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2011 USA World Junior Evaulation Camp Roster

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  • #16
    Re: 2011 USA World Junior Evaulation Camp Roster

    Well put hokydad. Well put.

    We've seen it before and we'll continue to see it. Then again, politics are everywhere in sports now so I guess it all works out...?
    Originally posted by Greg Ambrose on 3/7/2010
    The fact that you BC fans revel in the superiority of your team in an admittedly weak league leads me to believe you will be more sorely disappointed when the end comes than we will.

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    • #17
      Re: 2011 USA World Junior Evaulation Camp Roster

      What will happen first?

      USA Hockey will drop the National Development Program

      OR

      Every hockey playing nation will copy the USA Program

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      • #18
        Re: 2011 USA World Junior Evaulation Camp Roster

        Nothing against the kids who are going, outside those who had off ice issues and shouldnt receive the honor.

        If it is perceived as an honor, which it is. If it is supposed to be earned and a reward for being a great player, who worked hard and is on of the supposed elite, it should be just that.

        Not a big announcement with little scouting and not bringing in the best players.

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        • #19
          Re: 2011 USA World Junior Evaulation Camp Roster

          While I generally agree with the sentiments on the ntdp, USA hockey definitely made a move in the right direction with adding a December camp for this tournament. Last year, four kids who did not make the summer camp made the team (Walker, Lashoff, Zucker, Ramage) and a number of other guys made the December camp (Faulk, Merrill, Nicastro, Brown, Wohlberg) but didn't make it to Saskatoon. If guys like Krug, Grimaldi or Yogan have strong beginnings to their seasons, they could get the call in December.
          "Oh No! Not Maine! Then where would we get our deodorant that doesn't work?!"-Stephen Colbert

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          • #20
            Re: 2011 USA World Junior Evaulation Camp Roster

            Originally posted by dggoddard View Post
            What will happen first?

            USA Hockey will drop the National Development Program

            OR

            Every hockey playing nation will copy the USA Program
            The other countries, like Canada simply spread the money out to the top junior rpograms. Many more touches, much wider development. Why are dev program kids ok to go to college but a kid playing for London Knights cant?

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            • #21
              Re: 2011 USA World Junior Evaulation Camp Roster

              Originally posted by RockTheWhit View Post
              While I generally agree with the sentiments on the ntdp, USA hockey definitely made a move in the right direction with adding a December camp for this tournament. Last year, four kids who did not make the summer camp made the team (Walker, Lashoff, Zucker, Ramage) and a number of other guys made the December camp (Faulk, Merrill, Nicastro, Brown, Wohlberg) but didn't make it to Saskatoon. If guys like Krug, Grimaldi or Yogan have strong beginnings to their seasons, they could get the call in December.
              Agreed. The point though is they should not have to wait for the political kids to go and fail. The only way to lose a natl dev program race is if the jockey falls off the horse. But than again if you do get in trouble 3 or 4 times, and than do something again and get suspended, they will pick you up and put you back on the horse
              Last edited by Hokydad; 06-18-2010, 11:39 AM.

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              • #22
                Re: 2011 USA World Junior Evaulation Camp Roster

                For many years, USA Hockey had a model where the money went to 'grass roots' - and the WJC results were a pair of bronze medals at best. We weren't even in the elite program conversation globally, becuase the elite players weren't getting better by playing lesser players.

                Since that the UNDTP has been installed, the results have been far better, including a couple of WJC gold medals and a program that is now a threat to win every time out.

                The value in his program is our top players get better by playing against top players. We don't have the depth of Canada, and likely never will, so spreading the money out probably won't work.

                People always say "USA is political". Sure it is. So is Hockey Canada. So is every other elite sports entity in the world. The best players overcome politics.

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                • #23
                  Re: 2011 USA World Junior Evaulation Camp Roster

                  Well said.
                  The Terrier Hockey Fan Blog

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                  • #24
                    Re: 2011 USA World Junior Evaulation Camp Roster

                    Originally posted by Puck Swami View Post
                    The best players overcome politics.
                    Lots of players don't get a chance to show that they're the best, especially if they're born on New Year's Eve.

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outliers_(book)#Synopsis

                    The book begins with Gladwell's research on why a disproportionate number of elite Canadian hockey players are born in the first few months of the calendar year. The answer, he points out, is that since youth hockey leagues determine eligibility by calendar year, children born on January 1 play in the same league as those born on December 31 in the same year. Because adolescents born earlier in the year are bigger and maturer than their younger competitors, they are often identified as better athletes, leading to extra coaching and a higher likelihood of being selected for elite hockey leagues. This phenomenon in which "the rich get richer and the poor get poorer" is dubbed "accumulative advantage" by Gladwell

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                    • #25
                      Re: 2011 USA World Junior Evaulation Camp Roster

                      Originally posted by Puck Swami View Post
                      For many years, USA Hockey had a model where the money went to 'grass roots' - and the WJC results were a pair of bronze medals at best. We weren't even in the elite program conversation globally, becuase the elite players weren't getting better by playing lesser players.

                      Since that the UNDTP has been installed, the results have been far better, including a couple of WJC gold medals and a program that is now a threat to win every time out.

                      The value in his program is our top players get better by playing against top players. We don't have the depth of Canada, and likely never will, so spreading the money out probably won't work.

                      People always say "USA is political". Sure it is. So is Hockey Canada. So is every other elite sports entity in the world. The best players overcome politics.
                      They play in the USHL. They do maybe 10-15 tops intl games, if those handfull of games is the differnce, USa HOCKEY IS IN DEEP sh**

                      Those players from the 2004 team would be the same player today without a bunch of 8 year olds spending 4 million for their training.

                      If the program is so good, they shouldnt have to rig the selection process and bs the public with their invites.

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                      • #26
                        Re: 2011 USA World Junior Evaulation Camp Roster

                        Originally posted by Hokydad View Post
                        They play in the USHL. They do maybe 10-15 tops intl games, if those handfull of games is the differnce, USa HOCKEY IS IN DEEP sh**
                        It's not the USHL games that make them better as much as playing each other in practice every day where they are being pushed by other good players (not inferior ones), the international experience they get and the dedicated weight training. They also create a sense familiarity with each other that pays off for years down the road. These aspects are all significant upgrades from the pre-NTDP days.

                        And I don't think USA Hockey is in deep sh-- at all. The US U17, U18, U20 and Olympic teams were all really excellent this year - Gold and Silver medals virtually across the board - things are working and working well. I think USA Hockey also has done a terrific job developing players. There are 215 American in the NHL now. 15 years ago, there were about 100.

                        You are correct that some of those players would have made the NHL without the USTDP. And you are also right that the program has had its share of bad apples over the years, and that politics are part of the process. But I also think that anytime you gather 20-40 top young players, you are going to have more than your share of drama with players, parents and hometown coaches, who mostly feel that their kid should be getting more of their share .....(ice time, pp time, attention).

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                        • #27
                          Re: 2011 USA World Junior Evaulation Camp Roster

                          If they are inferior, why are they in last place? Hayes and Coyle for example will both be drafted before any dev team forward.

                          Kane et all are the exact same player today either way.

                          "sense of familiairty? That worked great with Thorton, Heatley et all in olympics. You are really reaching. Look how many from that class of 04 were on olympics and wait till the next one.

                          Nat program has zero to do with players in NHL, its the expansion/Gretzky years

                          You are reaching even farther

                          They can lift weights anywhere. Just ask why Kreider, Coyle etc all kill the combines.

                          Good players are good players, this program is a farce and a way to keep the pay coming in for the staff.

                          8 year olds pay for it with zero input, 99% of whom dont even know it

                          FYI, my opinion and yours have valid points, both of which I respect.

                          I stood and listened to Herb Brooks do a 40 minute speach on it and he despised it and blew out of the water times 50 every point you made.

                          I will stick with him.

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                          • #28
                            Re: 2011 USA World Junior Evaulation Camp Roster

                            Originally posted by Hokydad View Post

                            I stood and listened to Herb Brooks do a 40 minute speach on it and he despised it and blew out of the water times 50 every point you made.

                            I will stick with him.
                            No one cares about your lame name dropping, Stalker. Go back to your van.
                            Brown Bears - 2014 National Champions

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                            • #29
                              Re: 2011 USA World Junior Evaulation Camp Roster

                              Originally posted by Hokydad View Post
                              Hayes and Coyle for example will both be drafted before any dev team forward.
                              The two best forwards on the U18s, Saad and Nieto, are 2011 draft eligible, not 2010. Saad projected to be top 10 and Nieto top 20.

                              Originally posted by Hokydad View Post
                              They play in the USHL. They do maybe 10-15 tops intl games .
                              Conveniently ignoring 10 games vs D1 college teams and 5 more vs. good D3 teams.

                              Obviously you feel strongly about this topic, but omissions such as these undermine your argument and credibility.
                              The Terrier Hockey Fan Blog

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                              • #30
                                Re: 2011 USA World Junior Evaulation Camp Roster

                                I heard Herbie's player development strategy as well. He preferred satellite programs at regional levels, and it was interesting. That said, I doubt Herbie's motives were all pure player development related...Herbie's rivalry with Bob Johnson was legendary, and when Johnson became executive director of USA Hockey in the late 80s, Herbie reveled in taking shots at Johnson at every opportunity. And the USNTDP idea was one of Johnson's program ideas. Badger may have not won an Olympic Gold, but he did win NCAA titles and Stanley Cups, and in my view, was just as important a force for American hockey as Brooks.

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