2020 Democratic Challengers VII: Bon Voyage Beto

[ticapnews]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers VII: Bon Voyage Beto

I mean, it’s not free. Goddamit that’s what taxes are for. People would pay less than they’re paying now and I wish people had to take one advanced Econ course before crying about it

It's almost like we should have a ...what's the word I'm looking for...campaign...to...ummm...educate...voters about issues.

Nah. Waste of time.

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers VII: Bon Voyage Beto

It's almost like we should have a ...what's the word I'm looking for...campaign...to...ummm...educate...voters about issues.

Nah. Waste of time.

You can't educate morons. It's been tried. And it's been failed.

[trixR4kids]

Well if you narrowly set the parameters this way then progressives clearly can’t win!

And handy, the reason for the standoffishness is a function of people only scrutinizing the policies of one candidate while applying zero scrutiny to the other candidates who have an objectively worse policy or zero policy (with very few exceptions).

[Kepler]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers VII: Bon Voyage Beto

Reparations

Seriously?
4 more years

Relax, mookie. You'll still have plenty for Asian hookers.

We can get bipartisan support for reparations by writing the law like this. "Here's the money but now we're square."

How much would it be worth to White America to just put our slave past in a can and shoot it into the sun? I'm thinking at least $20 trillion. There are 40 million black people in the US. That's $500k a head. And done.

How about it?

[ticapnews]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers VII: Bon Voyage Beto

You can't educate morons. It's been tried. And it's been failed.

If you think most of the electorate are morons then you've already given up. I choose to believe there are people out there who are smarter than that and can be reached.

[Kepler]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers VII: Bon Voyage Beto

If you think most of the electorate are morons then you've already given up. I choose to believe there are people out there who are smarter than that and can be reached.

It's not that they're morons. In fact most people are pretty clever when they're paying attention, like chimpanzees. You ever see somebody who knows what they're doing work on a car? Finish a deck? Rewire their house? These are people who can't think their way out of a paper bag politically but within their sphere they are NOT stupid. So it's not that they're morons.

It's that most people are rule following. It's not that they are conformist but they believe that the rules of the human universe exist and it's up to them to discover/receive them and then obey them. That there is "human nature" the way there is nature nature. That's why metaphysics of obedience like religions are so popular. Relatively few people ever realize that all social rules are human created and negotiable. Everything we believe got there because of a chain of other people believing it, which means along the line somebody done thunk it up. This goes for everything from gender is binary (or not) to all men are equal (or not) to infanticide is wrong (or not).

It doesn't mean these things are arbitrary or interchangeable -- you get very different worlds if you act one way or the other. But what you believe is a choice. And most people never catch on.

That's what makes logical argument so difficult, because it's what convinces people that when a fact comes in conflict with their beliefs they have to favor their beliefs. They think their belief is an inalienable part of them. And that's just not so. Beliefs are comfortable and often pragmatic but they aren't "true" the way Kepler's laws are true.

[ticapnews]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers VII: Bon Voyage Beto

Beliefs are comfortable and often pragmatic but they aren't "true" the way Kepler's laws are true.

Oh la di da. You have your own laws now.

[Kepler]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers VII: Bon Voyage Beto

Oh la di da. You have your own laws now.

Zaphod's just this guy, you know?

[Handyman]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers VII: Bon Voyage Beto

Well if you narrowly set the parameters this way then progressives clearly can’t win!

And handy, the reason for the standoffishness is a function of people only scrutinizing the policies of one candidate while applying zero scrutiny to the other candidates who have an objectively worse policy or zero policy (with very few exceptions).

You can be standoffish I am not even mad about it. I am just saying if we are going to debate neither side can just ignore the other's arguments as immaterial. We all have salient points here and no one candidate is the "White Knight". BassAle questioning whether Bernie's policies will work in the Rust Belt are legit worries. Whether Mayor Pete can win over Black Voters in the South are legit worries. Being able to debate weaknesses is just as important as debating policies because they will be issues after the Primaries as well.

Think of it like this, no one is saying Bernie shouldnt be President because he had a heart attack. But it makes sense to question whether he can handle the electoral process and all its stress (not to mention the stress of the office) since he had one. The two statements are not equal and should not be treated as such. You and ticap took all of us saying it will be a problem in the long run for his numbers (leave Rover out of this) as us saying "Screw Bernie We Dont Want Him Cause He Is Gonna Die!" when that wasnt the point. What we want and what conventional wisdom tend to say usually contradict. If Warren had a health scare tomorrow (not a Faux News one but a real one) it would bring about the same concerns. The average voter wants to know their candidate is vibrant and healthy. (unless they are Trumpers obviously ) so any real scare is going to hurt that candidate in the long run. Outside of Rover though I am not sure anyone said Bernie should quit because of it, just that we assume it is a bad sign going forward.

I dont want you to stop supporting your guy and I dont want you to abandon your beliefs. I do want you to acknowledge though that everyone else has legitimate beliefs as well. I would prefer the America Bernie wishes us to have (why I have supported him since 2010) but I also understand that a lot of Americans dont feel that way for various reasons and that there will be issues with that so those concerns are valid as well. If people find "Two Years of Free College" more palatable than "All College Free" right now take the compromise and then take the next step in a couple years. It isnt perfect, but if it gets you to your ultimate goal much easier its ok to compromise sometimes. I would PREFER not to ever have to, I would rather dream big and drag everyone forward (which is why I love Omar's Affordable Housing plan as does my father who is not her biggest fan) but I also know that doesnt win you very many elections. Sometimes you have to accept you do what you can to get elected and then lead from the front lines.

[Handyman]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers VII: Bon Voyage Beto

I hope you don't doubt that liberals want the same thing. We want to win in the free market of ideas. We don't want to impose anything. We believe in our ideas and our thought processes and we welcome an honest debate with a free vote at the end. If we lose then we support whoever the party chooses. That's what happened in 2016.

Democrats are not the problem. While a few people can be intolerant intolerance is not baked into the Left the way it is the Right. We are curious while they are authoritarian. We, both center and Left, can have a free and logical debate. They have to argue back from received wisdom to make the facts fit. That's why the more we make electoral processes democratic and free and logical the better Democrats do.

No I think most of us are closer than we let on. I think there are some though that consider any move to the middle at all as a betrayal and that rhetoric, even now, needs to be toned down.

I want the entire platform debated until the last friggin second and I want the policies as Progressive as possible but also as electable as possible.

[ticapnews]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers VII: Bon Voyage Beto

Well if you narrowly set the parameters this way then progressives clearly can’t win!

And handy, the reason for the standoffishness is a function of people only scrutinizing the policies of one candidate while applying zero scrutiny to the other candidates who have an objectively worse policy or zero policy (with very few exceptions).

That's the problem with writing your policies down on paper. They get picked apart. That's why the other candidates haven't done it.

[burd]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers VII: Bon Voyage Beto

I want the entire platform debated until the last friggin second and I want the policies as Progressive as possible but also as electable as possible.

The sweet spot.

[BassAle]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers VII: Bon Voyage Beto

Thank you Handyman


I’d love Bernie or Elizabeth to be president, but who I want to win the primary is whomever has the best chance of beating Trump (and I’m afraid he has a better chance than I’d like to admit of being re-elected). I’m not sure who that is yet.

One thing that is certain is that no matter who wins the primary, I am going to be 100% behind them.

[trixR4kids]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers VII: Bon Voyage Beto

The problem with the concerns about the rust belt are that they somehow avoid any scrutiny of the alternatives. Is Mayo Pete bulldozing the homes people can’t afford to fix going to somehow resonate better? Or the fact that he’s an elite that speaks 7 different languages, went to Harvard, had the world at his fingertips, and then chose to work for a firm that actively worsened the opioid crisis?

Is Biden’s ok boomer let’s do absolutely nothing different campaign going to resonate better? The chances that’s he’s more likely to get new voters to the polls and generate more excitement than abuela are close to zero, I couldn’t name a single person in real life or the internet who’s excited for the guy, donates to him, or is willing to volunteer for him. I know some who would’ve fell into at least one of those 3 for Hillary. He has like zero small donations and his rallies aren’t very well attended compared to the candidates to his left. I truly believe there was more excitement for Hillary’s campaign than his.

I don’t doubt some people legitimately hold the belief that there’s concern over his weaknesses but if they can’t go two words without saying Bernie Bro and aren’t nearly as critical of the alternatives and act like scrutiny towards them is some huge affront then it’s hard to take them seriously.

[mookie1995]

Relax, mookie. You'll still have plenty for Asian hookers.

We can get bipartisan support for reparations by writing the law like this. "Here's the money but now we're square."

How much would it be worth to White America to just put our slave past in a can and shoot it into the sun? I'm thinking at least $20 trillion. There are 40 million black people in the US. That's $500k a head. And done.

How about it?

White vote support will be in the low single digits.

To white america, slave past is done already. You here endlessly that they, nor their parents, never owned a slave.

True landslide tD victory, then tD jr after him, if this talk continues.

Book it