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Democratic Challengers 10: If we stop fighting Nazis, the world will die.

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  • Re: Democratic Challengers 10: If we stop fighting Nazis, the world will die.

    Originally posted by Deutsche Gopher Fan View Post
    Single payer is a net savings, but crying about taxes is the lazy way to argue about it.

    I also like when people whine about wait times, not acknowledging that wait times In our current system are bad
    Case in point - the last time I went to the doctor's office, I had a 4pm appointment and dutifully showed up 10 minutes early. I was taken back 20-25 minutes after the appointment time, and not seen by the doctor until quarter to 5.

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    • Re: Democratic Challengers 10: If we stop fighting Nazis, the world will die.

      Originally posted by Rover View Post
      JD has a point though. With M4A, its important not to overpromise because the opposition party is 100% butthurt Nazis who will try to exploit any issue to attain power and then will reverse it the first chance they get.

      The ACA is currently more popular than its ever been, maybe 55-37 in a recent poll. Think of the long, hard decade long struggle to get to that point. Part of the problem was a succinct but unattainable promise (if you like your doctor you can keep your doctor) that wasn't possible to deliver on.

      M4A would not only need a successful implementation but it can't hand out promises such as tica's situation that its not meant to deliver on. Dems also need to be prepared to do a better job selling the benefits post implementation than they did after the ACA got up and running.
      All changes will face sabotage by those with a vested interest in seeing them fail. And of course the particular political opposition we face is spectacular in its disregard for the truth and the public welfare. So sure, we have to be mindful of that.

      But you don't just give your lunch money to the playground bully because you know otherwise he'll try to beat you up. You get ten friends to circle him and then say, "try it."
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      • Re: Democratic Challengers 10: If we stop fighting Nazis, the world will die.

        Originally posted by J.D. View Post
        What makes you think universal care is where we will end up? Bernie wins, gets it implemented, the nation is united and falls in love with it, Republicans too or they never win another election. Seems like a stretch to conclude that.
        Well, when Republicans held all three levers of government, they still failed to get rid of the ACA, which is obviously far from universal healthcare, but much closer than what we had before. One of the many reasons it failed (besides John McCain's 'thumbs down' moment) was that it became popular among the majority of Americans. Once people receive something like basic healthcare from the federal government, it becomes almost impossible to take it away from them. I think if we even got the "Medicare For Those Who Want It" passed through some kind of budget reconciliation bill, assuming Democrats win the WH, retake the Senate (small chance) and choose not to abolish the filibuster, and hold the House, that it would be here to stay on our path to universal healthcare. Obviously, universal healthcare can be, and has been, achieved without making it single-payer or 100% government controlled.

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        • Re: Democratic Challengers 10: If we stop fighting Nazis, the world will die.

          Originally posted by Kepler View Post
          There are more than 20 studies which show single payer is a net savings for Americans over the current system. Cost is a perception problem, not a real problem.

          Now, we live in a country where a large percentage of the public doesn't believe in climate science, so the actual facts aren't going to matter. Sanders does need a way to answer those questions that do not make him appear to be fudging. He has a ready answer in the actual math but I can understand he is hesitant about turning this into another arena for the Republicans to blat their anti-intellectualism and the media to gleefully set it up as a tennis match.

          I think that's the ultimate best way to deal with it, though. It will at least get all the Dems on board and shut down the opportunists like Carville.
          he knows what M4A will cost, and has a plan to pay for that with a new tax. He doesn't know if his "tax wallstreet" plan will bring in enough for his other high-cost proposals like free college tuition, paid family leave, universal head-start, or whatever else he is proposing

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          • Originally posted by Rover View Post
            How would M4A change that though? You'd still be dealing with wait times as that's a problem with the availability of care, not in having insurance.
            I'm not looking for M4A to solve it. I'm saying we already have wait times in our current system. Trying to scare us with horror stories about wait times under M4A is pointless.

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            • Re: Democratic Challengers 10: If we stop fighting Nazis, the world will die.

              Originally posted by ticapnews View Post
              I'm not looking for M4A to solve it. I'm saying we already have wait times in our current system. Trying to scare us with horror stories about wait times under M4A is pointless.
              "Do you realize that under M4A people will still die of old age! Surely you don't advocate that, Senator?"
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              • Re: Democratic Challengers 10: If we stop fighting Nazis, the world will die.

                Originally posted by ticapnews View Post
                and how he will pay for them
                he said he doesn't know for sure if his "tax on wall street speculation" will pay for free college tuition

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                • Re: Democratic Challengers 10: If we stop fighting Nazis, the world will die.

                  Originally posted by ticapnews View Post
                  I'm not looking for M4A to solve it. I'm saying we already have wait times in our current system. Trying to scare us with horror stories about wait times under M4A is pointless.
                  is his M4A going to increase reimbursement rates? We have the problem now where rural hospitals are going under because the majority of their clients are medicare/medicaid and the reimbursement rates are not high enough to keep the lights on

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                  • Re: Democratic Challengers 10: If we stop fighting Nazis, the world will die.

                    Anyway, I mailed my ballot this morning. Not that it's likely to matter, the way things are looking.

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                    • Re: Democratic Challengers 10: If we stop fighting Nazis, the world will die.

                      Bernie has cleverly hidden details about his plans on his public website and advertised it heavily. The sneak. However, I have hacked the firewall surrounding the information and present it to you here:

                      FB-IMG-1582645570753

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                      • Re: Democratic Challengers 10: If we stop fighting Nazis, the world will die.

                        Originally posted by BassAle View Post
                        is his M4A going to increase reimbursement rates? We have the problem now where rural hospitals are going under because the majority of their clients are medicare/medicaid and the reimbursement rates are not high enough to keep the lights on
                        While true, rural hospitals are closing faster in states where Medicaid under the ACA wasn't expanded, and hospitals in those states have even offered to foot some of the 10% bill alongside the state government to get it expanded. Something is better than nothing.

                        https://www.vo*****/policy-and-polit...pansion-states

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                        • Re: Democratic Challengers 10: If we stop fighting Nazis, the world will die.

                          Originally posted by FadeToBlack&Gold View Post
                          Case in point - the last time I went to the doctor's office, I had a 4pm appointment and dutifully showed up 10 minutes early. I was taken back 20-25 minutes after the appointment time, and not seen by the doctor until quarter to 5.
                          that's not what they mean by "wait times", they're talking about how far out you need to schedule an appointment to see a specialist or have imaging done (which can be 3-6 months)

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                          • Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                            "Do you realize that under M4A people will still die of old age! Surely you don't advocate that, Senator?"
                            "Under my plan we'll fund medical research into immortality. Unlike Bloomberg's plan, which is to simply deny care to old people."

                            (Not making the last part up. You can find video of him saying that)

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                            • Re: Democratic Challengers 10: If we stop fighting Nazis, the world will die.

                              Originally posted by ticapnews View Post
                              Bernie has cleverly hidden details about his plans on his public website and advertised it heavily. The sneak. However, I have hacked the firewall surrounding the information and present it to you here:

                              FB-IMG-1582645570753
                              yes, we know he released this information. But when asked recently in an interview if his proposed taxes would raise enough money to cover these programs his answer was basically "I don't know". That answer is a problem, and that's why I said he needs to get his **** together. He should have been able to say something like "free college tuition will cost $X and our studies show that a wall street speculation tax would bring in a minimum of $XX". He can't just **** up the interview and then throw this up on his website when most people will just remember what he said during the interview and won't seek this information out.

                              by the way, I used the Bernie tax plan calculator, and I'm going to be paying more. I'll have thousands less in take-home pay. I'm still okay voting for him, especially over Trump.
                              Last edited by BassAle; 02-25-2020, 09:59 AM.

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                              • Re: Democratic Challengers 10: If we stop fighting Nazis, the world will die.

                                Originally posted by BassAle View Post
                                that's not what they mean by "wait times", they're talking about how far out you need to schedule an appointment to see a specialist or have imaging done (which can be 3-6 months)
                                Yes, I realize that now. So to further add, my doctor requires a 6 month lead time to schedule an annual physical.

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