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  • #16
    Re: Average Men's Attendance

    Originally posted by KaMiGo View Post
    I don't know where the specific article is, but here is the chart with the data. He compiled data for all of the major UW sports. You'll have to select "Men's Hockey" from the drop-down menu.
    Thanks. I've updated my spreadsheet with the scanned information for Wisconsin. Unfortunately it only goes back ten sesaons (and the Minnesota article only mentioned the past three seasons).

    Sean
    Women's Hockey East Champions 2015, 2014, 2013, 2012, 2010
    Men's NCAA Champions 2009, 1995, 1978, 1972, 1971

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Sean Pickett View Post
      While not all schools report actual attendance, I'm pretty sure that many do. The problem is identifying which ones report tickets sold or distributed and then obtaining accurate information. It seems it is possible with some effort for public schools, but not for private schools.

      As for Minnesota, it seems that the difference between tickets distributed and scanned has widened considerably since the formation of the B1G hockey conference. I'm going to adjust Minnesota's attendance numbers to reflect those in the article for the past three seasons.

      I believe the issue goes back much further than the beginning of this century. The Boston Celtics had a very long reported sellout attendance streak in the 1980s and 1990s and I recall the last several years of that streak had many games with reported sellout attendance that had many empty seats.

      As for the cost benefits of attending sporting events today vs watching on TV or streaming platforms, the Copa America Centenario is a perfect example. I was interested in attending the 3 games at Gillette Stadium, but once I saw the prices I passed. In the end I only watched one of the 3 games on TV, as I only have a limited interest in South American teams. And if you watched the games on TV you would have seen tens of thousands of empty seats at almost every stadium for every game. Some articles and blogs have reported attendance problems, but if you look closer the problem has more to do with the stadium sizes and not actual attendance. Total attendance to date is almost 1.25 million, an average of over 44,500 per game (with 3 games to go). Last year total attendance was 655,902 (25,227 per game) and in 2007 total attendance was 1,050,230 (40,393 per game). However, the largest stadium used for either of those holds just 52,000, while the smallest stadium used this year holds slightly over 60,000. In today's world large venues and either TV or streaming of most sports events has changed the dynamics for attendance. It used to be demand outweighed a limited supply of tickets, but now the supply of tickets outweighs a limited demand and I think the days of regularly sold out sporting events is gone.

      Sean
      I think tv's are the biggest difference. They are so big and the picture so clear that there isn't the need to go to the rink there was say 15 years ago. As fewer people go the atmosphere isn't a good which encourages more people not to go. To some degree it is sort of a vicious cycle. I can't speak for other teams, but as far as Maine goes fans have been treated like absolute rubbish which is another contributing factor.

      I think in time we will look back and the last however many years will have been the high water mark for sports. There are too many other things for people to do and I think a lot of people in the industry have gone for the quick buck over something more sustainable. Youth sports are an unmitigated disaster right now which I'm sure will turn off a lot of future sports fans.
      Originally posted by BobbyBrady
      Crosby probably wouldn't even be on BC's top two lines next year

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      • #18
        Re: Average Men's Attendance

        Originally posted by Drew S. View Post
        I think tv's are the biggest difference. They are so big and the picture so clear that there isn't the need to go to the rink there was say 15 years ago. As fewer people go the atmosphere isn't a good which encourages more people not to go. To some degree it is sort of a vicious cycle. I can't speak for other teams, but as far as Maine goes fans have been treated like absolute rubbish which is another contributing factor.

        I think in time we will look back and the last however many years will have been the high water mark for sports. There are too many other things for people to do and I think a lot of people in the industry have gone for the quick buck over something more sustainable. Youth sports are an unmitigated disaster right now which I'm sure will turn off a lot of future sports fans.
        VR is the future of sports viewing for those that don't mind losing sight of everything else.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Bonin21 View Post
          VR is the future of sports viewing for those that don't mind losing sight of everything else.
          I was actually going to include something about that in my post. It will be very interesting to see how that plays out. I'm not super high tech but I would think that within five years or so here will be a way you can watch the game from home and it is like you are in the arena.
          Originally posted by BobbyBrady
          Crosby probably wouldn't even be on BC's top two lines next year

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          • #20
            Re: Average Men's Attendance

            Originally posted by Drew S. View Post
            I was actually going to include something about that in my post. It will be very interesting to see how that plays out. I'm not super high tech but I would think that within five years or so here will be a way you can watch the game from home and it is like you are in the arena.
            NextVR is already doing it and it's incredible for boxing and soccer. Hockey is tough because the puck is so hard to see in a VR setting where resolution is spread wider.

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            • #21
              Re: Average Men's Attendance

              If you wanted to cheat for MSU, you could put 100% capacity for '86-'03. Problem is I can't find capacities for those years, and they were well over capacity in some of them. For instance, the record season attendance average was 6722 for '86-87, apparently with less home games as the season total attendance record is still from the second season of Munn in 76.
              Go Green! Go White! Go State!

              1966, 1986, 2007

              Go Tigers, Go Packers, Go Red Wings, Go Pistons

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              • #22
                Re: Average Men's Attendance

                Originally posted by Bonin21 View Post
                NextVR is already doing it and it's incredible for boxing and soccer. Hockey is tough because the puck is so hard to see in a VR setting where resolution is spread wider.
                When Japan bid on the 2022 World Cup part of the bid was a plan to develop technology enabling it to provide a live telecast of every game in holographic 3D. The idea was to broadcast the games onto the playing fields of about 400 stadiums around the world so fans who couldn't go to Japan could attend the games locally and watch them as if they were there. However, the issue of attendance in the originating venue could still be a problem for the reasons already mentioned, if not for the World Cup then for other events that might want to use the same technology.

                I suppose taking it to the extreme you could do away with stadiums/arenas with seating altogether and create a holographic stadium/arena full of fans around the playing surface to give the players the experience of playing in front of a packed stadium/arena every game.

                Sean
                Women's Hockey East Champions 2015, 2014, 2013, 2012, 2010
                Men's NCAA Champions 2009, 1995, 1978, 1972, 1971

                BU Hockey Games
                BU Hockey highlights and extras
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                I need a kidney; looking for a donor

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                • #23
                  Re: Average Men's Attendance

                  Originally posted by 5mn_Major View Post
                  ...Its a different world than the 80s including 100s of TV channels, PC usage, the internet, apps, cheap travel, meet up groups for singles. Sometimes I think its very encouraging the kinds of ratings we see come through.
                  Add to all of the above the video game culture and the pre-occupation with posting stuff on social media and then counting "Likes", both of which, IMO, have contributed to what looks to me like an increasing ambivalence toward spectator sports among Millenials, in general, and GenZ, in particular. It's a brave new world out there for sports marketers.
                  "Through the years, we ever will acclaim........"

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                  • #24
                    Re: Average Men's Attendance

                    With it being the holiday break I thought I would update my Men's Home Attendance spreadsheet to include all games this season through 12/18. As a caveat this season's numbers are based on reported attendance. I used scanned tickets for both Minnesota (2013-14 through 2015-16) and Wisconsin (2007-08 through 2015-16) so both appear to have huge attendance gains that are likely smaller.

                    Assuming both do have overall attendance gains this season, that means only 25 teams have seen an attendance increase through the first half of the season. American International and Sacred Heart see the biggest increases, although both are are still at the bottom in average attendance. Their respective moves to the MassMutual Center and Webster Bank Center are showing early signs of success at the gate. It remains to be seen what the long term results will be. Likewise, Holy Cross having 2 games at the DCU Center boosted their average attendance.

                    Lake Superior and Alaska-Anchorage both have seen solid attendance increases, with LSSU at its highest average since 2002-03 and UAA almost at their average for 2014-15. Colgate's new rink appears to have helped attendance as well, as they are their highest average since 2003-04. Both RIT and Mercyhurst are currently at new peak averages, but it is to be seen if they hold through the rest of the season. Maine is also showing a nice increase, which is actually slightly better once the 2 'home' games at Portland are removed from the data.

                    On the negative side, 35 teams have seen their average attendance drop. Alaska has seen the worst drop, over 1,100 per games, a staggering 41% drop from last season and is currently at an all-time low. It would appear that the talk the Alaska schools being combined and one losing their hockey team has negatively affected attendance in Fairbanks. Arizona State is also having attendance issues, as their average is down 32%, over 650 per game, despite having 5 games at Gila River Arena this season against NCAA opponents vs just 2 last season. New Hampshire continues to lose fans, currently down over 1,000 per games and at the lowest average since the Whittemore Center opened. And in Connecticut the excitement of Hockey East appears to have faded as attendance is down over 1,100 per game. In the B1G both Michigan State (down almost 1,100/game) and Ohio State (down almost 1,000/games) are having attendance issues and Notre Dame (down over 900/game) fans seems to be waiting for next season. Nebraska-Omaha's new rink is only averaging 71% or so capacity, as their average attendance is down almost 1,300 per game.

                    I added NCAA totals for 2001-02 through this season and the overall average was pretty stable from 2001-02 through 2013-14. However it has declined every season for the past five and is currently down 290 per game from 2011-12. That may not seem like much, but that includes 2 new programs, Penn State and Arizona State, not playing in 2011-12 and Connecticut upgrading and moving to Hockey East.

                    Sean
                    Women's Hockey East Champions 2015, 2014, 2013, 2012, 2010
                    Men's NCAA Champions 2009, 1995, 1978, 1972, 1971

                    BU Hockey Games
                    BU Hockey highlights and extras
                    NCAA Hockey Financials
                    Women's Division I Longest Hockey Games
                    I need a kidney; looking for a donor

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Average Men's Attendance

                      Just from an eye test point of view. I attended the First Desert classic last year and the attendance figures were wildly over what was actually there. Not only that but in a number of the ASU games, the attendance figure is missing from the box score entirely. So you have to wonder how they are counting and why.
                      Second, it strikes me as ironic about the NCHC, because one of the reasons they used in the rationale as to why they split off was that the attendance was starting to drop off for games with the lower teams. Now we are down the line a bit more and of course that was a red herring and the attendance dropped anyway. In other words, if you want to believe something, you can find reasons to believe it, true or not.
                      MTU: Three time NCAA champions.

                      It never get's easier, you just go faster. -Greg Lemond

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                      • #26
                        Re: Average Men's Attendance

                        Sean —

                        Part of Alaska's drop is that they had to play Mankato at the 1200-seat Patty Ice Center due to booking issues with the Carlson Center. The bigger concern is not drawing games with UAA.

                        What would be interesting — and I might could spare some time to do it — is to correlate attendance with:

                        1. Current team winning percentage
                        2. Current home team winning percentage
                        3. Prior year team winning percentage
                        4. Prior year home team winning percentage
                        5. Quality of opponent

                        UAH has terrible home attendance now because 1) we haven't had a winning season since 2005-06 and 2) we're lights-out on the road (6-0-1-1) and crap at home (1-0-1-6). UAH had a senior class that had never won a D-I home game until their senior year: https://uahhockey.com/blog/2014/11/1...n-a-long-time/.

                        I've often heard that team attendance lags team performance — somehow momentum holds.

                        GFM
                        Geof F. Morris
                        UAH BSE MAE 2002
                        UAHHockey.com

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                        • #27
                          Re: Average Men's Attendance

                          Originally posted by manurespreader View Post
                          Just from an eye test point of view. I attended the First Desert classic last year and the attendance figures were wildly over what was actually there. Not only that but in a number of the ASU games, the attendance figure is missing from the box score entirely. So you have to wonder how they are counting and why.
                          Second, it strikes me as ironic about the NCHC, because one of the reasons they used in the rationale as to why they split off was that the attendance was starting to drop off for games with the lower teams. Now we are down the line a bit more and of course that was a red herring and the attendance dropped anyway. In other words, if you want to believe something, you can find reasons to believe it, true or not.
                          Thanks for your comments manurespreader. I looked at the boxes on USCHO for all 9 ASU home games and they all have an attendance figure listed, so however they are counting, this season's average is at least an accurate average. It will be interesting to see what this season's reported Desert Hockey Classic attendance figures are compared to last season's figures.

                          As for what figures are reported by various schools, I have the sense that most people who have posted about attendance think they are the total number of tickets distributed (and for Minnesota and Wisconsin that has been proven true). Over on the women's board it one poster even suggested that some of their attendance figures are straight out made up. But as long as each school is consistent in how they report their figures from season to season then attendance trends of time should be reflective of actual changes.

                          Since you mentioned NCHC attendance I decided to modify my spreadsheet so the NCAA Totals are now just Totals that can be subtotaled by selecting a league and/or schools. However, you will have to filter the underlying data on the Totals and Games sheets to see the subtotaled averages reflected on the Average sheet.

                          With the second half of the season still to play, and most of those league games, I expect the attendance figures to improve for a number of teams.

                          Sean
                          Women's Hockey East Champions 2015, 2014, 2013, 2012, 2010
                          Men's NCAA Champions 2009, 1995, 1978, 1972, 1971

                          BU Hockey Games
                          BU Hockey highlights and extras
                          NCAA Hockey Financials
                          Women's Division I Longest Hockey Games
                          I need a kidney; looking for a donor

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Average Men's Attendance

                            Originally posted by Sean Pickett View Post
                            As for what figures are reported by various schools, I have the sense that most people who have posted about attendance think they are the total number of tickets distributed (and for Minnesota and Wisconsin that has been proven true). Over on the women's board it one poster even suggested that some of their attendance figures are straight out made up.
                            Regarding the part of your post I emphasized this goes beyond women's sports. My cousin has been a newspaper sports reporter/journalist for 2 decades. At a Ball State men's basketball game he overheard an SID discussing with a student working in the department what attendance figure to report for a game with a particularly small crowd. The decision was made to literally make it up, so the boxscore failed to represent what was probably a crowd of between 1000-1500 (as little as 10% full). The SID said something along the lines of "oh, just say there were 3000 and something."

                            I think some organizations are reporting figures that are truly tickets sold, but the ones that struggle with attendance often make it up.

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                            • #29
                              Re: Average Men's Attendance

                              Originally posted by gfmorris View Post
                              Sean —

                              Part of Alaska's drop is that they had to play Mankato at the 1200-seat Patty Ice Center due to booking issues with the Carlson Center. The bigger concern is not drawing games with UAA.

                              What would be interesting — and I might could spare some time to do it — is to correlate attendance with:

                              1. Current team winning percentage
                              2. Current home team winning percentage
                              3. Prior year team winning percentage
                              4. Prior year home team winning percentage
                              5. Quality of opponent

                              UAH has terrible home attendance now because 1) we haven't had a winning season since 2005-06 and 2) we're lights-out on the road (6-0-1-1) and crap at home (1-0-1-6). UAH had a senior class that had never won a D-I home game until their senior year: https://uahhockey.com/blog/2014/11/1...n-a-long-time/.

                              I've often heard that team attendance lags team performance — somehow momentum holds.

                              GFM
                              Greg,

                              The official attendance for the two Minnesota State games were 714 and 698, both well below the rink's 1,200 capacity. If both had been at capacity or the Patty Ice Center was off campus I would remove them from the team's attendance figures, as I have done for other teams impacted by such considerations (and did for Maine's 2 games in Portland this season). But I don't see either reason being valid in this case.

                              As for correlating attendance to performance and especially home performance, I agree that there is one and there are numerous papers/articles on the subject, even some on college hockey:

                              Baseball
                              What Do Your Fans Want
                              Fair-Weather Fans

                              NHL
                              Winning Percentage and Attendance in the NHL
                              Fan Attendance: Does Winning Actually Bring in the Crowds?
                              Sensitivity of Attendance to Wins

                              College Hockey
                              The Impact of Winning on Filling a College Hockey Arena
                              Determinants of college hockey attendance

                              "Determinants of college hockey attendance" looks at other factors besides winning, including ticket prices and the impact of an NHL team within 75 miles. Unfortunately, he didn't try to factor in the impact of having other college teams within a short distance of each other (i.e. Boston).

                              Sean
                              Women's Hockey East Champions 2015, 2014, 2013, 2012, 2010
                              Men's NCAA Champions 2009, 1995, 1978, 1972, 1971

                              BU Hockey Games
                              BU Hockey highlights and extras
                              NCAA Hockey Financials
                              Women's Division I Longest Hockey Games
                              I need a kidney; looking for a donor

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                              • #30
                                Re: Average Men's Attendance

                                Nice! Thanks for the links. I'd seen the baseball stuff in the past. I have my own project that correlates UAH attendance to when Alabama and/or Auburn football games are opposite of our start times. It's pretty startling — after football is over, Saturday is our better attendance night by about 10-15% from my last recollection.

                                GFM
                                Geof F. Morris
                                UAH BSE MAE 2002
                                UAHHockey.com

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