher has to complete 5 innings to get the win. If the starter doesn't make it, the official scorer makes the call. It may be that unlike baseball he can give the win to the starter anyway. Of course, you know more about it than I do. I do seem to remember a situation a few years back in which an NU goalie came out before 10 minutes into the second and the second goalie got the win, even though the GWG was scored in the first period. I could be all wet, too.

 

[hockeyfan77]

Re: Little help

A goalie doesn't have to play 30 minutes to get a win: he can play 30 seconds and still get a W...He just has to be tending net when the GWG is scored....I 99.9 percent sure (unless they changed the rule in the last two years) even if a goalie is pulled and it's an empty netter and then his team scores while he is pulled the 2nd time that that goalie still gets the loss....That's what the 06-08 NCAA rule book says...Can't find the newer one at the moment....

 

[d3follower]

Re: Little help

A goalie doesn't have to play 30 minutes to get a win: he can play 30 seconds and still get a W...He just has to be tending net when the GWG is scored....I 99.9 percent sure (unless they changed the rule in the last two years) even if a goalie is pulled and it's an empty netter and then his team scores while he is pulled the 2nd time that that goalie still gets the loss....That's what the 06-08 NCAA rule book says...Can't find the newer one at the moment....

Here's a real-life example from this past season that's not directly on point but provides some guidance as to how EN goals that turn out t be the GWG are scored -- Bowdoin v St. A:

http://collegehockeystats.net/1011/boxes/mbowsta1.f18

The winning goal is the empty netter (the 6th goal), which made the score 6-4. St. A came back to score a 5th goal after the EN goal, making the final score 6-5 and the EN goal the GWG. The starting goalie was credited with the loss even though he was not in net for the GWG (the empty netter).