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How will current NCAA turmoil affect Division 3 sports?

D

dhammond

New member
The future of the NCAA is at stake. The NCAA is facing 2 major lawsuits seeking compensation for athletes (House v. NCAA and Hubbard v. NCAA). These lawsuits are seeking billions in damages for compensation past athletes feel they should be entitled to.
From everything I read about past court decisions toward the NCAA and about the legal situations involved in these cases, it appears that if these cases go to trial, the NCAA is very likely to lose these lawsuits. Even if they settle these cases before trial, it could cost the NCAA a few hundred million dollars.
There are a growing number of people covering this that feel the very existence of the NCAA is in doubt.
My concern is how all this is going to affect funding for the Division 3 national championship tournaments in the future, or even the very future of Division 3 sports if the NCAA ceases to exist.
Does anyone have some insight or opinions on this? I am really concerned for college sports right now.
 
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The NLRB just ruled that Dartmouth's Men's basketball team are university employees, and eligible to join the SEIU. The rationale was that they receive compensation from the school. Not sure that this will translate to D3.
 
elbojpb said:
The NLRB just ruled that Dartmouth's Men's basketball team are university employees, and eligible to join the SEIU. The rationale was that they receive compensation from the school. Not sure that this will translate to D3.
Click to expand...

I was curious about that. Does that mean that everyone that received "scholarship" aid from a school would be considered an employee now? I'm think of a school like Clarkson that costs tens of thousands to attend every year, but most students pay much less than that. Are they all employees now? Will the Dartmouth basketball team receive W-2s from the school (like all other employees do) and now have to file tax returns to show their income? I'm not sure the judge thought this ruling out. But he/she does get his/her name in the paper.
 
spwood said:
I was curious about that. Does that mean that everyone that received "scholarship" aid from a school would be considered an employee now? I'm think of a school like Clarkson that costs tens of thousands to attend every year, but most students pay much less than that. Are they all employees now? Will the Dartmouth basketball team receive W-2s from the school (like all other employees do) and now have to file tax returns to show their income? I'm not sure the judge thought this ruling out. But he/she does get his/her name in the paper.
Click to expand...

It can get worst than that. (Talk about not thinking the ruling through.) If this ruling trickles down to all D3 sports, than you can kiss goodbye all athletics at D3 schools. There is no way any D3 school will be able to afford to run an athletics program under these circumstances. As Fishman always rightly reminds us, no D3 program (in any sport) is making a profit.

And on a broader scale, just about all D2 and even D1 athletic programs (at the very least, the non-revenue sports) will be wiped out. And how's this for an interesting thought -- does this ruling mean Title IX is dead when it comes to sports? If athletes are considered employees, it then has nothing to do with "opportunities" as Title IX is worded. It becomes no different than trying to build a diverse workforce, but there are no rules for that (outside of affirmative action, which has been greatly diluted by recent court rulings). No school is under legal pressure to make sure their teacher gender ratio is 50/50, only self imposed pressure. Ergo, they may not be under any legal pressure to make sure their athlete employment gender ratio is 50/50. Ergo, Title IX is dead in college athletics. And potentially with it, so is the growth of women sports.

[Obviously, this ruling is going to be appealed. But, it's going to have to watched very closely.]
 
Whether or not a sports program generates any revenue for the university seems to be irrelevant in this ruling!? From the text of the ruling: "the profitability of any given business does not affect the employee status of the individuals who perform work for that business"

A huge difference between the overturned Northwestern decision and this, has been the introduction of NIL compensation. Also, the litmus test in this case was “Because Dartmouth has the right to control the work performed by the Dartmouth men’s basketball team, and the players perform that work in exchange for compensation, I find that the petitioned-for basketball players are employees within the meaning of the [National Labor Relations] Act"

This is likely to get very messy, although in D3, the number of student-athletes receiving NIL compensation is likely very small.
 
elbojpb said:
This is likely to get very messy, although in D3, the number of student-athletes receiving NIL compensation is likely very small.
Click to expand...


What DIII players currently get is irrelevant. If DI collapses under this ruling the entire NCAA (DIII included) collapses with it as the DI basketball media rights fees pays for everything funded by the NCAA.

Whether a replacement org can rise up after said collapse is another question
 
Even if the NCAA survives all this, my biggest concern is all of the outstanding lawsuits and how much it will cost the NCAA in damages or settlements. One of the first things they may pull is funding for the Division 3 national championship tournaments.
 
dhammond said:
Even if the NCAA survives all this, my biggest concern is all of the outstanding lawsuits and how much it will cost the NCAA in damages or settlements.
Click to expand...
From my limited understanding of the issue, it is Dartmouth that is appealing the ruling, not the NCAA. It appears on the surface that the schools will be on the hook for the implications of this ruling. Although it wouldn't be the worst thing to happen if the NCAA folded completely. A group of chimpanzees could do a better job of running (ruining) college athletics.
 
elbojpb said:
From my limited understanding of the issue, it is Dartmouth that is appealing the ruling, not the NCAA. It appears on the surface that the schools will be on the hook for the implications of this ruling. Although it wouldn't be the worst thing to happen if the NCAA folded completely. A group of chimpanzees could do a better job of running (ruining) college athletics.
Click to expand...

I’m not talking about the Dartmouth ruling. I’m talking about House v NCAA, Hubbard v NCAA, and other lawsuits.
 
elbojpb said:
Whether or not a sports program generates any revenue for the university seems to be irrelevant in this ruling!? From the text of the ruling: "the profitability of any given business does not affect the employee status of the individuals who perform work for that business"

A huge difference between the overturned Northwestern decision and this, has been the introduction of NIL compensation. Also, the litmus test in this case was “Because Dartmouth has the right to control the work performed by the Dartmouth men’s basketball team, and the players perform that work in exchange for compensation, I find that the petitioned-for basketball players are employees within the meaning of the [National Labor Relations] Act"

This is likely to get very messy, although in D3, the number of student-athletes receiving NIL compensation is likely very small.
Click to expand...

This. All of this.
 
elbojpb said:
From my limited understanding of the issue, it is Dartmouth that is appealing the ruling, not the NCAA. It appears on the surface that the schools will be on the hook for the implications of this ruling. Although it wouldn't be the worst thing to happen if the NCAA folded completely. A group of chimpanzees could do a better job of running (ruining) college athletics.
Click to expand...

And where's the money going to come from? Be careful what you wish for. It will be worse than the NAIA.
 
Scott_TG said:
What DIII players currently get is irrelevant. If DI collapses under this ruling the entire NCAA (DIII included) collapses with it as the DI basketball media rights fees pays for everything funded by the NCAA.

Whether a replacement org can rise up after said collapse is another question
Click to expand...

And finally, this.
 
Russell Jaslow said:
It can get worst than that. (Talk about not thinking the ruling through.) If this ruling trickles down to all D3 sports, than you can kiss goodbye all athletics at D3 schools. There is no way any D3 school will be able to afford to run an athletics program under these circumstances. As Fishman always rightly reminds us, no D3 program (in any sport) is making a profit.

And on a broader scale, just about all D2 and even D1 athletic programs (at the very least, the non-revenue sports) will be wiped out. And how's this for an interesting thought -- does this ruling mean Title IX is dead when it comes to sports? If athletes are considered employees, it then has nothing to do with "opportunities" as Title IX is worded. It becomes no different than trying to build a diverse workforce, but there are no rules for that (outside of affirmative action, which has been greatly diluted by recent court rulings). No school is under legal pressure to make sure their teacher gender ratio is 50/50, only self imposed pressure. Ergo, they may not be under any legal pressure to make sure their athlete employment gender ratio is 50/50. Ergo, Title IX is dead in college athletics. And potentially with it, so is the growth of women sports.

[Obviously, this ruling is going to be appealed. But, it's going to have to watched very closely.]
Click to expand...

Not a lawyer myself, but the ones I've listened to seem to think that this will be in appellate courts for a couple of years.

If the suit succeeds, it will certainly devastate the status quo for the bulk of college athletics from top to bottom. (Opinions will vary as to whether that's a good thing or not.)

But, as far as D-3 hockey is concerned, wouldn't fielding club teams be essentially the same thing as we see now, as in a loss-leader?
 
Today’s court ruling pretty much strips away the NCAA’s control. Might be the beginning of the end for the NCAA. What that means for D3, I guess we’ll find out.
 
dhammond said:
Today’s court ruling pretty much strips away the NCAA’s control. Might be the beginning of the end for the NCAA. What that means for D3, I guess we’ll find out.
Click to expand...

I don't think that it'll have a huge impact on D-3 in the short term. No money to be made there, anyway.
 
The problem with trying to predict if and how the NCAA collapses and what rises out of it is that we don't know what will be allowed until any court rulings are made and legislation in response to it.

The way things seem headed is major football and basketball programs want to be separate so that the pie that is the media rights revenue associated with those sports is only split among those schools and their players. Depending how things play out the other sports on those campuses may not get to share in it, let alone two other divisions worth of schools.

There's at least an alternative structure already for college hockey in the ACHA. DII and DIII hockey programs can pivot to that org which could use the new interest in potential members to expand but how will college hockey programs operate on campuses if the athletic departments collapse around them?

The NCAA as we know it seems doomed and its very uncertain what comes next. There are entire industries built on the current NCAA structure and the implosion will be devastating.
 
Fishman'81 said:
(SNIP)

But, as far as D-3 hockey is concerned, wouldn't fielding club teams be essentially the same thing as we see now, as in a loss-leader?
Click to expand...

As a side note, the ACHA/AAU sponsorship of ice hockey is larger than NCAA D1/D3 ice hockey.

Some are free to the students, but the vast majority are pay to play.
 
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