COVID-19 - Part 2

[net presence]

Re: COVID-19 - Part 2

SPECIAL REPORT: China's deadly coronavirus cover-up
2,426,282 views•Apr 5, 2020
Australian News Documentary

https://youtu.be/pKmUxSlOoUE

Sky News Australia

Chinese journalists have shed light on their country’s deadly coronavirus cover-up which has led to tens of thousands of deaths and sent global economies crashing to a halt. Sky News Australia presents COVID-19: Ground Zero – an investigation into what caused the killer coronavirus and how China managed to bury the truth for so long.

South China Morning Post news editor Josephine Ma told Sky News her government covered up more than 200 cases of coronavirus in 2019, delaying global warnings and allowing the spread of the virus to leak into other countries. Ground Zero also details the incredible steps nations around the world are taking to minimize the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic.

Chinese Communist Party knew in mid-November
Chinese Wuhan death rate much higher
South Korea did not shut down the country - will be first to be virus-free - they were prepared
Italy and Spain and New York City ignored the thread of the virus but not the threat of racism ..... "hugg a Chinese" ..... very bad move.

Video worth seeing ... some Trump-bashing and some insight we don't have from US media groupthink.

Dutch, for the umpteenth time...everyone realizes China didn't provide truly accurate information regarding total infections and deaths. The number of deaths is probably closer to between 75K and 100K. And again I ask, SO WHAT? What in the hell does that have to do with Trump and his administration's ridiculously horrible response? The administration was first made aware of the issues in China in regards to the virus on January 3rd!! That's about 70 days before he finally acknowledged the seriousness of what was happening.

[net presence]

Re: COVID-19 - Part 2

based on CDC world estimates of H1N1, 19 may not reach those numbers, currently at about 1/2 of the LOWER estimate

First of all, as Trump supporters like "Dutchman" just pointed out, China's infected and dead numbers are probably greatly under-reported. There are estimates that they may have experienced between 50,000 and 100,000 deaths. You can also assume that the true infected and dead numbers from Russia, Iran, India, and most of the African countries will be vastly under-reported as well. Hell, we are under-reporting in New York City as they are responding to a number of people who died at home but, due to lack of tests, those individuals aren't tested for Covid -- even though they probably did die from it and thus aren't counted as a Covid fatality. So, the actual current number of deaths from Covid worldwide could already be in the range of 200,000. That would already be in the mid range of H1N1 fatalities for the year 2009 and we're only 5 months in to this.

[rufus]

Re: COVID-19 - Part 2

Dimwit Donnie was praising the Chinese for their transparency and the efforts by Xe up until the end of Feb.

Now that his incompetence has killed a bunch of Americans, it's the Chinese were keeping this secret and never told us about it.

[LynahFan]

Re: COVID-19 - Part 2

SPECIAL REPORT: China's deadly coronavirus cover-up
2,426,282 views•Apr 5, 2020
Australian News Documentary

https://youtu.be/pKmUxSlOoUE

Sky News Australia

Chinese journalists have shed light on their country’s deadly coronavirus cover-up which has led to tens of thousands of deaths and sent global economies crashing to a halt. Sky News Australia presents COVID-19: Ground Zero – an investigation into what caused the killer coronavirus and how China managed to bury the truth for so long.

South China Morning Post news editor Josephine Ma told Sky News her government covered up more than 200 cases of coronavirus in 2019, delaying global warnings and allowing the spread of the virus to leak into other countries. Ground Zero also details the incredible steps nations around the world are taking to minimize the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic.

Chinese Communist Party knew in mid-November
Chinese Wuhan death rate much higher
South Korea did not shut down the country - will be first to be virus-free - they were prepared
Italy and Spain and New York City ignored the thread of the virus but not the threat of racism ..... "hugg a Chinese" ..... very bad move.

Video worth seeing ... some Trump-bashing and some insight we don't have from US media groupthink.

So in the case of Italy and Spain, the fault is at the national level, but in the US, the fault is solely with NYC? Interesting spin, there...

[Chuck Murray]

Re: COVID-19 - Part 2

Wide range of discussion topics with some decent questions (others less so), so let's start here ...

have you considered why the number of forecasted death might be going down? If you ask Dr. Fauci he would probably tell you that our social distancing efforts are paying off.

I'm sure that's part of it, BassAle. But the range between the original predictions - a chasm between literally millions of US deaths forecasted, and now the latest (tens of thousands of US deaths) - should shock anyone with any degree of objective reason. These are numbers, not feelings or opinions.

Here's a sports-themed example - let's say I hold myself out as a pro football expert, and I predict at the start of the season, your NE Patriots are going to win 12+ games, and coast to the AFC East (again), even without Brady at QB. It's a unique situation with no real data to draw upon, right? Belichick without Brady and Scarnecchia (sp?)? Kinda like novel COVID-19? But you trust my expertise, and you bet the house on the Pats winning at least those 12 games.

So, we get a few games into the season, and it's clear the Patriots are no longer THE Patriots of recent vintage. They're going to struggle. Say they've gotten out of the gate at 3-3. Me, the pro football expert, comes on here and says "well, based on the data coming back now, it's looking like a 7-9 or 8-8 season, or maybe a 9-7 season if they improve". Does that make me an "expert"? Or does that mean I was just (educated) guessing up front, and now I'm revising my (more educated) guess? It doesn't matter to you, because you bet your house on my expertise educated guesswork, and now YOU are losing your shirt - not me. As a result, should I expect you to come back for my "wisdom" when making your get-even wagers on the NBA season? I doubt it.

The modelers in London, and the IHME folks in Seattle WA were the "experts" upon whose predictions we shut the country down. Let's just say that they were a little "off" - and pardon the excuses, but when you're that far off, it's not a close call. Throw in the extra death "padding" that Dr. Birx mentioned yesterday, and it's reflecting rather poorly on the modelers. More on that later …

… but a fair question, and one I hope I answered fairly. The quality takes a steep step down here ...

Did (HRC) ever tell anyone to leave the country because they disagreed with her, that they were nasty for asking a question, call them a dummy dope, refer to other countries as a ****hole, create childish nicknames for nearly every political opponent, call someone a spoiled brat, or a low class slob, a perv sleazebag, refer to the typical person of a country a rapist, claim to a be a negotiator like "you folks" when speaking to a Jewish coalition, reference "the blacks", or generally present herself as a racist d-bag that never cared for anyone else but herself and the 1%?

https://www.forbes.com/pictures/flji...ps-10-most-of/
https://www.politico.eu/article/15-m...ration-racism/
https://www.vo*****/2016/7/25/122708...racism-history

I don't even like Hillary but to compare the types of reactions each should elicit is beyond bizarre.

Actually, since you apparently weren't paying attention back in mid-2016, but Hils did basically call about a quarter of the country racists, sexists, etc. yada yada yada (see deplorables). And one of her literally hundreds of post-election excuses was that "too many women were getting their voting orders ("mansplaining"?) from their husbands/fathers/significant male others", thus accusing even more folks of sexism and/or sheer stupidity in the most contemptuous way ("How DARE you not vote for me, The Chosen One, you unenlightened little girls?"). So that's "beyond bizarre"? Only your failure to see beyond your own cloistered viewpoint, I'm afraid. C'est la vie.

P.S. - with such a great handle ("Slap Shot"), I'd think you'd be a little less sensitive to President Trump's creative labeling, name-calling, or unfavorable descriptions of third-world he11holes lost paradises like Haiti, Guatemala and Honduras. Maybe you'll give some thought to re-naming your on-line persona as Lady Byng or Participation Medal? Or Bambi?

We'll wrap up today's lunchtime briefing with this one, which brings us back to the modeling thingie ...

Yep, just like those scientists hired by Exxon in the '80s predicted precicely where we would be at today if we jammed our thumbs up our a** and ignored carbon emissions for 30 years. And lo! Now that we're removing our collective thumbs, the scientists were right!

But somehow, according to the modern GOP, science is now a fraud and completely inaccurate?

First of all, here's the thing. Before anyone on the Left gets to lecture on the "Science" thing - which I do understand substitutes for your secular religion (hey, to each their own) - you have to answer me this. When the same "Science" you worship makes it routinely possible for so-called "clumps of cells" to be born AND then live pretty much normal human lives after the midway mark of a human pregnancy, then how is it that so many (not all BTW)on the Left just shrug at the idea of well over a half-million of these future humans not getting to live their lives (like you and me), out of no fault of their own?



If you pass that test, then good for you, feel free to lecture away. Let's pick up the discussion here. "Science" and the modelers haven't even figured out a vaccine for COVID-19 yet. It's downright arrogant to think they can unlock the mysteries of how the planet operates. But since they get paid substantial sums for having "expert" opinions - just like my fictional pro football expert from the start of this post - they have to come up with something to justify their expertise. So the "global cooling" of the 1970's (yes, boys and girls - this WAS a "thing" believe it or not) morphed into the "global warming" of the 1990's, and now into a vague and less assailable "climate change" we're having now. A lot of the same folks who hatched the earlier junk science guesswork back in the day are still at it. And the dire predictions of "doomsday" (sounding familiar yet?) are always just far enough off that folks like me are supposed to forget about their earlier failed prognostications.

Or we can put it another way … our present-day scientists and modelers - most of whom I want to believe are well-intentioned, if not a tad naïve and idealistic - are working with high-quality data that stretches back (and I'll be generous here) a century, tops. Other data exists, but it's harder to incorporate into models, so that tends to get left on the cutting room floor. But the planet has been in existence for a few billion years, so the complete data set would have to at least - at LEAST - include a few million years, no? So, 100 years in comparison with (at least) hundreds of millions of years? There are roughly 90,000 seconds in a single day. That means our modelers are taking guesses on what just happened a second or two before midnight while ignoring the rest of the day. Well-intentioned? Sure? Some opportunists? Yup. Something to worry about? For me, no.

In conclusion, I'll let leftist icon George Carlin weigh in first, and then let Dennis Prager weigh in more recently from the right. Two more different folks you probably couldn't imagine. But I think you'll be surprised at how this all plays out (maybe Carlin knows my buddy Nostradamus?) :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W33HRc1A6c

https://www.dennisprager.com/maybe-n...ped-after-all/

[aparch]

When the same "Science" you worship makes it routinely possible for so-called "clumps of cells" to be born AND then live pretty much normal human lives after the midway mark of a human pregnancy, then how is it that so many (not all BTW)on the Left just shrug at the idea of well over a half-million of these future humans not getting to live their lives (like you and me), out of no fault of their own?

If those "clumps of cells" are a human life halfway through the gestation period, why are pregnant mothers with 20+ week old unborn fetuses not getting a $500 bonus on the stimulus checks that your "Party of Life" is handing out?

[net presence]

Re: COVID-19 - Part 2

Another day along the road for our Test Drive for Socialism. You folks enjoying this yet? I mean, other than the lefties who are "living the dream" with a command economy, restrictions on our personal liberties and Constitutional rights, and taking orders from DNC toadies all throughout the MSM landscape. Enjoy it while it lasts, comrades. And my sincere apologies to anyone who was offended by my "don't you folks have jobs?" comment. Of course, my personal stalker (who is getting creepier and creepier by the day - confirming my original suspicions BTW) chimed in ...



Wow, that came as a total surprise. Way too much time on your hands, my malleable-as-Play-Doh friend. I see you lapsed into another three-section screed earlier, so it looks like you chose to ignore my "quality over quantity" advice. For what it's worth, I skipped the "odyssey" this time, so your New Poster Smell (and yeah, 15 years reading before, not creepy at all … ) is apparently wearing off. I guess I'm relieved that it's just not me that's pushing your buttons.

Anyway, I guess this is the guy who 'Watcher suspected of being "me", and while I've told you that's not the case - and anyone who wants to check with the USCHO mods, go for it - I did like the way s/he wrapped up on the following conclusions fo a pair of their posts:





Maybe you and my stalker Net can get together and hash this all out for us/me?

The second one there is a little "hot" for me, but the underlying point does take us back to where the discussion was a few weeks ago on our original D-1 thread. At some point, the "cure" is going to become more costly than the disease. I'm kind of OK to a degree with what we're doing now, but this has to end. The models have scared the bejeezus out of ordinary folks, and now the models are coming under scrutiny when millions of forecasted deaths, and then hundreds of thousands, are now being revised to tens of thousands. AND the death count, per Dr. Birx yesterday, is being "liberally" counted. Which likely means many deaths being counted as being FROM COVID-19 are simply deaths from other causes by people WITH COVID-19.

All lives are to be valued … but who will be counting the many additional deaths from depression, substance abuse recidivism, and poverty directly related to unemployment? Especially if IHME models - the basis upon which we have this shutdown - are shown to have been alarmingly overstated?

It's definitely trending in that direction. And remember, boys and girls, global cooling global warming climate change is built on models just like those. TTFN.

Hey Chuck, thanks for checking in! I'm worried that you might have a reading comprehension problem. As I've stated previously, yes, I do have lots of time on my hands as my job is hockey related (usually Sept thru April). So, summers off and, this is usually my slow time of the year. It's really a great gig if you can get it. Sorry you're not able to have it as good as I do. As for the lengths of my posts, I just feel it's really important to push back on every single inaccurate point or right wing trope you guys throw out there. Otherwise, the individuals posting that garbage become more emboldened. I mean, look at our limited back and forth. I pushed back on all of you ridiculousness and now you won't respond directly to me.

Next, in response to the items you bolded from "dontstayathome" amazing diatribe. The models aren't false. As scientists/experts like Fauci, Briz, and Michael Olsterholm say, no model is ever really accurate but you need to decide which one is useful. Take a listen to the first few minutes of this podcast hosted by Joe Rogan interviewing Michael Olsterholm, the Director for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota:

https://podtail.com/en/podcast/the-j...ael-osterholm/

Although I and many others believe this is stating the obvious, in situations such as these elected leaders are expected to plan for the worst case scenario yet, hope for the best outcomes. And, apparently, the steps we are taking may be working which, is why the models are now changing. Why is this so hard for people like you, Dutchman, and dontstayathome to understand?

As for the number of people who might commit suicide due to increased depression, or anxiety, or lapse back into addiction; due you really think that total will be anywhere close to the lives we'll probably save by doing increased social distancing? I'm sorry but, it's not even close. And yes, I have much experience in dealing with depression, anxiety and suicide as my oldest child has dealt with that for over 5 years, to include having expressed they have considered committing suicide. And, my middle child just started their journey into the LGBTQ community and is obviously experiencing anxiety from that decision.

Finally, the climate change models aren't the same as these and, since 90+% of all scientists around the globe agree that there is human caused climate change and that if we don't make significant alterations in how we affect our planet that we'll be facing something even more life altering than this pandemic, I'm not going to dignify your remarks with a detailed response. If you really want to get into that debate, then I'll provide links that prove my assertion. I await your response to the specific points I made in my post a couple of nights ago.

[French Rage]

Re: COVID-19 - Part 2

If those "clumps of cells" are a human life halfway through the gestation period, why are pregnant mothers with 20+ week old unborn fetuses not getting a $500 bonus on the stimulus checks that your "Party of Life" is handing out?

And I'm assuming Chuck will vote Democrat, since abortions fall precipitously during Dem administrations but hold steady during GOP ones.

[Dutchman]

Re: COVID-19 - Part 2

"MTA blames ‘sluggish’ WHO, CDC as its coronavirus death toll mounts"

https://nypost.com/2020/04/08/mta-bl...h-toll-mounts/

This NY Post article fully supports my contention that CDC ****edup bigtime. I would also throw in the NIH (National Institute of Health) and the FDA. MTA is New York Cities Metropolitan Transit Authority. They have lost 41 employees to the virus thus far. They blame the WHO and the CDC. I do too. We still don't have tests available for everyone who wants it. We are still are not sure how the virus gets transmitted. MIT's research about how the virus spreads is different from the CDC. Now we are being told to wear masks. If MIT's research is correct, we should have been doing that in January.

Between Mid November when the outbreak occurred to January 3 tens of thousands of Wuhan residents left to spread the virus around the world. Today, tens of thousands of New Yorkers have left to spread the virus around the USA.

Biden says we should listen to the scientists. I say they have their head up their ***.

[Rover]

Re: COVID-19 - Part 2

Just curious but do any of the knuckledraggers posting out here have any background in science or medicine? Because if I'm going to believe that scientists and their data are wrong, it would be nice to know the basis for that conclusion is something other than "I dun read it on da internet".

[jflory81]

Re: COVID-19 - Part 2

Just curious but do any of the knuckledraggers posting out here have any background in science or medicine? Because if I'm going to believe that scientists and their data are wrong, it would be nice to know the basis for that conclusion is something other than "I dun read it on da internet".

Come on. You know the answer to that already.

[Rover]

Re: COVID-19 - Part 2

Come on. You know the answer to that already.

It never hurts to remind people of it. Lots of experts on epidemiology out here, most of which don't sound like they have the ability to tie their shoes without assistance.

[Kepler]

Re: COVID-19 - Part 2

Welcome to the Cafe, D-1ers!

This is like a comedy where the special ed teacher dies and his students get shipped to the honors class because the corrupt Principal, played by John Vernon, has to keep his attendance numbers up as he's been embezzling funding and can't get caught short.

[Dutchman]

Re: COVID-19 - Part 2

If the virus does not kill you, the ventilator will .....

Some doctors moving away from ventilators for virus patients
By MIKE STOBBE
46 minutes ago

https://apnews.com/8ccd325c2be9bf454c2128dcb7bd616d

You will be shocked when you read this .... why has this taken so long to be reported !!! the Food and Drug Administration is responsible for ensuring that medical devices are supposed to do what they claim without harm to the patient. They are not supposed to kill the patient. The National Institue of Health spends 16 billion a year on research. It has 20,000 employees. It's part of HHS. HHS has a budget of 1.3 Trillion. We are just discovering the danger of ventilators for this virus? Give me a break !!! Try this .... oh if that does not work ... try that. This is not how scientific medicine is supposed to work. As taxpayers are not getting our money's worth.

NEW YORK (AP) — As health officials around the world push to get more ventilators to treat coronavirus patients, some doctors are moving away from using the breathing machines when they can.

The reason: Some hospitals have reported unusually high death rates for coronavirus patients on ventilators, and some doctors worry that the machines could be harming certain patients.

The evolving treatments highlight the fact that doctors are still learning the best way to manage a virus that emerged only months ago. They are relying on anecdotal, real-time data amid a crush of patients and shortages of basic supplies.

Mechanical ventilators push oxygen into patients whose lungs are failing. Using the machines involves sedating a patient and sticking a tube into the throat. Deaths in such sick patients are common, no matter the reason they need breathing help.

Generally speaking, 40% to 50% of patients with severe respiratory distress die while on ventilators, experts say. But 80% or more of coronavirus patients placed on the machines in New York City have died, state and city officials say.

Higher-than-normal death rates also have been reported elsewhere in the U.S., said Dr. Albert Rizzo, the American Lung Association’s chief medical officer.

Similar reports have emerged from China and the United Kingdom. One U.K. report put the figure at 66%. A very small study in Wuhan, the Chinese city where the disease first emerged, said 86% died.

The reason is not clear. It may have to do with what kind of shape the patients were in before they were infected. Or it could be related to how sick they had become by the time they were put on the machines, some experts said.

But some health professionals have wondered whether ventilators might actually make matters worse in certain patients, perhaps by igniting or worsening a harmful immune system reaction.

That’s speculation. But experts do say ventilators can be damaging to a patient over time, as high-pressure oxygen is forced into the tiny air sacs in a patient’s lungs.

“We know that mechanical ventilation is not benign,” said Dr. Eddy Fan, an expert on respiratory treatment at Toronto General Hospital. “One of the most important findings in the last few decades is that medical ventilation can worsen lung injury — so we have to be careful about how we use it.”

The dangers can be eased by limiting the amount of pressure and the size of breaths delivered by the machine, Fan said.

[Kepler]

Re: COVID-19 - Part 2

If the virus does not kill you, the ventilator will .....

Please give source citations when you can. I see Stobbe is an AP medical writer. Is that his twitter?