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Thread: COVID-19 - Part 2

  1. #1
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    Thumbs up COVID-19 - Part 2

    After some early turbulence, the last thread closed with some sane, rational discussion. Big decisions coming up on the horizon. Let's keep it going, right here. Thanks to all who have been contributing to a marked increase in the quality of discussion, and for taking the temperature down from where this all started off. Be well, everyone.
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    Re: COVID-19 - Part 2

    This discussion no longer belongs in the hockey forum. Take this to the cafe.

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    Re: COVID-19 - Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Middle Street View Post
    This discussion no longer belongs in the hockey forum. Take this to the cafe.
    Charming ...
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    Re: COVID-19 - Part 2

    Ignore him. Keep this version of the thread here. In fact, there is no cafe. It's an urban legend.

    Cornell '04, Stanford '06


    KDR

    Rover Frenchy, Classic! Great post.
    iwh30 I wish I could be as smart as you. I really do you are the man
    gregg729 I just saw your sig, you do love having people revel in your "intelligence."
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    Miss Thundercat That's it, you win.
    TBA#2 I want to kill you and dance in your blood.
    DisplacedCornellian Hahaha. Thread over. Frenchy wins.


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  5. #5
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    Re: COVID-19 - Part 2

    Turning this to ďthe economyĒ before the epidemic has subsided is like crossing the intersection while the light is still red.

    ďLetís send everyone back where they were three weeks ago, but now we have scores of thousands of sick people spreading it around instead of a hundred or soĒ

    Does that sound sane to anyone?

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    Re: COVID-19 - Part 2

    Whatís going to happen? Are people going to go to restaurants? Bars? Sporting events? Are we going to reopen schools? Start traveling again?

    The great news here is that this is a downturn thatís self inflicted by halting all discretionary spending. With the exception of those who need treatment and those who are out of work due to this, that discretionary spending hold off means people will spend it later when things get back to normal. Those people (a good majority) will help bounce things back fairly quickly.

    For everyone else we can subsidize treatment, expand unemployment insurance and provide payroll tax cuts to cover bills, help the less fortunate and lend aid to struggling business (respectively).

    Why we should voluntarily do the of what we should be doing to keep this disease at bay? Without mass testing, we have zero tools to ensure that our isolation measures are targeted to those with the disease, as this isnít like Ebola and many people can carry it without realizing itís anything serious.

    We have tools to fight economic downturns. We have no reason to throw away the only tools we have against this disease.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ExileOnDaytonStreet View Post
    Turning this to ďthe economyĒ before the epidemic has subsided is like crossing the intersection while the light is still red.

    ďLetís send everyone back where they were three weeks ago, but now we have scores of thousands of sick people spreading it around instead of a hundred or soĒ

    Does that sound sane to anyone?
    Absolutely not. He's trying to compare this with car accidents it is not the same. Displays a cavalier attitude about those who will die from this. No empathy...as I mentioned in the closed thread on this America experienced our first 100 dead in one day.

    You'd think that would be newsworthy to him. Telling everyone next week "there's nothing to see here" is a death sentence to many. It's like a nuclear bomb went off and people cant see the radioactive waves all around them...Reminds me of Chernobyl somehow?
    Last edited by HockeyRef; 03-23-2020 at 09:18 PM.

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    Re: COVID-19 - Part 2

    We are opting out of discretionary spending because of an outbreak. Maybe if we make the outbreak worse ON PURPOSE, people will stay in less?

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    Re: COVID-19 - Part 2

    Pretty much blew a gasket when I heard the change in tune today to what is basically a ďprice of doing businessĒ. As in, peopleís lives.

    Iím at the point now where Iíll say itís a good thing this mindset didnít exist during WW2. Weíd all be speaking German now. Geez, sacrifice is part of why we still exist as a country. No exceptions.

    To expend lives because of economics shows just how low the orange man child has taken many in this country.

  10. #10
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    Re: COVID-19 - Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Murray View Post
    After some early turbulence, the last thread closed with some sane, rational discussion.
    Let us know when you'll be participating.

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    Re: COVID-19 - Part 2

    Interesting results as physicians Dr. Jeff Colyer, currently the chairman of the National Advisory Commission on Rural Health, and Dr. Daniel Hinthorn, director of the Division of Infectious Disease at the University of Kansas Medical Center begin to monitor the administration of HCQ and azithromycin in CoV-19 patients.

    In a Monday Wall Street Journal op-ed, Dr. Colyer and Dr. Hinthorn, write that they are treating their Covid-19 patients with hydroxychoroquine and report that “the therapy appears to be making a difference. It isn’t a silver bullet, but if deployed quickly and strategically the drug could potentially help bend the pandemic’s “hockey stick” curve.” They have begun using hydroxychloroquine in combination with azithromycin, or as many of us know it, with Z-pak. They have found that, with the combination, their patients “appear to be showing fewer symptoms.”

    The most important point the doctors make is that we don’t have the luxury of time. There are currently larger studies being conducted, but the results won’t be available for weeks. They explain, “We have a drug with an excellent safety profile but limited clinical outcomes—and no better alternatives until long after this disaster peaks. We can use this treatment to help save lives and prevent others from becoming infected. Or we can wait several weeks and risk discovering we didn’t do everything we could to end this pandemic as quickly as possible.” It will also help contain the spread of the disease.

  12. #12
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    Re: COVID-19 - Part 2

    Glad to see the new Part 2 thread has sprung back to life overnight.

    Quote Originally Posted by ExileOnDaytonStreet View Post
    Whatís going to happen? Are people going to go to restaurants? Bars? Sporting events? Are we going to reopen schools? Start traveling again?
    Most importantly, people who are not fitting the high risk profile should get back to work - whatever their work happens to be. I'm guessing here, but I suspect re-opening of restaurants for dine-in service will probably be put off a little bit longer, as will sporting events (longer). I'm not sure I ever agreed it made sense to close schools, but since most have committed to remote learning through the end of the current school year, the physical schools will probably continue to be closed. But the teachers are working now anyway. The financial hit there really doesn't exist, or at least exists on a much smaller scale. In fact, the difference in the impacts between the public sector and private sector (especially small business) is huge. We were discussing that on the last thread when it finally maxed out. It's something that is very real, and probably explains a lot of the disconnect between the "just stay home" crowd, and the "back to work" crowd. Criticizing those who want to AND can work doesn't help.

    From my perspective, the key is to allow those who can work (without endangering themselves or the general public) to either continue to work, or to get back to work. "One size fits all" doesn't always make sense (more on that later) ...

    Quote Originally Posted by ExileOnDaytonStreet View Post
    The great news here is that this is a downturn thatís self inflicted by halting all discretionary spending. With the exception of those who need treatment and those who are out of work due to this, that discretionary spending hold off means people will spend it later when things get back to normal. Those people (a good majority) will help bounce things back fairly quickly.
    The part of this that gets blithely overlooked is that sure, for many companies, when the economy goes "live" again, many jobs should still be there. But for small businesses - Main Street America businesses, some would say - they are within weeks if not days of losing their jobs, their careers, their businesses. Many of those will not magically resuscitate when some DC functionary decides the coast is clear. And some as-yet-undefined government handout program doesn't give them their job/career/business back - it just gives them short-term compensation. Arbitrarily shutting it down, for a few weeks? We're trying that now. Going much beyond early April, "just because" Ö how does that make any sense??

    Quote Originally Posted by ExileOnDaytonStreet View Post
    For everyone else we can subsidize treatment, expand unemployment insurance and provide payroll tax cuts to cover bills, help the less fortunate and lend aid to struggling business (respectively).

    Why we should voluntarily do the of what we should be doing to keep this disease at bay? Without mass testing, we have zero tools to ensure that our isolation measures are targeted to those with the disease, as this isnít like Ebola and many people can carry it without realizing itís anything serious.
    As noted above Ö unemployment insurance is a short-term fix, and does not undo damage inflicted upon one's job, career or business. Let's say you are a young and healthy person, mid 20's, no predisposition to any of the risk factors, no symptoms, and you are a key player in a health & fitness-related small business. You've spent your entire working life to date (let's say 5 years) building a successful statewide business Ö and then this suddenly comes up. Your company's revenue dries up because of being ordered to shut down indefinitely, that ends incoming cash flow, and there's a six-figure shortfall in a relatively short time, which can then potentially be exacerbated over the course of several more weeks (months even?). Unemployment may help out for a short stretch Ö but what happens then if the business is no longer there when someone like you decides it's OK to re-open?



    Quote Originally Posted by ExileOnDaytonStreet View Post
    We have tools to fight economic downturns. We have no reason to throw away the only tools we have against this disease.
    There are many potential tools to be explored. The ones we're using now are to flatten the curve, not to cure the disease. Can someone explain to me logically why the same approach should be taken in New Hampshire than in New York City? Or Upstate New York than in NYC and its surrounding areas (including the New Rochelle "hotspot")? Washington State than Wyoming?

    If the hydroxy-chlorquine (sp?) trials continue to show positive results, doesn't that substitute for "flattening the curve" until a vaccine is developed in a year's time?

    The point that continues to be missed is that economic downturns and uncertainty comes with its own cost in lost and ruined lives, but those are just harder numbers to count. How many recovering substance abusers fall back into depression, and/or then back into prior behaviors? Depression can often lead to suicide. How is that lost (or irreparably damaged) life any less valuable than someone who succumbs to COVID-19?

    On the prior COVID-19 thread in this forum, at least a week ago, some of us began to discuss how there would likely come a point where the "cure" has a more adverse impact than the disease itself. A week or so later, and the national discussion has started to come around to this point. And it's absolutely a legitimate discussion - not some rash or uncaring approach, for many of the reasons outlined in this post.

    For the short term issues, I'm hoping Congress can get their collective acts together and get something passed today. There have been bad actors - both sides, Burr and Feinstein to name the most prominent two - who we've ripped in the prior thread, and they deserve it. Tucker Carlson was must-see TV last night (and that hasn't often been the case lately), but after savaging Burr and Feinstein, and grilling Loeffler at length at the end of last week, he now takes on the sheer stupidity (both sides) of the partisan politics being advanced on the short-term bailout with this excerpt from last night's show. I've put this at the end of my post, so if you want to spend 5 minutes on it, you should do so. And if you want to skip it, feel free to do so ...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Un-DdiDJFns
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    Re: COVID-19 - Part 2

    Itís lunacy to be talking about reopening things without widespread and rapid testing to identify the asymptomatic carriers who otherwise will spread Covid-19 everywhere. Those people will spread it around their place of work, and others will bring it home to at-risk family members. Cases and deaths will spike.

    We need widespread testing before we can even think about easing, not eliminating, social distancing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BassAle View Post
    Itís lunacy to be talking about reopening things without widespread and rapid testing to identify the asymptomatic carriers who otherwise will spread Covid-19 everywhere. Those people will spread it around their place of work, and others will bring it home to at-risk family members. Cases and deaths will spike.

    We need widespread testing before we can even think about easing, not eliminating, social distancing.
    This.

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    Re: COVID-19 - Part 2

    The briefings are getting loooong. And later in the day. And BE ON TIME. Not showing up on time is always a bad look when trying to make a good impression. Beyond that and and moments of the the typical BS (Z-pack) and obligatory robotic blow hard bluster, it wasn't bad. Good actually and entertaining which bodes well for the President. Barr was solid. The military logistics guy isn't paid to be a public speaker, but left a good impression. He may not be a great public speaker, but he knows his job and his job is getting stuff. The President completely changed his tune on Asia and China. He didn't say "Chinese Virus". Not once. When asked why, he was firm in stating that he won't tolerate aggression against Asian Americans. Good for him. Let's see if he can keep it up. His track record says not.

    We may be done with Dr. Fauci unless the Twittter-sphere is on fire. Dr. Birx? Wow. She's sick (not Covid-19) and tired, medicated or both. She seemed high, in a good way. She and the President had a fun, light rapport. Perhaps when this calms down they will take their show on the road. Or not. As she was speaking towards the end, the President ushered everyone else off the stage and back to work. To this point, her exchanges with the President had been light, friendly, casual, almost playful. I got the sense that she realized, "OMG, I am on the stage ALONE with this man!" as she eased into her more professional character.

    The President (((may))) have figured out that he can keep his base happy (borders closed, thinking of opening the US for business) while using hints of reality and compassion to increase his support. He's showing signs of understanding that it is OK to not have all the answers and that we will know more in a week. He's moving closer to prime time and with no sports on TV has a platform that could mean BIG trouble for Biden/(obligatory Bernie?) who has been correctly silent during the crisis.
    Last edited by Darius; 03-24-2020 at 06:58 AM.
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    Re: COVID-19 - Part 2

    It is unconscionable that the Democrats are holding up a bill to help the American people with a wish list of unrelated things. Quotas for race and gender on corporate boards. Really!?!?!? Left wing lunacy!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by e.cat View Post
    It is unconscionable that the Democrats are holding up a bill to help the American people with a wish list of unrelated things. Quotas for race and gender on corporate boards. Really!?!?!? Left wing lunacy!!
    Left wing lunacy is needed to offset right wing lunacy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darius View Post
    The briefings are getting loooong. And later in the day. And BE ON TIME. Not showing up on time is always a bad look when trying to make a good impression. Beyond that and and moments of the the typical BS (Z-pack) and obligatory robotic blow hard bluster, it wasn't bad. Good actually and entertaining which bodes well for the President. Barr was solid. The military logistics guy isn't paid to be a public speaker, but left a good impression. He may not be a great public speaker, but he knows his job and his job is getting stuff. The President completely changed his tune on Asia and China. He didn't say "Chinese Virus". Not once. When asked why, he was firm in stating that he won't tolerate aggression against Asian Americans. Good for him. Let's see if he can keep it up. His track record says not.

    We may be done with Dr. Fauci unless the Twittter-sphere is on fire. Dr. Birx? Wow. She's sick (not Covid-19) and tired, medicated or both. She seemed high, in a good way. She and the President had a fun, light rapport. Perhaps when this calms down they will take their show on the road. Or not. As she was speaking towards the end, the President ushered everyone else off the stage and back to work. To this point, her exchanges with the President had been light, friendly, casual, almost playful. I got the sense that she realized, "OMG, I am on the stage ALONE with this man!" as she eased into her more professional character.

    The President (((may))) have figured out that he can keep his base happy (borders closed, thinking of opening the US for business) while using hints of reality and compassion to increase his support. He's showing signs of understanding that it is OK to not have all the answers and that we will know more in a week. He's moving closer to prime time and with no sports on TV has a platform that could mean BIG trouble for Biden/(obligatory Bernie?) who has been correctly silent during the crisis.
    Do let us know how his town hall goes today on Fox...

  19. #19
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    Re: COVID-19 - Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by HockeyRef View Post
    Do let us know how his town hall goes today on Fox...
    Really? Thanks.
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  20. #20
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    Re: COVID-19 - Part 2

    Since it's a hockey forum, thought I'd post the following from Facebook that was written by the coach of a girls junior team in North Carolina (a friend's daughter plays for him).

    So I am going all hockey coach on covid-19 here, indulge me.

    Team, we just finished the first period of this battle and we are getting our asses handed to us. Score wise, we already have more positive cases per-capita than China and we had a two-month head start, let that sink in for a second.

    Offensively (government and public) our first line (federal govít) got worked, you werenít prepared and didnít take it serious enough (lack of tests) and your effort was garbage to start off. Youíve got it in you, just dig in and find it, your last couple of shifts were better, now build off it. Hey captain stop saying stupid **** to the refs and be a leader.

    Second line (state governments) some of you are giving it all you've got (NY and Ohio) but some of you are mailing it in (Florida, looking at you and your beaches). All of you need to get your heads out your *** and get on the same page. Third line (supply chain, essential workers), you are our grind line, we got a lot to left to play the next two periods, be prepared and keep your head on a swivel. Fourth line (rest of the American public), you just donít get it for the most part, the rookies on the fourth line hitting Spring Break like scenes out of a 1980s frat movie. You are benched, you are out of this game, just sit down (on your couch at home) and support everyone who must win this one for us and if you do take a shift, donít do anything stupid, get your essential goods (medicine and groceries) and get off the ice.

    Defensively and goalies (healthcare workers and scientists) you didnít get much help out there from the forwards. You got creative getting the puck out (developing your own tests), you havenít panicked, and you are laying out blocking shots (risking your own infection) and putting it all on the line. If it wasnít for you, this one would be over early. Youíve given us a chance to win this oneÖ

    And win it we will, we know our roles, each one of us all, now go and execute, you are better than what you just showed that first period, 330 million of us united and Covid-19 doesn't stand a chance. Letís have at it and bury this virus!

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