Ghost towns in China.

[unh_hockey]

I shared this only amongst friends, but its interesting enough that I wanted to share with USCHO. First, the documentary link:

http://www.sbs.com.au/dateline/story/watch/id/601007/n/China-s-Ghost-Cities

Thoughts: China's government values "GDP" growth over all else, even at the behest of a similar issue here which is the majority being unable to afford what is being produced. Due to their strict credit standards ( or whatever you call them), there won't be a huge mortgage implosion because of this since no one who is earning 10k annually will even get looked at if they wanted one of these condos.

The guy near the end of the video nailed it perfectly. A polarization amongst an already highly financially stratified people will lead to bad things. At the end of the day, its sad to see so many honest hard working people living in utter crap while you have a government looking to protect their bottom line while not helping these people out...which they clearly can to some degree based on their stimulus.

Very eye opening to me. We see some of this mirrored in the United States and hope to whatever god is out there that this never actually happens.

 

[bostonewe]

Re: Ghost towns in China.

I shared this only amongst friends, but its interesting enough that I wanted to share with USCHO. First, the documentary link:

http://www.sbs.com.au/dateline/story/watch/id/601007/n/China-s-Ghost-Cities

Thoughts: China's government values "GDP" growth over all else, even at the behest of a similar issue here which is the majority being unable to afford what is being produced. Due to their strict credit standards ( or whatever you call them), there won't be a huge mortgage implosion because of this since no one who is earning 10k annually will even get looked at if they wanted one of these condos.

The guy near the end of the video nailed it perfectly. A polarization amongst an already highly financially stratified people will lead to bad things. At the end of the day, its sad to see so many honest hard working people living in utter crap while you have a government looking to protect their bottom line while not helping these people out...which they clearly can to some degree based on their stimulus.

Very eye opening to me. We see some of this mirrored in the United States and hope to whatever god is out there that this never actually happens.

That's insane. I can't believe the statistics (I mean, I can, it's China, but it's unreal). Should be interesting (and frightening) to watch over the next few years if things continue.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Ghost towns in China.

Very good investigative journalism. Thank you very much for posting it.

 

[Zudnic]

Re: Ghost towns in China.

There was a big article on this recently in, I think, BusinessWeek. Pretty amazing stuff.

Ireland is also littered with failed developments, there was a nice (lengthy) piece on it in Vanity Fair recently.
http://www.vanityfair.com/business/features/2011/03/michael-lewis-ireland-201103

 

[ScottM]

Re: Ghost towns in China.

China has a number of issues to face in the future related to its economic boom. Its countryside is largely missing the benefits of the boom, yet sees the higher costs, pollution, economic dislocation of its younger people, etc. At some point, its economy will no longer be able support its growth. The Chinese have a potential problem trying to tamp down property bubbles, inflating costs of food and consumer goods and maintaining an export-based economy. All of which have become interwoven with the global economy. Factor in a restless Muslim population in the western regions, and amongst various ethnic minorities, and the Bejing leadership is probably starting to lose some sleep over their growth.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Ghost towns in China.

Factor in a restless Muslim population in the western regions, and amongst various ethnic minorities

Though the western part of China has the population density of Wyoming.

 

[OvahInDovah]

Re: Ghost towns in China.

China has a number of issues to face in the future related to its economic boom. Its countryside is largely missing the benefits of the boom, yet sees the higher costs, pollution, economic dislocation of its younger people, etc. At some point, its economy will no longer be able support its growth. The Chinese have a potential problem trying to tamp down property bubbles, inflating costs of food and consumer goods and maintaining an export-based economy. All of which have become interwoven with the global economy. Factor in a restless Muslim population in the western regions, and amongst various ethnic minorities, and the Bejing leadership is probably starting to lose some sleep over their growth.

I read a book - Lot on Planet China - that covered a lot of these topics. It was a great read; definitely on the lighter side, but a good read anyhow.

 

[Hopkinja]

Re: Ghost towns in China.

This is the endless cycle that China always goes through. Money from outside the country flows into the coastal cities, but does not make it to anyplace more than 200 miles from the ocean. This causes a great conflict between the rural provinces and the monied cities. When the disparity gets too great, there's a revolution. And this sort of economic mis-management is only hastening it.

One of these cycles caused the downfall of the imperial system in the early 20th century. The last one was in the 1940's with Mao and company overthrowing the Guomindang. They're due for another.

 

[Patman]

Re: Ghost towns in China.

Though the western part of China has the population density of Wyoming.

people will fight over it... power, control, pride, etc.

Referncing Zudnic's post... I don't know if that was the piece by Michael Lewis... but the things that were written in the article about houses just makes you scratch your head... nobody envisions that people will live in them or pay for them... but those things never made sense to me.... yet somehow people manage to shovel all kinds of things into these systems.

In the end it goes back to man's ability to delude themselves. China will undoubtedly shoot themselves in the ***... the great thing about democratic systems is that they are more open to exposing society contradictions... now, I didn't say perfect... better... when you deal with a force maintained oligarchy you have to adhere to various contradictions that dare not get stated.... and the more you have to enforce these contradictions, misallocations, lies, etc... the worse it will get. As bad as things have been for us, I don't doubt they could be much worse for China. The problem for us is that they are the people who will be buying our debt in the future... but that's it... longer term, China getting knocked back a peg is a positive thing for us.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Ghost towns in China.

This is the endless cycle that China always goes through. Money from outside the country flows into the coastal cities, but does not make it to anyplace more than 200 miles from the ocean. This causes a great conflict between the rural provinces and the monied cities. When the disparity gets too great, there's a revolution. And this sort of economic mis-management is only hastening it.

One of these cycles caused the downfall of the imperial system in the early 20th century. The last one was in the 1940's with Mao and company overthrowing the Guomindang. They're due for another.

True not just of China but virtually every country that "benefitted" from European colonialism. The river and seaport peripheries are Christian and European and wealthy, the mountain or desert or jungle interiors are Islamic or Pantheist and native and poor. The class and cultural disparities increase until one side slaughters the other.

Have a middle class or die. Hope the West is paying attention.

 

[unh_hockey]

Re: Ghost towns in China.

True not just of China but virtually every country that "benefitted" from European colonialism. The river and seaport peripheries are Christian and European and wealthy, the mountain or desert or jungle interiors are Islamic or Pantheist and native and poor. The class and cultural disparities increase until one side slaughters the other.

Have a middle class or die. Hope the West is paying attention.

Revolution isn't a cocktail party. it is a violent insurrection where one class destroys the ruling class. - Mao

The problem is the middle class whom ultimately supports the economy are not only being ignored, but they are barely able to sustain themselves in substandard living. Yet, the government has the audacity and short slightness to continue with these projects and prove to all that they truly are disconnected from the majority commonwealth.

Parallels are emerging here in the USA, which is why I thought this piece was telling.

Look where our middle class is heading. Since the 80s, wages have remained stagnant, the costs of living have gone up, and the % of total wealth going to the top 1% fast approaches what it did before the 1930s. I read a piece which chronicled the middle class adapting ( read bandied solution) by accruing more work hours, accruing debt, and finally placing bets on housing. Obviously the housing market is regressing to normalized inflation adjusted levels, and we all know what is happening to the middle class whos underwater.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Ghost towns in China.

There was a big article on this recently in, I think, BusinessWeek. Pretty amazing stuff.

Ireland is also littered with failed developments, there was a nice (lengthy) piece on it in Vanity Fair recently.

13% of US homes are vacant.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Ghost towns in China.

Parallels are emerging here in the USA, which is why I thought this piece was telling.

Look where our middle class is heading. Since the 80s, wages have remained stagnant, the costs of living have gone up, and the % of total wealth going to the top 1% fast approaches what it did before the 1930s. I read a piece which chronicled the middle class adapting ( read bandied solution) by accruing more work hours, accruing debt, and finally placing bets on housing. Obviously the housing market is regressing to normalized inflation adjusted levels, and we all know what is happening to the middle class whos underwater.

This was inevitable with the co-optation of government by wealthy interests beginning in the 80's and lasting through today (and abetted by not only the GOP but by certain corrupt parts of the Dems as well). The Gini index increases, a tiny transnational clique makes a killing and has more than enough income to game the political system and muddy the waters enough that no broad-based coalition for a more egalitarian order can emerge. The Forum exemplifies this every day, with many of the very people who recognize all is not well continuing to extoll the virtues of the very ideology that has caused the problem.

The choice is continually preventing the erosion of the middle class by taxing the wealthy and giving people on the bottom a ladder to climb up or, eventually, the disruption of social cohesion and violence. Vast numbers do not go into immiseration quietly no matter how much Fox News, American Idol and Miller Lite you dull their wits with.

 

[unh_hockey]

Re: Ghost towns in China.

The choice is continually preventing the erosion of the middle class by taxing the wealthy and giving people on the bottom a ladder to climb up or, eventually, the disruption of social cohesion and violence. Vast numbers do not go into immiseration quietly no matter how much Fox News, American Idol and Miller Lite you dull their wits with.

well said. I wish I could articulate as well as you, alas we are given only what we are given.

To echo your post a little, what gets me is the media focus on the wrong issues ( I wonder why that is), when things like quant. easing 2 and maybe 3 are on its way, and things like POMOs go by unnoticed. Yet somehow, abortion spending cuts make the news and that costs tax payers a fraction of a cent. QE2 + the war are over a trillion. But as you said, we are too distracted by the jersey shore cast and American idol to care that our tax dollars are essentially being pumped backed into the financial system, and in some cases giving them risk free profit.

The take away here is that the Chinese government in this case seems just as disconnected from its people as ours appears to be. I guess I could go on and on about the transgressions our government employs against the commonwealth, but that would be a better subject for a book, not a post on a college hockey forum.

with that said, go bruins

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Ghost towns in China.

True not just of China but virtually every country that "benefitted" from European colonialism. The river and seaport peripheries are Christian and European and wealthy, the mountain or desert or jungle interiors are Islamic or Pantheist and native and poor. The class and cultural disparities increase until one side slaughters the other.

Have a middle class or die. Hope the West is paying attention.

America chooses Death.