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Thread: UNH Hockey: Treading Water or Trending Upward

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    UNH Hockey: Treading Water or Trending Upward

    That’s the million dollar, second half question...

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    Re: UNH Hockey: Treading Water or Trending Upward

    Dunno about thread question, but I do know that I am the happy recipient of free tickets to the Brown and UMass-Flagship games at the Whitt come January, a reward for my inconvenience this past Friday night. :-)

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    Re: UNH Hockey: Treading Water or Trending Upward

    Quote Originally Posted by Snively65 View Post
    Dunno about thread question, but I do know that I am the happy recipient of free tickets to the Brown and UMass-Flagship games at the Whitt come January, a reward for my inconvenience this past Friday night. :-)
    Awesome! Do you plan to travel to the Army game? Hotel booked tix in the near future (or will prob buy at the door). As per the thread q (which is a legit q!!) hoping it's true their 'best hockey is to come'. Am excited to see what the 'Cats put together; I believe they are more than capable of making some noise if they play their game. Guess we'll find out! Go 'Cats!!
    Let's Go SouzaCats!

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    Re: UNH Hockey: Treading Water or Trending Upward

    Missed a trick not going with "Ready to Rock and Roll Part II" as the thread title given the goal song
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    Re: UNH Hockey: Treading Water or Trending Upward

    Just watched the Yale v Maine game...thinking we will have a good battle in Durham when the Bulldogs visit!! Game was penalty city; 11 called in the 3rd alone... Go 'Cats!
    Let's Go SouzaCats!

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    Quote Originally Posted by HockeyRef View Post
    Just watched the Yale v Maine game...thinking we will have a good battle in Durham when the Bulldogs visit!! Game was penalty city; 11 called in the 3rd alone... Go 'Cats!
    Will need to soften up the Whitt ice in time for the Bull Dogs, then harden it for the Brown Bears the next night.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ClOuD 9 View Post
    Missed a trick not going with "Ready to Rock and Roll Part II" as the thread title given the goal song
    Great point. That stated, with our lack of goal scoring, that might have been presumptuous!!

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    Re: UNH Hockey: Treading Water or Trending Upward

    Trending upwards at this moment, no doubt. But considering what that's being measured against - the last 3 years of Coach Umile's Long Goodbye, How Can We Miss You When You Won't Leave tour of duty, plus a very shaky start to MS7's reign last Fall - that's admittedly a very low bar to have to clear.

    But it was a necessary bar to clear. There are plenty of examples of programs who fell to the depths of where UNH has been emerging from over the last year or so, who got mired in that losing program mentality, or are still mired in it after many, many years. String together a few more of those on top of the tail end of the Umile Era, and you've got yourself in a world of hurt. Too many people are too young, too new, or too short-sighted to remember far enough back when UNH was a top tier program with D-1 title aspirations for good chunks of the '90's and the '00's as it is. The further you get away from those things, the harder it is for the program to draw on those past glories. Frankly, to a large degree, those attachments are already functionally limited. Sadly, that's the price you pay for never quite getting there. And even for the program up in the Downeast, who did get there (once or twice*), you can see the same gradual slide away from relevance as they've gotten further and further removed from those heights.

    Rebuilding is rarely a straight line process, and especially so in college sports. Digging out from the shambles that were the final months of the Umile Era with a strong finish last season was critical. Someday we may look back at that (this?) and realize just how important it was to get the "last place stank" off the program as quickly as possible, and point to it as a "fluke" instead of a "typical" UNH experience. We had some spirited debates on here over the last few seasons on the pros and cons of the long transition plan to MS7, and I think it's fair to say the "cons" were proven more accurate than not as to the impact on the program during those final Umile Era seasons. The only "saving grace" left for those who favored the plan is if MS7 proves to be worth the effort to kick three seasons to the curb in a sacrifice to get him on board, prep him, and have him hit the ground running.

    As someone who was much more of a "con" than a "pro" for the Umile/BS35+9 plan to gradually shift to MS7, I've always said that for the plan to be vindicated, MS7 needs to knock it out of the park. So far, especially since this time last season, MS7 has done what he needed to do to advance things as far as he could reasonably have been expected to under the totality of the circumstances, and for that he's earned my willingness to be patient and trust him to see what the next year brings for his program. And even if it turns out to be a "treading water" thing … at this point, a .500 season isn't the end of the world, all things considered. Frankly, it may be the most realistic outcome. Might they exceed that? Sure, and I sure do hope so. Might they fall just short? Yeah, that's possible too.

    What UNH cannot afford at this juncture is for the program to tank over the next 90 days like they did in early 2018, or for that matter over the entire 2018 calendar year. MS7's blessing is that his measuring stick - for those who dismiss his impact as a 3 year assistant during the lead-up - is that low water mark, and he's done enough to exceed that … so far. The quality of the players coming to UNH seems to be gradually trending upwards, and that's a good sign. Hopefully MS7's coaching team is collectively going to be able to get these guys coached up while they're here, and that will be what makes or breaks the current regime long-term.

    The jury is still out, but so far I'm encouraged enough to give MS7 and his guys a legitimate vote of confidence - not to be confused with the vacuous ones that ordinarily come a few days before a pro coach gets axed.

    Keep up the good work, MS7. GO UNH!!! JMHO
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    Re: UNH Hockey: Treading Water or Trending Upward

    Fresh (somewhat) topic, regardless of last weekend’s results, for y’all to chew on and likely disagree with...

    Barstool sports produces a hockey podcast called Spittin’ Chiclets. Regardless of your stance on Barstool Sports you should give this episode, or parts of it, a listen - Episode 224. They interview former wildcats Brian Yandle and JVR separately. Yandle addresses UNH somewhat but JVR vividly illustrates his recruiting process and 2 years on campus. It’s very interesting and worth a listen as a ‘cats fan. PSA: There is foul language but give the episode a listen or specifically tune into the JVR interview starting at 1:10 into the episode.

    They chat about a fascinating segment that portrays the 2003 Hockeyeast finals in the 2nd OT. Additionally, JVR chats about his recruiting trip to Durham. I’d like to point out that the events JVR outlined at the Whitt were orchestrated by Scott Borek. Now I know some/all of you will disagree or spin this statement, but nonetheless - Scott Borek IS a good recruiter and SHOULD have been the replacement for Richie U. At least would have given the wildcats a better/ best chance of competing again in the NCAAs

    It wouldn’t surprise me if Merrimack is competing in NCAAs consistently in about 4 years onward from now. They will follow the likes of PC, UML, and UMass while UNH will, although I hope I’m wrong, remain average at best. You’ve recently critiqued Borek’s resume. Here are my viewpoints on those to support him being the hypothetical best fit for the current UNH head coach:

    • LSSU: how many of you aren’t better at your job or same profession/trade almost 20 years later? He probably learned a lot under Umile & Leaman
    o Observing both what works, and what doesn’t work to produce wins
    • UNH: the main reason the depth of the recruiting classes diminish after 2013 was because Borek was essentially the only one on the road at that point for UNH. If you were a recruit would you want to talk to Borek or the likes of York, Parker, Donato, Leaman? (UNH asst. vs prominent head coaches who actually recruit)
    o Yes, he had the violation which cost capital in the form of recruits. And yes, the coaching staff collectively misfired on some decisions that saw verbal commits skate at other universities
    o Umile would rarely be seen in person targeting coveted recruits, while the likes of his head coaching competitors were
    • PC: didn’t miss a beat in recruiting or a trip to NCAA tournament while Borek was there

    These are my observations and predictions. Please feel free to disagree or point out flaws in the statements. Nonetheless, give the podcast episode a listen.

    Go cats and happy holidays to you all!

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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcatfan_GoNH View Post
    Fresh (somewhat) topic, regardless of last weekend’s results, for y’all to chew on and likely disagree with...

    Barstool sports produces a hockey podcast called Spittin’ Chiclets. Regardless of your stance on Barstool Sports you should give this episode, or parts of it, a listen - Episode 224. They interview former wildcats Brian Yandle and JVR separately. Yandle addresses UNH somewhat but JVR vividly illustrates his recruiting process and 2 years on campus. It’s very interesting and worth a listen as a ‘cats fan. PSA: There is foul language but give the episode a listen or specifically tune into the JVR interview starting at 1:10 into the episode.

    They chat about a fascinating segment that portrays the 2003 Hockeyeast finals in the 2nd OT. Additionally, JVR chats about his recruiting trip to Durham. I’d like to point out that the events JVR outlined at the Whitt were orchestrated by Scott Borek. Now I know some/all of you will disagree or spin this statement, but nonetheless - Scott Borek IS a good recruiter and SHOULD have been the replacement for Richie U. At least would have given the wildcats a better/ best chance of competing again in the NCAAs

    It wouldn’t surprise me if Merrimack is competing in NCAAs consistently in about 4 years onward from now. They will follow the likes of PC, UML, and UMass while UNH will, although I hope I’m wrong, remain average at best. You’ve recently critiqued Borek’s resume. Here are my viewpoints on those to support him being the hypothetical best fit for the current UNH head coach:

    • LSSU: how many of you aren’t better at your job or same profession/trade almost 20 years later? He probably learned a lot under Umile & Leaman
    o Observing both what works, and what doesn’t work to produce wins
    • UNH: the main reason the depth of the recruiting classes diminish after 2013 was because Borek was essentially the only one on the road at that point for UNH. If you were a recruit would you want to talk to Borek or the likes of York, Parker, Donato, Leaman? (UNH asst. vs prominent head coaches who actually recruit)
    o Yes, he had the violation which cost capital in the form of recruits. And yes, the coaching staff collectively misfired on some decisions that saw verbal commits skate at other universities
    o Umile would rarely be seen in person targeting coveted recruits, while the likes of his head coaching competitors were
    • PC: didn’t miss a beat in recruiting or a trip to NCAA tournament while Borek was there

    These are my observations and predictions. Please feel free to disagree or point out flaws in the statements. Nonetheless, give the podcast episode a listen.

    Go cats and happy holidays to you all!
    Ummm, did not Borek arrive for his second stint at PC AFTER the Friars won their NC?

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    Re: UNH Hockey: Treading Water or Trending Upward

    Quote Originally Posted by Snively65 View Post
    Ummm, did not Borek arrive for his second stint at PC AFTER the Friars won their NC?
    Borek joined PC in June of 2015 so yes, just after as they won in 2015. Hmmm interesting take below on MC projections. I mean, in watching them (MC) play I thought to myself that this MC team, being so young, would be coming on no question. And we all know Borek has a clue about recruiting so if that program can get some traction, welp, you never know. The right players show up at the right time and...Time will tell.

    Gawd, I hope UNH isn't "average" in the future (and, I don't expect them to be) ....that, would be a travesty.

    ps Snives, am watching Bentley V Darmouth…(not live)
    Last edited by HockeyRef; 12-12-2019 at 08:52 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Murray View Post
    Trending upwards at this moment, no doubt. But considering what that's being measured against - the last 3 years of Coach Umile's Long Goodbye, How Can We Miss You When You Won't Leave tour of duty, plus a very shaky start to MS7's reign last Fall - that's admittedly a very low bar to have to clear.

    But it was a necessary bar to clear. There are plenty of examples of programs who fell to the depths of where UNH has been emerging from over the last year or so, who got mired in that losing program mentality, or are still mired in it after many, many years. String together a few more of those on top of the tail end of the Umile Era, and you've got yourself in a world of hurt. Too many people are too young, too new, or too short-sighted to remember far enough back when UNH was a top tier program with D-1 title aspirations for good chunks of the '90's and the '00's as it is. The further you get away from those things, the harder it is for the program to draw on those past glories. Frankly, to a large degree, those attachments are already functionally limited. Sadly, that's the price you pay for never quite getting there. And even for the program up in the Downeast, who did get there (once or twice*), you can see the same gradual slide away from relevance as they've gotten further and further removed from those heights.

    Rebuilding is rarely a straight line process, and especially so in college sports. Digging out from the shambles that were the final months of the Umile Era with a strong finish last season was critical. Someday we may look back at that (this?) and realize just how important it was to get the "last place stank" off the program as quickly as possible, and point to it as a "fluke" instead of a "typical" UNH experience. We had some spirited debates on here over the last few seasons on the pros and cons of the long transition plan to MS7, and I think it's fair to say the "cons" were proven more accurate than not as to the impact on the program during those final Umile Era seasons. The only "saving grace" left for those who favored the plan is if MS7 proves to be worth the effort to kick three seasons to the curb in a sacrifice to get him on board, prep him, and have him hit the ground running.

    As someone who was much more of a "con" than a "pro" for the Umile/BS35+9 plan to gradually shift to MS7, I've always said that for the plan to be vindicated, MS7 needs to knock it out of the park. So far, especially since this time last season, MS7 has done what he needed to do to advance things as far as he could reasonably have been expected to under the totality of the circumstances, and for that he's earned my willingness to be patient and trust him to see what the next year brings for his program. And even if it turns out to be a "treading water" thing … at this point, a .500 season isn't the end of the world, all things considered. Frankly, it may be the most realistic outcome. Might they exceed that? Sure, and I sure do hope so. Might they fall just short? Yeah, that's possible too.

    What UNH cannot afford at this juncture is for the program to tank over the next 90 days like they did in early 2018, or for that matter over the entire 2018 calendar year. MS7's blessing is that his measuring stick - for those who dismiss his impact as a 3 year assistant during the lead-up - is that low water mark, and he's done enough to exceed that … so far. The quality of the players coming to UNH seems to be gradually trending upwards, and that's a good sign. Hopefully MS7's coaching team is collectively going to be able to get these guys coached up while they're here, and that will be what makes or breaks the current regime long-term.

    The jury is still out, but so far I'm encouraged enough to give MS7 and his guys a legitimate vote of confidence - not to be confused with the vacuous ones that ordinarily come a few days before a pro coach gets axed.

    Keep up the good work, MS7. GO UNH!!! JMHO
    I don’t remember anyone arguing that the three-year transition plan was a good one. IIRC, there was unanimity here against the idea. So I wouldn’t get too excited about being one of the “cons” - I don’t think anyone liked it.

    I think the real argument was IF there was any ability to control that happenstance (or if we were limiting the damage of an alleged lifetime deal), or if there was a way to truncate the three years. What I heard ex post facto was that undoing the 3-year deal would have almost inevitably ended in a disastrously messy public spectacle. One that the former prez had zero appetite to engage in.

    I’m just glad it’s in the rear view mirror. Like you, I’m hoping that MS7 keeps the train a rollin’.

    EDIT: now that I think about it, there were some “he earned the right to stay” folks. That stated, I think we all knew deep down that it was a shippy idea
    Last edited by wildcatdc; 12-12-2019 at 08:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HockeyRef View Post
    Borek joined PC in June of 2015 so yes, just after as they won in 2015. Hmmm interesting take below on MC projections. I mean, in watching them (MC) play I thought to myself that this MC team, being so young, would be coming on no question. And we all know Borek has a clue about recruiting so if that program can get some traction, welp, you never know. The right players show up at the right time and...Time will tell.

    Gawd, I hope UNH isn't "average" in the future (and, I don't expect them to be) ....that, would be a travesty.

    ps Snives, am watching Bentley V Darmouth…(not live)
    HR, we have been average to well-below-average since 2012. I think Chuck’s point on each fan;s historical frame of reference is an important one. The expectation of what “top tier” is for many UNH fans was defined by the late 90’s and early 00’s. Really thin air.

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    Re: UNH Hockey: Treading Water or Trending Upward

    Quote Originally Posted by wildcatdc View Post
    HR, we have been average to well-below-average since 2012. I think Chuck’s point on each fan;s historical frame of reference is an important one. The expectation of what “top tier” is for many UNH fans was defined by the late 90’s and early 00’s. Really thin air.
    Well yeah of course it was and that must've been some super heady times; hopeful they can return for those of us that missed all of that...

    Ps. I was referring to the poster below (wildcatfan_GoUnh) who said MC would out class UNH in the next 4 years. And personally I'm not in the position to know one way or the other if that's a possibility. Imagine one of you guys who are into who's coming when/where as far as recruits can make your own speculations.
    Last edited by HockeyRef; 12-12-2019 at 09:11 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HockeyRef View Post
    Well yeah of course it was and that must've been some super heady times; hopeful they can return for those of us that missed all of that...

    Ps. I was referring to the poster below (wildcatfan_GoUnh) who said MC would out class UNH in the next 4 years. And personally I'm not in the position to know one way or the other if that's a possibility. Imagine one of you guys who are into who's coming when/where as far as recruits can make your own speculations.
    Fair enough. Post wasn’t really directed at you. It was more general pessimism from me. Apologies.

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    Re: UNH Hockey: Treading Water or Trending Upward

    Quote Originally Posted by wildcatdc View Post
    Fair enough. Post wasn’t really directed at you. It was more general pessimism from me. Apologies.
    hey wasn't offended....!!! Listen...I can't walk in your (or the other veteran fans here) shoes and some in the past have thought (and posted) I was rather insensitive to the pain of the decline of the program here on this forum. I have no idea why they thought that but perceptions are what they are I guess. Anyway; we all want the same things for the team and it's not easy to go through the lows of something that had so much success in the past. Hopeful, hopeful for our future!! Go 'Cats!

    Ps...not too happy with my Bruins but gee Snively Bentley clawed back and are in OT (getting tons of PP's too...8 Dartmouth penalties)
    Let's Go SouzaCats!

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    Re: UNH Hockey: Treading Water or Trending Upward

    Quote Originally Posted by HockeyRef View Post
    Well yeah of course it was and that must've been some super heady times; hopeful they can return for those of us that missed all of that...

    Ps. I was referring to the poster below (wildcatfan_GoUnh) who said MC would out class UNH in the next 4 years. And personally I'm not in the position to know one way or the other if that's a possibility. Imagine one of you guys who are into who's coming when/where as far as recruits can make your own speculations.
    One man's opinion … Borek is a reliable assistant, but he's not good enough to be a top-notch head coach. No shame in that, but with all due respect to the earlier poster, Borek isn't going to even scratch the modest accomplishments of Mark Dennehy during his time in North Andover. MS7 already has gotten a jump on Borek over their 1+ seasons in charge - starting from a position where he was well behind - and while I'm not certain that he's the one to take UNH back to the almost-Promised Land like his predecessor, I'm ****ed sure Borek wasn't going to pull that off either.

    Say what you will about Borek - and again, I have no exe to grind, and I've heard he's a wonderful human being - but he's been with three programs over the last 20+ seasons who were all at or near the apex of D-1 hockey. Each and every one of them (Lake State, UNH and PC) fell further away from that apex when Borek was on board. Borek wasn't Jeff Jackson … Borek wasn't Brian McCloskey … and Borek wasn't up to the second-in-command under Coach Leaman either. That's more than an isolated trend - it's a pattern, and if that pattern holds, then Borek will be out at MC in 3--5 years with a program that hasn't sniffed the best of the Dennehy era. JMHO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HockeyRef View Post
    hey wasn't offended....!!! Listen...I can't walk in your (or the other veteran fans here) shoes and some in the past have thought (and posted) I was rather insensitive to the pain of the decline of the program here on this forum. I have no idea why they thought that but perceptions are what they are I guess. Anyway; we all want the same things for the team and it's not easy to go through the lows of something that had so much success in the past. Hopeful, hopeful for our future!! Go 'Cats!

    Ps...not too happy with my Bruins but gee Snively Bentley clawed back and are in OT (getting tons of PP's too...8 Dartmouth penalties)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Murray View Post
    One man's opinion … Borek is a reliable assistant, but he's not good enough to be a top-notch head coach. No shame in that, but with all due respect to the earlier poster, Borek isn't going to even scratch the modest accomplishments of Mark Dennehy during his time in North Andover. MS7 already has gotten a jump on Borek over their 1+ seasons in charge - starting from a position where he was well behind - and while I'm not certain that he's the one to take UNH back to the almost-Promised Land like his predecessor, I'm ****ed sure Borek wasn't going to pull that off either.

    Say what you will about Borek - and again, I have no exe to grind, and I've heard he's a wonderful human being - but he's been with three programs over the last 20+ seasons who were all at or near the apex of D-1 hockey. Each and every one of them (Lake State, UNH and PC) fell further away from that apex when Borek was on board. Borek wasn't Jeff Jackson … Borek wasn't Brian McCloskey … and Borek wasn't up to the second-in-command under Coach Leaman either. That's more than an isolated trend - it's a pattern, and if that pattern holds, then Borek will be out at MC in 3--5 years with a program that hasn't sniffed the best of the Dennehy era. JMHO.
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    Re: UNH Hockey: Treading Water or Trending Upward

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackI View Post
    She is baptized Maine fan. So say it... and so it shall be...
    Isn't it a little early in the week for you to be nipping at the moonshine, BlackI??
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