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2020 Patty Kazmaier

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  • #76
    Re: 2020 Patty Kazmaier

    Originally posted by FiveHoleFrenzy View Post

    Watts was awesome defensively on the short handed goal by UMD Sunday.
    There were two goals on Sunday when Watts' defense was far less than stellar.

    But Tim didn't phrase his post in terms of effectiveness; rather, he said "...lack of effort backchecking or being lazy in the D zone. "

    As I said, Any minute now, we'll be moving on to everyone's favorite, 'plus/minus'.

    :-)

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    • #77
      Re: 2020 Patty Kazmaier

      Originally posted by robertearle View Post
      (When you are talking about two players from the same team - barring injury - doesn't 'points per game' and 'total points' tell you the same thing?)
      Not necessarily, because of injury/illness, national team duties, etc.). In this case, Watts leads all players in PPG (and also total points, but that is the one where other NCAA players have played far fewer games.) This is in the context of you pointing out that Roque leads the WCHA in faceoff wins.
      "... And lose, and start again at your beginnings
      And never breathe a word about your loss;" -- Rudyard Kipling

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      • #78
        Re: 2020 Patty Kazmaier

        "This is in the context of you pointing out that Roque leads the WCHA in faceoff wins."

        And faceoff wins are certainly more than a strictly offensive stat.

        Any minute now, we'll be moving on to everyone's favorite, 'plus/minus'.

        :-)

        Comment


        • #79
          [QUOTE=robertearle;6909234]"This is in the context of you pointing out that Roque leads the WCHA in faceoff wins."

          And faceoff wins are certainly more than a strictly offensive stat.

          Any minute now, we'll be moving on to everyone's favorite, 'plus/minus'.

          :-)[/QUOTE

          Lots of nice analytical arguments being made on behalf of players. I don't see Giguere getting it, to much Clarkson recently. I do not see Watts getting it because of the transfer factor. If she repeats these stats or close next year I can see her winning next year. This year will be a surprise.

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          • #80
            Re: 2020 Patty Kazmaier

            Originally posted by robertearle View Post
            There were two goals on Sunday when Watts' defense was far less than stellar.

            But Tim didn't phrase his post in terms of effectiveness; rather, he said "...lack of effort backchecking or being lazy in the D zone. "
            I agree that it's safe to say UMD goals #2 and #4 don't cast Watts in the best light. Both looked like something right out of BC game footage. In both, she's in position, and then just quits on the play.

            Here is my question, and I don't think it factors into the Kazmaier decision either now or at any point in the past. We talk about players being "competitors" all the time, but if you put any number of UW players over the years in the same position -- Bauer, Lawler, Duggan, Decker, Clarke -- they might still get beat and give up a goal, but they're at least going to go down trying. Watts, like so many natural scorers, just doesn't demonstrate the same natural ability for defending that she does for scoring. She's there, but she doesn't know what to do. Put her in the offensive end with the puck on her stick, and then she knows what to do. Would Badger fans rather have Roque standing in the crease before goal #2 and defending the shooter before goal #4? I would, but you watch them far more and are better informed.

            And I don't mean to pick on Watts specifically. Minnesota fans would much rather have Heise in a position like that trying to prevent a goal than Zumwinkle. Centers are often more defensively aware.
            "... And lose, and start again at your beginnings
            And never breathe a word about your loss;" -- Rudyard Kipling

            Comment


            • #81
              Re: 2020 Patty Kazmaier

              Originally posted by FiveHoleFrenzy View Post
              Watts was awesome defensively on the short handed goal Sunday
              I can only comment on Watt I have seen live and in person. I'm sure she has some defensive warts, all players do to some extent, right?
              Wisconsin Hockey: 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11 WE WANT MORE!
              ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              Come to the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod
              ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              Originally Posted by Wisko McBadgerton:
              "Baggot says Hughes and Rockwood are centering the top two lines...
              Timothy A --> Great hockey mind... Or Greatest hockey mind?!?"

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              • #82
                Re: 2020 Patty Kazmaier

                Originally posted by ARM View Post
                ... and then just quits on the play.... Would Badger fans rather have Roque standing in the crease before goal #2 and defending the shooter before goal #4? I would, but you watch them far more and are better informed.
                I don't think I'd say she 'quit' on the plays, at least in terms of effort. More made mistakes of inaction because of the 'lack of instinct' as to what to do in the moment, as you mention.

                Watts logs a lot of time on the penalty kill; I assume that is because of her puck handling skills.

                And slowly but surely, we're getting closer and closer to 'plus-minus'. I'm tellin' ya!

                ------------------

                Adding, and anticipating how the plus-minus discussion will go, I'm wishing for something like a "plus/minus per ice minute over team average".

                Where's the SABRmetric web site for DI women's hockey when you need it?
                Last edited by robertearle; 02-25-2020, 07:04 PM.

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                • #83
                  Re: 2020 Patty Kazmaier

                  Originally posted by robertearle View Post
                  .....
                  And slowly but surely, we're getting closer and closer to 'plus-minus'. I'm tellin' ya!
                  .....

                  Mueller +52-10=+42
                  Fillier +49-8=+41
                  Giguere +52-13=+39
                  Bourbonnais +41-4=+37
                  Roque +61-25=+36
                  Shirley +58-25=+35
                  Watts +59-27=+32
                  Maltais +56-32=+24

                  So the Patty Kaz goes to Mueller .
                  Last edited by vicb; 02-25-2020, 09:54 PM.
                  Fan of CLARKSON: 2014, 2017 & 2018 NC$$ WOMEN'S DIV 1 HOCKEY NATIONAL CHAMPIONS *******https://fanforum.uscho.com/core/images/smilies/smile.gi*********
                  And of 3 Patty Kaz recepients: Jamie Lee Rattray, Loren Gabel and Elizabeth Giguere
                  WHOOOOOOOOO WHOOOOOOOOO
                  If Union Can Do It So Can CCT (One of These Years) *******https://fanforum.uscho.com/core/images/smilies/smile.gi*********

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                  • #84
                    Re: 2020 Patty Kazmaier

                    Originally posted by Reddington View Post
                    Lots of nice analytical arguments being made on behalf of players.
                    This is why the Patty Kaz thread is always great for us onlookers - - - this and the fact that it’s really the only time in the women’s game when the gloves come off, sort of.

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                    • #85
                      Re: 2020 Patty Kazmaier

                      Originally posted by Reddington View Post
                      I don't see Giguere getting it, to much Clarkson recently. I do not see Watts getting it because of the transfer factor. If she repeats these stats or close next year I can see her winning next year. This year will be a surprise.
                      Not much analytics there, but a very interesting take, good things to talk about. Giguere and Watts are in the same class, so we'll have the same discussion next year as well. One gets it this year, the other will get it next year. I can see Watts getting it this year and then next year Giguere gets it as a lifetime achievement award like Coyne did in 2016 when clearly ARD or Carpenter (had 4 more pts than Coyne) should have won.

                      One other thing to consider is all the intangibles that go into this besides scoring, and since Watts has already demonstrated she has that covered plus the scoring she has to have a leg up since she already won once. Who were her linemates @ BC when she put up 82? Lonergan (75) and Newkirk (61)?

                      When she won in 17-18 here's how the points were: Watts 82 Lonergan 75 Gabel 75 Giguere 71

                      I think a 10 point gap from Watts to Giguere is too much to overcome. What has been the biggest point gap between the high scorer and a non-goalie winner?

                      Here's Watts this award is all about:

                      An award of The USA Hockey Foundation, the Patty Kazmaier Memorial Award was established in 1998 and is presented annually to the top player in NCAA Division I women’s ice hockey. Other selection criteria include outstanding individual and team skills, sportsmanship, performance in the clutch, personal character, competitiveness and a love of hockey. Consideration is also given to academic achievement and civic involvement.
                      Wisconsin Hockey: 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11 WE WANT MORE!
                      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      Come to the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod
                      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      Originally Posted by Wisko McBadgerton:
                      "Baggot says Hughes and Rockwood are centering the top two lines...
                      Timothy A --> Great hockey mind... Or Greatest hockey mind?!?"

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Re: 2020 Patty Kazmaier

                        I will thrown in Mueller of Northeastern into the mix .
                        You can make a compelling case for either of these 3. There are statistics and then there are statisics that say what you want them to say.

                        I would have no issue with either of these 3 winning. Since I don't get a vote and nothing anyone says on this board should sway the voters opinion, it doesn't matter what we think.

                        An award of The USA Hockey Foundation, the Patty Kazmaier Memorial Award was established in 1998 and is presented annually to the top player in NCAA Division I women’s ice hockey. Other selection criteria include

                        outstanding individual
                        ----Goals
                        ------Giguere 35 G/SOG .154
                        ------Watts 24 G/SOG .149
                        ------Mueller 23 G/SOG .126

                        and team skills,
                        ----Assists
                        ------Watts 49 (Plays with line mates that have scored 53 goals and are Patty Kaz top 10)
                        ------Mueller 34 (Plays all year with Aurard/Fontaine 33 Goals)
                        ------Giguere 28 (Due to Clarkson injuries has not played all year with the same linemates, Currently plays with Stoddard Jr (5G Career prior to this year) and McQuigg Fr 8 goals)

                        ----PP Assists
                        ------Watts 19
                        ------Giguere 11
                        ------Mueller 11

                        ----Penalty Kill
                        ------Giguere plays on the Clarkson #1 PK unit
                        ------Watts?
                        ------Mueller?

                        ----Plus/Minus (Got to include that )
                        ------Mueller +52-10=+42
                        ------Giguere +52-13=+39
                        ------Watts +59-27=+32

                        sportsmanship,
                        ----Watts 2 Penalties
                        ----Giguere 5 penalties
                        ----Mueller 5 Penalties

                        performance in the clutch,
                        ----Giguere 3 Shorties, 10 GWG,
                        ----Mueller 3 Shorties, 9 GWG
                        ----Watts 1 Shortie, 2 GWG

                        personal character,
                        ----Giguere loses Patty Kaz Gabel and stays at CCT
                        ----Mueller has no reason to leave Northeastern and does not
                        ----Watts bails on BC after a sophomore year that her point total is 48 vs 82 previous year and BC fails to make FF


                        competitiveness and a love of hockey
                        ----Watts wants a Natty and does not see it happening @ BC and bails on BC after a sophomore year that her point total is 48 vs 82
                        ----Giguere loses Patty Kaz Gabel and stays at CCT
                        ----Mueller has no reason to leave Northeastern and does not

                        Consideration is also given to academic achievement and civic involvement.
                        ----No clue here but based on past, stats are what matters.
                        Last edited by vicb; 02-26-2020, 08:27 AM.
                        Fan of CLARKSON: 2014, 2017 & 2018 NC$$ WOMEN'S DIV 1 HOCKEY NATIONAL CHAMPIONS *******https://fanforum.uscho.com/core/images/smilies/smile.gi*********
                        And of 3 Patty Kaz recepients: Jamie Lee Rattray, Loren Gabel and Elizabeth Giguere
                        WHOOOOOOOOO WHOOOOOOOOO
                        If Union Can Do It So Can CCT (One of These Years) *******https://fanforum.uscho.com/core/images/smilies/smile.gi*********

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by vicb View Post

                          Mueller +52-10=+42
                          Fillier +49-8=+41
                          Giguere +52-13=+39
                          Bourbonnais +41-4=+37
                          Roque +61-25=+36
                          Shirley +58-25=+35
                          Watts +59-27=+32
                          Maltais +56-32=+24

                          So the Patty Kaz goes to Mueller .
                          Did Gebhardt not get nominated or is she just not being listed above because she has had a very good year also.
                          ?

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Re: 2020 Patty Kazmaier

                            Originally posted by Reddington View Post
                            Did Gebhardt not get nominated or is she just not being listed above because she has had a very good year also.
                            ?
                            She (surprisingly to me) did not make the top 10.
                            Fan of CLARKSON: 2014, 2017 & 2018 NC$$ WOMEN'S DIV 1 HOCKEY NATIONAL CHAMPIONS *******https://fanforum.uscho.com/core/images/smilies/smile.gi*********
                            And of 3 Patty Kaz recepients: Jamie Lee Rattray, Loren Gabel and Elizabeth Giguere
                            WHOOOOOOOOO WHOOOOOOOOO
                            If Union Can Do It So Can CCT (One of These Years) *******https://fanforum.uscho.com/core/images/smilies/smile.gi*********

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Re: 2020 Patty Kazmaier

                              Originally posted by Timothy A View Post
                              I can see Watts getting it this year and then next year Giguere gets it as a lifetime achievement award like Coyne did in 2016 when clearly ARD or Carpenter (had 4 more pts than Coyne) should have won.
                              Carpenter had 4 more points in 4 more games, so Coyne had the higher scoring average. The argument for Carpenter would have been that BC was having a perfect season. Coyne was leading Northeastern to its first NCAA tournament, and doing it with a lot less help than Carpenter had. By the time players are seniors, there are more committee members that have coached against them or at least gotten to watch them play somewhere, like a national team if nothing else. Coyne was electrifying, both with her speed and what she could accomplish at top speed. Brandt was also a senior that year, and had she been healthy, maybe the entirety of her career might have come into play in her candidacy (285 pts despite being hampered her senior year), but she didn't have a big enough season to realistically contend. I was on the committee in 2016, and I don't remember the conversation being in doubt. The neutral Hockey East and ECAC coaches thought she was the best player, and based on what she has done with the national team, I think that reputation was deserved.


                              Originally posted by vicb View Post
                              performance in the clutch,
                              I think this is where Giguere's career achievement really enters into it. On the biggest college stage, she's played in five NCAA Tournament games. Her team was shut out in the fifth, but the first four were OT wins for the Golden Knights, and she scored three of the sudden-death goals and made the play to set up the fourth. I don't remember anyone else coming close to something like that in a career, let alone her first two years. It is similar to what Jessie Vetter did in the NCAA Tournament in her career at the other end of the nice. I get that it isn't from this season, but it goes a long way to cementing Giguere's reputation as a clutch player.
                              "... And lose, and start again at your beginnings
                              And never breathe a word about your loss;" -- Rudyard Kipling

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Re: 2020 Patty Kazmaier

                                Originally posted by vicb View Post
                                Consideration is also given to academic achievement and civic involvement.
                                ----No clue here but based on past, stats are what matters.
                                FWIW the Patty Kaz announcement gives civic involvement examples as well as majors & GPAs: https://www.pattykaz.com/news_article/show/1087326
                                Grant Salzano, Boston College '10
                                Writer Emeritus, BC Interruption
                                Twitter: @Salzano14


                                Click here for the BC Interruption Pairwise, KRACH, and GRaNT Calculators

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