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Cops 9: You Are What Now?

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  • Originally posted by state of hockey View Post
    Heard an argument that could made prosecuting the three others difficult. One that centered around them concentrating more on the public that was starting to amass around them only checking in here and there and seeing Chauvin had it under control. Basically "We feared for our lives", but without the fear being what the decedent would do. They were distracted.
    They asked Chauvin if they should roll him over. Chauvin said no. They asked him again, still no. They checked for his pulse, nothing. They still did nothing, while Chauvin sat on his neck for almost another three minutes.
    What kind of cheese are you planning to put on top?

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    • Originally posted by rufus View Post
      They asked Chauvin if they should roll him over. Chauvin said no. They asked him again, still no. They checked for his pulse, nothing. They still did nothing, while Chauvin sat on his neck for almost another three minutes.
      Oh I know how the argument sucks, it's just that the feared for our lives claim tends to trump all other evidence.
      the state of hockey is good

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      • Re: Cops 9: You Are What Now?

        Originally posted by alfablue View Post
        Just dawned on me that it has been turned from a racist, police action problem to a Union problem. How very republican.
        Police unions tend to vote GOP. GOP is now playing with fire.
        "The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." George Orwell, 1984

        "One does not simply walk into Mordor. Its Black Gates are guarded by more than just Orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume." Boromir

        "Good news! We have a delivery." Professor Farnsworth

        Comment


        • Re: Cops 9: You Are What Now?

          Originally posted by FadeToBlack&Gold View Post
          Except that police unions are definitely a substantial part of the problem. Large unions are not immune to corruption and greed by their leadership - just look at the ol' boys club that is the UAW.

          To dismiss racism and say unions are the only problem though, is definitely willful ignorance.
          I personally think unions are a convenient scapegoat.

          We have to remember this. We (the public) want police to have that protection, to be hard to fire. It didn't used to be that way. We insisted on it as part of good government, to protect us, and those reasons still exist.

          Police are part of the civil service system. In the first 100+ years of this country, it didn't exist. Public employees, including police, served at the pleasure of their newly elected masters. Did you know that's why President Garfield was shot? A guy showed up at the White House looking for a job following Garfield's election, and when he didn't get one, planned his assassination of the newly elected President.

          Without civil service rules, graft was rampant since the jobs were handed out as payment for lining up votes. Imagine the system we have now for ambassadors, but applied to all jobs down to the guy mowing the White House lawn.

          How excited would everyone be if Trump were allowed to take office and appoint his own private goon squad to serve as agents in the FBI or US Marshall's service?

          We demanded change, and that change came in the form of civil service rules that make it more difficult to fire public employees than it is to fire the rest of us. Unions are just an advocacy group for that protection.

          Do we really want the pendulum to swing back? Minneapolitans may like the police force that Frey appoints, but what about the next guy?

          Here is the problem, and it isn't a union problem. The true sadists on the police force are few and far between. They are not the problem, or not the problem for which we can't find a solution. The problem is the rest of the force. Until we can get them past the fear that testifying against or reporting the sadists will leave them hanging without backup the next time they're in a dicey situation, we're going to continue to see these incidents occur.
          That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

          Comment


          • Re: Cops 9: You Are What Now?

            Originally posted by SJHovey View Post
            I personally think unions are a convenient scapegoat.

            We have to remember this. We (the public) want police to have that protection, to be hard to fire. It didn't used to be that way. We insisted on it as part of good government, to protect us, and those reasons still exist.
            I look forward to your support of the teachers' union, public university tenure, and the unionization of other workers.
            Cornell University
            National Champion 1967, 1970
            ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
            Ivy League Champion 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1977, 1978, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1996, 1997, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2012, 2014, 2018, 2019, 2020

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            • Re: Cops 9: You Are What Now?

              Originally posted by SJHovey View Post
              The true sadists on the police force are few and far between.
              Here is the disconnect. The whole point of this protest is not that a sadist was allowed on the force. It is that systemic racism means even normal, well-meaning cops commit atrocities in defense of an oppressive system.

              I have no doubt that many overseers on slave plantations were trying to do the right thing. But their very mission made them abettors to torture and murder. Likewise, policing in principle is morally neutral or even laudable. But policing to protect the deeply sick American race hierarchy means even the best person on the force is supporting evil.

              This is not an attack on cops, it's an attack on the system the cops have to protect.

              If you could see that I believe from your prior statements that you would be 100% on board with the protests. The cops aren't the point here. The cops are a symptom, not the disease. The cops are, in fact, victims of the system. I doubt they signed up to be executioners to maintain a racist society and a pulverizing economic order that maims and kills the poor for the marginal greater enrichment of the 1%.
              Cornell University
              National Champion 1967, 1970
              ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
              Ivy League Champion 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1977, 1978, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1996, 1997, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2012, 2014, 2018, 2019, 2020

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              • Re: Cops 9: You Are What Now?

                Originally posted by Timothy A View Post
                https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...htmlstory.html

                Where's all the consternation and angst about this?

                https://www.dallasnews.com/news/inve...-timpa-s-life/

                Where's all the consternation and angst about this?

                Bad police officers need to be fired. We all agree on that. Who protects them? Their union maybe for one. There definitely needs to be reform there.

                It's not about race, it's about bad cops.
                Hey...remember that time you died on a hill telling us how Trump blowing up the Iran deal was a good thing. Those were good times.

                As for your consternation...you obviously actually arent paying attention. But dont worry your concern is noted and logged.
                "It's as if the Drumpf Administration is made up of the worst and unfunny parts of the Cleveland Browns, Washington Generals, and the alien Mon-Stars from Space Jam."
                -aparch

                "Scenes in "Empire Strikes Back" that take place on the tundra planet Hoth were shot on the present-day site of Ralph Engelstad Arena."
                -INCH

                Of course I'm a fan of the Vikings. A sick and demented Masochist of a fan, but a fan none the less.
                -ScoobyDoo 12/17/2007

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                • Re: Cops 9: You Are What Now?

                  Originally posted by state of hockey View Post
                  *spit take*

                  What is the level above winning? That is beyond A+.
                  "It's as if the Drumpf Administration is made up of the worst and unfunny parts of the Cleveland Browns, Washington Generals, and the alien Mon-Stars from Space Jam."
                  -aparch

                  "Scenes in "Empire Strikes Back" that take place on the tundra planet Hoth were shot on the present-day site of Ralph Engelstad Arena."
                  -INCH

                  Of course I'm a fan of the Vikings. A sick and demented Masochist of a fan, but a fan none the less.
                  -ScoobyDoo 12/17/2007

                  Comment


                  • Re: Cops 9: You Are What Now?

                    Originally posted by SJHovey View Post
                    Here is the problem, and it isn't a union problem. The true sadists on the police force are few and far between. They are not the problem, or not the problem for which we can't find a solution. The problem is the rest of the force. Until we can get them past the fear that testifying against or reporting the sadists will leave them hanging without backup the next time they're in a dicey situation, we're going to continue to see these incidents occur.
                    So what you are saying is that the police are like organized crime....

                    Comment


                    • Re: Cops 9: You Are What Now?

                      Originally posted by FadeToBlack&Gold View Post
                      Re: Ellison's move - woo boy...
                      I asked my dad about it (former attorney) and he said that it is A) the right move and B) was completely predictable. Said Third degree was just a placeholder so they could arrest quick without a grand jury. (which legal experts said as well so he didnt exactly break new ground there) As a former defense attorney he said he wouldnt touch this case though even if he thought he had a shot at winning. Even moving venues wont help unless they pick the perfect municipality.

                      It should be known my dad HATES cops and is also not a fan of Ellison in any way but is 100% behind Ellison taking the case and the tactics being used and despite his belief that cops almost never get convicted thinks all 4 will be done like dinner. Rather enlightening conversation actually.
                      "It's as if the Drumpf Administration is made up of the worst and unfunny parts of the Cleveland Browns, Washington Generals, and the alien Mon-Stars from Space Jam."
                      -aparch

                      "Scenes in "Empire Strikes Back" that take place on the tundra planet Hoth were shot on the present-day site of Ralph Engelstad Arena."
                      -INCH

                      Of course I'm a fan of the Vikings. A sick and demented Masochist of a fan, but a fan none the less.
                      -ScoobyDoo 12/17/2007

                      Comment


                      • Re: Cops 9: You Are What Now?

                        Originally posted by Handyman View Post
                        I asked my dad about it (former attorney) and he said that it is A) the right move and B) was completely predictable. Said Third degree was just a placeholder so they could arrest quick without a grand jury. (which legal experts said as well so he didnt exactly break new ground there) As a former defense attorney he said he wouldnt touch this case though even if he thought he had a shot at winning. Even moving venues wont help unless they pick the perfect municipality.

                        It should be known my dad HATES cops and is also not a fan of Ellison in any way but is 100% behind Ellison taking the case and the tactics being used and despite his belief that cops almost never get convicted thinks all 4 will be done like dinner. Rather enlightening conversation actually.
                        That's actually fascinating. You should get him to post here. The best we can do is guess but he actually knows what's going on. SMEs are good. :-)
                        Cornell University
                        National Champion 1967, 1970
                        ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
                        Ivy League Champion 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1977, 1978, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1996, 1997, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2012, 2014, 2018, 2019, 2020

                        Comment


                        • Re: Cops 9: You Are What Now?

                          Originally posted by alfablue View Post
                          So what you are saying is that the police are like organized crime....
                          Or mean girls in high school. Same principle.

                          You know what they say on the streets. Gang violence is the biggest threat to the community and the biggest, most heavily armed gang is the cops.

                          "Nice black neighborhood you got here. Be a shame if something 'appened to it."
                          Last edited by Kepler; 06-03-2020, 02:47 PM.
                          Cornell University
                          National Champion 1967, 1970
                          ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
                          Ivy League Champion 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1977, 1978, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1996, 1997, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2012, 2014, 2018, 2019, 2020

                          Comment


                          • Re: Cops 9: You Are What Now?

                            Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                            Or mean girls in high school. Same principle.
                            Seems like we should reconsider standing up and cheering for them in a sporting event.... Which is pretty hollow anyway.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Cops 9: You Are What Now?

                              Originally posted by state of hockey View Post
                              Heard an argument that could made prosecuting the three others difficult. One that centered around them concentrating more on the public that was starting to amass around them only checking in here and there and seeing Chauvin had it under control. Basically "We feared for our lives", but without the fear being what the decedent would do. They were distracted.
                              The picture of the one cop staring at Chauvin with his knee on the neck will destroy that argument. He not only doesnt look fearful...he looks transfixed and relaxed.

                              See the issue is everyone has seen what happened. They would have a better chance claiming they cant get a fair trial than claiming they were in fear for their life.

                              They could raise the idea of not being able to get a fair trial. But since there was protests everywhere in the state I am not sure they could find a spot, even in cop friendly areas, where they will be able to make the "I was in fear for my life" stick. What kind of a ***** cop would you be if you feared a drunk man who was contained and dying on the ground
                              "It's as if the Drumpf Administration is made up of the worst and unfunny parts of the Cleveland Browns, Washington Generals, and the alien Mon-Stars from Space Jam."
                              -aparch

                              "Scenes in "Empire Strikes Back" that take place on the tundra planet Hoth were shot on the present-day site of Ralph Engelstad Arena."
                              -INCH

                              Of course I'm a fan of the Vikings. A sick and demented Masochist of a fan, but a fan none the less.
                              -ScoobyDoo 12/17/2007

                              Comment


                              • Re: Cops 9: You Are What Now?

                                Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                                I look forward to your support of the teachers' union, public university tenure, and the unionization of other workers.
                                I don't think I've ever considered myself anti-union. If I were a working stiff would I be advocating to form a union in my workplace? I'm not so sure about that because I'm not sure the cost to me would equal the benefit. But I'm not a union hater.

                                I think the primary problem that I've seen with unions here in Minnesota has to do with the way disputes are resolved. Basically, an arbitrator is appointed to decide things like whether a terminated employee should get his or her job back. There are two principal problems with this system. First, most of the arbitrators are drawn from the union or employee side of the equation. You don't see a lot of business owners, or lawyers representing employers, suddenly decide they've had a lifelong dream to be a labor arbitrator. That sort of institutional "bias" tends, imho, to lead to more difficulty in terminating employees and making it stick.

                                Second, arbitrators are selected by agreement of the parties, or through a "strike" system. If you're not selected, you don't work. Thus, there is at least some incentive to be viewed favorably by both the employer and employee groups and their advocates, to the extent possible. As a result, you can get some halving of the baby, where maybe the guy gets his job back, but is suspended without pay for a lengthy period of time. I don't think you see a lot of "total victory" decisions, or at least not as many as are maybe warranted for one side or the other.

                                I've always thought that the concept of unions creates a weird conundrum. I think they're are necessary in the public setting because we don't want our police services or our city inspectors or those types of employees subject to political pressure to support the desires of one candidate or another. Unfortunately, they don't work well in the public setting in terms of negotiating terms because from the standpoint of the employer, "it's not my money." If someone else has to pay the pay raise (the public as a whole) it's easier to back down.

                                On the other hand, private employers can do a great job of negotiating tough. It's their money. But I actually think private sector employees are less at risk of just getting randomly terminated. There are a myriad of employee protection laws that apply to private employees, and most private employers understand there is a cost to constantly replacing employees.

                                These are generalizations, understand, but they have formed the basis for my opinion that unions are simply a fact of life in the workplace, and are neither inherently evil nor good.
                                That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

                                Comment

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