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Has the gap between D1 and D3 closed?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Fishman'81 View Post
    I won't bother to look this up, but I'm fairly confident that the AHA has never garnered an AL bid...

    Just getting that lovely AQ every year.
    AHA had 2 teams in the tournament a few years ago. Can’t remember who earned the at-large, for some reason I think it was Niagara or Canisius.

    Edit: yep, in 2013 Niagara earned an at-large bid at 23-9-5
    Last edited by altazo; 03-16-2020, 02:52 PM.

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    • #32
      Re: Has the gap between D1 and D3 closed?

      Originally posted by altazo View Post
      AHA had 2 teams in the tournament a few years ago. Can’t remember who earned the at-large, for some reason I think it was Niagara or Canisius.

      Edit: yep, in 2013 Niagara earned an at-large bid at 23-9-5
      Huh.

      I remember them getting-in but I don't remember them being an AL. Good catch there.

      I was rooting for Niagara because I happened to meet NU head coach Dave Burkholder along the glass at Utica/Hobart when he was there to see his son play, right around then.

      We shot the bull for 2 periods. What an funny, humble and engaging man. I could watch hockey with him every weekend. That guy is seriously good people.

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      • #33
        Re: Has the gap between D1 and D3 closed?

        I don't think the gap has closed at all. I suspect if you ask this question on the Div I board, they don't think it's shrinking either...
        Steve
        Penn State Class of '95
        Plattsburgh State Class of '99

        If corn oil is made from corn, and vegetable oil is made from vegetables, then what is baby oil made from?

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        • #34
          Re: Has the gap between D1 and D3 closed?

          Originally posted by spwood View Post
          I don't think the gap has closed at all. I suspect if you ask this question on the Div I board, they don't think it's shrinking either...
          It's definitely shrunken some over the past 20 years. D-1 has expanded, and the talent been diluted as a result.

          Still, some of the bottom-ten D-1 teams *might* contend for the hardware in D-3... ( Or maybe not.)

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          • #35
            Re: Has the gap between D1 and D3 closed?

            Originally posted by Fishman'81 View Post
            It's definitely shrunken some over the past 20 years. D-1 has expanded, and the talent been diluted as a result.

            Still, some of the bottom-ten D-1 teams *might* contend for the hardware in D-3... ( Or maybe not.)
            Bottom 10 D1 teams would for sure compete for hardware in D3. They are way deeper. But the top 10 D3 teams could hold their own in the Atlantic

            Someone go on the D1 forum and propose this question. They will laugh at you

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            • #36
              Re: Has the gap between D1 and D3 closed?

              Originally posted by JSicedog View Post
              Bottom 10 D1 teams would for sure compete for hardware in D3. They are way deeper. But the top 10 D3 teams could hold their own in the Atlantic

              Someone go on the D1 forum and propose this question. They will laugh at you
              PART of this response (only part) would be a lack of knowledge of D3 hockey. While the gap probably hasn't closed, the gap in hockey, compared to every other sport (probably due to the lack of D2) is by far the smallest.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by JSicedog View Post
                Bottom 10 D1 teams would for sure compete for hardware in D3. They are way deeper. But the top 10 D3 teams could hold their own in the Atlantic

                Someone go on the D1 forum and propose this question. They will laugh at you
                Well I would hope they wouldn’t laugh at us!! The Question is hard to answer because there is not any overlap normally ,,, if they Were to laugh at the question I would ask them to look at this years scores against the U18 Development team. They are a team that plays to win each game,, and would love to humiliate older college teams . ND 3-1,, Wisconsin 3-2, Boston 4-3, Maine 2-0, Minn 1-2,,, Michigan 1-4, NDame 4-2,, Canisius 1-3,, Adrian 4-1,, Prov 2-1,,, These overlapping scores would suggest the gap has closed a bit. I guess they will always laugh at the lowly D3 teams

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                • #38
                  Re: Has the gap between D1 and D3 closed?

                  Originally posted by golightning77 View Post
                  Well I would hope they wouldn’t laugh at us!! The Question is hard to answer because there is not any overlap normally ,,, if they Were to laugh at the question I would ask them to look at this years scores against the U18 Development team. They are a team that plays to win each game,, and would love to humiliate older college teams . ND 3-1,, Wisconsin 3-2, Boston 4-3, Maine 2-0, Minn 1-2,,, Michigan 1-4, NDame 4-2,, Canisius 1-3,, Adrian 4-1,, Prov 2-1,,, These overlapping scores would suggest the gap has closed a bit. I guess they will always laugh at the lowly D3 teams
                  U18 team is not a good gauge because the roster for the Wisconsin game was likely completely different from the one that played Adrian. They tailor the roster to the level of team they are playing...
                  Steve
                  Penn State Class of '95
                  Plattsburgh State Class of '99

                  If corn oil is made from corn, and vegetable oil is made from vegetables, then what is baby oil made from?

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Has the gap between D1 and D3 closed?

                    Originally posted by spwood View Post
                    U18 team is not a good gauge because the roster for the Wisconsin game was likely completely different from the one that played Adrian. They tailor the roster to the level of team they are playing...
                    This is not true at all. Its always the same U18 NTDP team that plays against every college team, D1 or D3. A quick search shows it was the exact same roster for their games vs Wisconsin and Adrian.

                    Things do get tailored when it comes to their play in the USHL. But when it comes to the college games its strictly the 18s

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by JSicedog View Post
                      This is not true at all. Its always the same U18 NTDP team that plays against every college team, D1 or D3. A quick search shows it was the exact same roster for their games vs Wisconsin and Adrian.

                      Things do get tailored when it comes to their play in the USHL. But when it comes to the college games its strictly the 18s
                      Correct dog,,, Jake Sanderson looked and played exactly like Jake Sanderson. Adrian also traveled to Princeton last year and I didn’t see a difference in speed or skill and the Princeton team had two Hobey Baker hopefuls (which they did play) and had just made the NCAA tourney the previous year. So I’m not saying Utica, Norwich, etc (we know who the top 6 or 8 teams are) could play with all D1 teams but the gap has closed a bit and there are many good D3 players that will be playing in the ECHL next year and who knows , maybe a few get a shot at an AHL camp.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by spwood View Post
                        U18 team is not a good gauge because the roster for the Wisconsin game was likely completely different from the one that played Adrian. They tailor the roster to the level of team they are playing...
                        It was the same roster with the same starting forward group. Do better when throwing out claims you have no idea what you are talking about.


                        Game against University of Wisconsin:
                        LW 10 Matthew Beniers 0-0-0 2 C 7 Chase Yoder 0-0-0 1 RW 6 Brett Berard 0-0-0 3
                        LW 17 Luke Tuch 0-0-0 3 C 19 Landon Slaggert 0-1-1 0 RW 9 Thomas Bordeleau 2-0-2 4
                        LW 11 Hunter Strand 0-0-0 0 C 28 Ty Smilanic 0-1-1 0 RW 15 Dylan Peterson 0-0-0 1
                        LW 12 Hunter McKown 0-0-0 0 C 21 Zakary Karpa 0-0-0 0 RW 22 Tanner Latsch 0-0-0 1
                        LD 8 Jake Sanderson 0-0-0 1 RD 2 Eamon Powell 0-0-0 1 G 29 Drew Commesso DNP
                        LD 25 Tyler Kleven 0-0-0 0 RD 14 Brock Faber 0-0-0 1 G 30 Noah Grannan 0-0-0 0
                        LD 20 Jacob Truscott 0-2-2 0 RD 3 Owen Gallatin 0-0-0 4
                        XD 4 Daniel Laatsch 0-0-0 0 XD 16 Connor Kelley 0-0-0 1
                        XF 13 Daniyal Dzhaniyev 0-0-0 1



                        Game against Adrian College:
                        LW 10 Matthew Beniers 1-0-1 2 C 7 Chase Yoder 0-0-0 2 RW 6 Brett Berard 0-0-0 2
                        LW 17 Luke Tuch 0-0-0 1 C 9 Thomas Bordeleau 0-0-0 5 RW 19 Landon Slaggert 0-0-0 3
                        LW 11 Hunter Strand 0-0-0 3 C 28 Ty Smilanic 0-0-0 2 RW 15 Dylan Peterson 0-0-0 0
                        LW 12 Hunter McKown 0-0-0 0 C 21 Zakary Karpa 0-0-0 0 RW 22 Tanner Latsch 0-0-0 1
                        LD 8 Jake Sanderson 0-0-0 0 RD 2 Eamon Powell 0-0-0 2 G 1 Cullen DeYoung DNP
                        LD 20 Jacob Truscott 0-0-0 2 RD 14 Brock Faber 0-1-1 2 G 30 Noah Grannan 0-0-0 0
                        LD 3 Owen Gallatin 0-0-0 3 RD 16 Connor Kelley 0-0-0 0
                        XD 25 Tyler Kleven 0-0-0 2 XD 4 Daniel Laatsch 0-0-0 4
                        XF 13 Daniyal Dzhaniyev 0-0-0

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                        • #42
                          Re: Has the gap between D1 and D3 closed?

                          Originally posted by d3hockey57 View Post
                          It was the same roster with the same starting forward group. Do better when throwing out claims you have no idea what you are talking about.


                          Game against University of Wisconsin:
                          LW 10 Matthew Beniers 0-0-0 2 C 7 Chase Yoder 0-0-0 1 RW 6 Brett Berard 0-0-0 3
                          LW 17 Luke Tuch 0-0-0 3 C 19 Landon Slaggert 0-1-1 0 RW 9 Thomas Bordeleau 2-0-2 4
                          LW 11 Hunter Strand 0-0-0 0 C 28 Ty Smilanic 0-1-1 0 RW 15 Dylan Peterson 0-0-0 1
                          LW 12 Hunter McKown 0-0-0 0 C 21 Zakary Karpa 0-0-0 0 RW 22 Tanner Latsch 0-0-0 1
                          LD 8 Jake Sanderson 0-0-0 1 RD 2 Eamon Powell 0-0-0 1 G 29 Drew Commesso DNP
                          LD 25 Tyler Kleven 0-0-0 0 RD 14 Brock Faber 0-0-0 1 G 30 Noah Grannan 0-0-0 0
                          LD 20 Jacob Truscott 0-2-2 0 RD 3 Owen Gallatin 0-0-0 4
                          XD 4 Daniel Laatsch 0-0-0 0 XD 16 Connor Kelley 0-0-0 1
                          XF 13 Daniyal Dzhaniyev 0-0-0 1



                          Game against Adrian College:
                          LW 10 Matthew Beniers 1-0-1 2 C 7 Chase Yoder 0-0-0 2 RW 6 Brett Berard 0-0-0 2
                          LW 17 Luke Tuch 0-0-0 1 C 9 Thomas Bordeleau 0-0-0 5 RW 19 Landon Slaggert 0-0-0 3
                          LW 11 Hunter Strand 0-0-0 3 C 28 Ty Smilanic 0-0-0 2 RW 15 Dylan Peterson 0-0-0 0
                          LW 12 Hunter McKown 0-0-0 0 C 21 Zakary Karpa 0-0-0 0 RW 22 Tanner Latsch 0-0-0 1
                          LD 8 Jake Sanderson 0-0-0 0 RD 2 Eamon Powell 0-0-0 2 G 1 Cullen DeYoung DNP
                          LD 20 Jacob Truscott 0-0-0 2 RD 14 Brock Faber 0-1-1 2 G 30 Noah Grannan 0-0-0 0
                          LD 3 Owen Gallatin 0-0-0 3 RD 16 Connor Kelley 0-0-0 0
                          XD 25 Tyler Kleven 0-0-0 2 XD 4 Daniel Laatsch 0-0-0 4
                          XF 13 Daniyal Dzhaniyev 0-0-0
                          Busted......stone cold...

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                          • #43
                            Re: Has the gap between D1 and D3 closed?

                            Back when I was playing (I hate using that phrase) in the early 00’s, about half of the guys on my DIII (NESCAC) team had at least some interest from DI programs prior to going to college and most ended up playing DIII because they didn’t want to play multiple years of juniors. It definitely wasn’t uncommon back then for the top of DIII to be able to compete with the low end of DI, especially the MAAC/Atlantic Hockey teams which were less than a decade from being DIII themselves.

                            However, I’d agree with others that have said the gap has widened over the intervening years. First off, the bottom of DI has gotten better simply by being in that competitive arena. Second, look at all the guys who show up as 20/21 year old Freshman in DI after multiple years of playing juniors. Back 15-20 years ago, those guys played DIII. Being a 20/21 year old Freshman simply wasn’t as common back then.

                            From personal experience, I had a couple solid DI offers (small partial scholarship, not full, mid to lower tier ECAC teams) that were contingent upon me playing juniors after three years at prep school. At the time, my dad was against it and he was paying the bills so that was that, though if I had fought for it hard I might’ve been able to convince him. In today’s environment I’d have gone to the USHL and played DI. Also, at the time the USHL and NAHL were on pretty equal footing, the USHL was beginning to pull away but the gap wasn’t nearly what it is today. Was I “good enough” to play DI? Yes. Would I have been a difference-maker? Probably not, though who knows what extra development time and coaching could have done. But looking at my life today, I’m probably better off that I went where I did.

                            To sum up, that is why the gap between DIII and DI has widened, primarily because many of the older DI players you see today would’ve played DIII back in the day.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by shooter27 View Post
                              Back when I was playing (I hate using that phrase) in the early 00’s, about half of the guys on my DIII (NESCAC) team had at least some interest from DI programs prior to going to college and most ended up playing DIII because they didn’t want to play multiple years of juniors. It definitely wasn’t uncommon back then for the top of DIII to be able to compete with the low end of DI, especially the MAAC/Atlantic Hockey teams which were less than a decade from being DIII themselves.

                              However, I’d agree with others that have said the gap has widened over the intervening years. First off, the bottom of DI has gotten better simply by being in that competitive arena. Second, look at all the guys who show up as 20/21 year old Freshman in DI after multiple years of playing juniors. Back 15-20 years ago, those guys played DIII. Being a 20/21 year old Freshman simply wasn’t as common back then.

                              From personal experience, I had a couple solid DI offers (small partial scholarship, not full, mid to lower tier ECAC teams) that were contingent upon me playing juniors after three years at prep school. At the time, my dad was against it and he was paying the bills so that was that, though if I had fought for it hard I might’ve been able to convince him. In today’s environment I’d have gone to the USHL and played DI. Also, at the time the USHL and NAHL were on pretty equal footing, the USHL was beginning to pull away but the gap wasn’t nearly what it is today. Was I “good enough” to play DI? Yes. Would I have been a difference-maker? Probably not, though who knows what extra development time and coaching could have done. But looking at my life today, I’m probably better off that I went where I did.

                              To sum up, that is why the gap between DIII and DI has widened, primarily because many of the older DI players you see today would’ve played DIII back in the day.
                              You just explained why the gap has shrunk. Nowadays, unless your an NHL prospect, everybody plays juniors until they are 19-20, whether its D1 or D3. There are probably 75-100 players at both the D1 and D3 level who are interchangeable. It boils down to who gets hot in their last year of Juniors vs those who had mediocre years. The gap between the top 10 d3 teams and bottom 10 d1 teams is minimal

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                              • #45
                                Re: Has the gap between D1 and D3 closed?

                                I know you are all experts in DIII hockey but spwood is (was) correct. For many years the US18 team would play different lineups vs DI / DIII teams. Believe me the DI board members let us know about it when it was brought up (because it was several times - especially when SNC tied the almighty)

                                Having said that, I have noticed more so recently that the rosters do NOT change much, as was pointed out.

                                I compiled all of Plattsburghs records vs DI teams (not current DI who were DIII ala RIT, Niagara, Canisius).

                                Alaska Anchorage 1 2 0
                                Alaska Fairbank 0 2 0
                                Army 2 6 0
                                Boston College 0 1 0
                                Clarkson 1 4 0
                                Colgate 1 5 0
                                Cornell 0 1 0
                                Maine 0 1 0
                                Mankato State 1 0 0
                                UMASS Lowell 2 4 0
                                New Hampshire 0 0 1
                                Notre Dame 2 0
                                Princeton 0 2 0
                                Providence 1 0 0
                                RPI 0 2 0
                                St. Lawrence 0 5 1
                                Vermont 3 4 0
                                14 39 2


                                Funny thing is we say how "close" it was back in the day. In 1987 (arguably Plattsburghs best team (and one of DIIIs best) the Cardinals best Alaska Anchorage 5-4 but then lost the next night 13-3. They also got killed by Fairbanks too that year. In 1992 (another Championship year) they played at Clarkson. I remember it being somewhat close for a few but Clarkson ended up winning 8-2 I want to say. In those years Plattsburgh was one of the best DIII programs and were getting slaughtered.

                                Now fast forward to recent years vs US18 teams (not bad).

                                A St.Norbert team (who lost in their Conference Finals - no NCAA year) tied Wisconsin in the 14-15 season (we think). But it was also a 4 win Wisconsin team.

                                RIT also lost to Oswego their first year DI. I know "first year", but RIT was having close games versus established DI schools (winning a few) that same year.

                                So not sure I would say the gap had widened. I dont think anyone is saying Norwich is competing for an ECAC DI title, let alone a Hockey East of Big10 title. But I could see as constructed right now a team like Utica, Norwich, Geneseo, UWSP all middle of the pack to maybe top 1/3 in like the AHA and giving competitive games to many others (2-3 goal losses).
                                Remy Babineaux
                                remyb616@gmail.com
                                D3FHL Web Page

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