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World Soccer XXX: We Have Men Too!

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  • Re: World Soccer XXX: We Have Men Too!

    Originally posted by Kepler View Post
    I don't think it's a terrible system at all and I love the idea of punishing owners who have found a safe, warm rentier space of being the Washington Generals, collecting the check, and being insulated from all consequences.

    Thought experiment: take all of recognized association football, all nations that are accepted (start with about the top 20 national league systems), all levels, worldwide, and have all revenue shared between all teams. It doesn't have to be exactly equal, there can be a gentle curve based on results and tier. Reward winning... but not insanely. Punish losing or dropping, but not lethally. So, say, ManU winds up with a revenue sharing check that is 2x a tier 2 contending team, 4x a tier 3 contending team, 2^(n-1)x a tier n contending team.

    That preserves the merits of pro/rel. If managed correctly, Havant & Waterlooville F.C. can someday win the EPL title. Likewise, if managed poorly enough, Liverpool can someday fall to tier 8. But dropping from tier 1 to tier 2 won't bankrupt you. In fact you'll go into relegation with a leg up on the other teams because you will still have talent geared for tier 1, and your revenue sharing check might be half but it won't be 1/100th of before so you can still pay your players. You won't make as much personal profit but you lost, f-ck you, you shouldn't. Own smarter.

    Fixed leagues are boring and they create perverse incentives for owners who are already predatory rich f-cks. If you want to take all teams public and give them to the citizens of their cities then we can talk about fixed leagues. Until then, pro/rel is better.
    except Tier 1 talent rarely stays if you go down to Tier 2...thats one of the biggest misunderstandings of the whole thing. The players arent stuck, so they usually care the least after the moment of failure is over because they won't be there next year.
    Michigan Tech Legend, Founder of Mitch's Misfits, Co-Founder of Tech Hockey Guide, and Creator/Host of the Chasing MacNaughton Podcast covering MTU Hockey and the WCHA.

    Sports Allegiance: NFL: GB MLB: MIL NHL: MIN CB: UW CF: UW CH: MTU FIFA: USA MLS: MIN EPL: Everton

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    • Re: World Soccer XXX: We Have Men Too!

      Originally posted by Shirtless Guy View Post
      except Tier 1 talent rarely stays if you go down to Tier 2...thats one of the biggest misunderstandings of the whole thing. The players arent stuck, so they usually care the least after the moment of failure is over because they won't be there next year.
      But, again, they have to move back to tier 1 now because of the chasm. You guys are reversing cause and effect. The super teams don't exist because pro/rel sucks. Pro-rel sucks because the super teams exist. And the leagues don't care because there's more money in marketing Man City to China than Colchester United to the rest of Essex. Everybody loses except the power 5 owners, the league gliterati who get paid under the table, and Sky TV.
      Cornell University
      National Champion 1967, 1970
      ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
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      • Re: World Soccer XXX: We Have Men Too!

        Originally posted by Kepler View Post
        But, again, they have to move back to tier 1 now because of the chasm. You guys are reversing cause and effect. The super teams don't exist because pro/rel sucks. Pro-rel sucks because the super teams exist. And the leagues don't care because there's more money in marketing Man City to China than Colchester United to the rest of Essex. Everybody loses except the power 5 owners, the league gliterati who get paid under the table, and Sky TV.
        and how do you get the EPL teams, especially the blue bloods to ever agree to changing that structure?
        Michigan Tech Legend, Founder of Mitch's Misfits, Co-Founder of Tech Hockey Guide, and Creator/Host of the Chasing MacNaughton Podcast covering MTU Hockey and the WCHA.

        Sports Allegiance: NFL: GB MLB: MIL NHL: MIN CB: UW CF: UW CH: MTU FIFA: USA MLS: MIN EPL: Everton

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        • Re: World Soccer XXX: We Have Men Too!

          Originally posted by Shirtless Guy View Post
          and how do you get the EPL teams, especially the blue bloods to ever agree to changing that structure?
          You don't. You force them.
          Cornell University
          National Champion 1967, 1970
          ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
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          • Re: World Soccer XXX: We Have Men Too!

            Originally posted by Shirtless Guy View Post
            and how do you get the EPL teams, especially the blue bloods to ever agree to changing that structure?
            There's a plan out there to have a European Super League where the top 20 or so money teams in Europe leave domestic leagues behind and play each other. The TV money would be staggering.

            That would make the EPL and other domestic leagues more equitable but the pie would be considerably smaller.

            Curious what some of our experts around here think of the plan.

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            • Re: World Soccer XXX: We Have Men Too!

              Originally posted by ticapnews View Post
              There's a plan out there to have a European Super League where the top 20 or so money teams in Europe leave domestic leagues behind and play each other. The TV money would be staggering.

              That would make the EPL and other domestic leagues more equitable but the pie would be considerably smaller.

              Curious what some of our experts around here think of the plan.
              Would it be a fixed league or would it be like a season-long ECL, and then the next season there would be pro/rel from the rest of the Euro field?

              If it's fixed it just becomes MLB. Presumably the people who hate pro/rel will rejoice. All of the rest of European soccer now becomes the minor leagues. Eventually maybe they'll even become formally affiliated with major clubs as AAA, AA, A... Blech. But there's a sh-t ton of money in it.

              Guessing:

              Real Madrid
              Barcelona
              Athletico Madrid

              ManU
              ManCity
              Chelsea
              Arsenal
              Liverpool

              Bayern
              Dortmund

              Juventus
              Inter
              Roma
              Milan

              PSG
              Marseille

              Ajax
              Eindhoven

              Benfica
              Porto
              Last edited by Kepler; 11-19-2019, 02:33 PM.
              Cornell University
              National Champion 1967, 1970
              ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
              Ivy League Champion 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1977, 1978, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1996, 1997, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2012, 2014, 2018, 2019, 2020

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              • Originally posted by ticapnews View Post
                There's a plan out there to have a European Super League where the top 20 or so money teams in Europe leave domestic leagues behind and play each other. The TV money would be staggering.

                That would make the EPL and other domestic leagues more equitable but the pie would be considerably smaller.

                Curious what some of our experts around here think of the plan.
                That’s been on the table for 20+ years. It’s a tool used by the G-14 clubs whenever something is to be negotiated. It’s how the Champions League was expanded, it’s how dates on the international calendar were agreed upon, it’s how clubs got compensation for injuries at major international tournaments.

                It would be a competition that would make the money the NFL pulls in seem like peanuts.

                I’d also guess that 10-15 mid tier PL/Championship clubs would go into administration after a year.
                U-A-A!!!Go!Go!GreenandGold!
                Applejack Tells You How UAA Is Doing...
                I spell Failure with UAF

                Originally posted by UAFIceAngel
                But let's be real...There are 40 some other teams and only two alaskan teams...the day one of us wins something big will be the day I transfer to UAA
                Originally posted by Doyle Woody
                Best sign by a visting Seawolf fan Friday went to a young man who held up a piece of white poster board that read: "YOU CAN'T SPELL FAILURE WITHOUT UAF."

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                • Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                  Would it be a fixed league or would it be like a season-long ECL, and then the next season there would be pro/rel from the rest of the Euro field?

                  If it's fixed it just becomes MLB. Presumably the people who hate pro-rel will rejoice. All of the rest of European soccer now becomes the minor leagues. Eventually maybe they'll even become formally affiliated with major clubs as AAA, AA, A... Blech. But there's a sh-t ton of money in it.
                  It’d be a fixed league, no way anyone involved is going to risk giving up that check.
                  U-A-A!!!Go!Go!GreenandGold!
                  Applejack Tells You How UAA Is Doing...
                  I spell Failure with UAF

                  Originally posted by UAFIceAngel
                  But let's be real...There are 40 some other teams and only two alaskan teams...the day one of us wins something big will be the day I transfer to UAA
                  Originally posted by Doyle Woody
                  Best sign by a visting Seawolf fan Friday went to a young man who held up a piece of white poster board that read: "YOU CAN'T SPELL FAILURE WITHOUT UAF."

                  Comment


                  • Re: World Soccer XXX: We Have Men Too!

                    Originally posted by Jimjamesak View Post
                    I’d also guess that 10-15 mid tier PL/Championship clubs would go into administration after a year.
                    Not if the transfer fees for their best players matched the new superleague's profitability.

                    They would have to junk their stadiums > 50k but who has those other than the teams that would go? Spurs. Lazio. West Ham. Napoli. Valencia. Mönchengladbach. Newcastle.

                    Anybody else?

                    Maybe the seceding teams could pay a hefty restitution for gutting the national leagues?
                    Cornell University
                    National Champion 1967, 1970
                    ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
                    Ivy League Champion 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1977, 1978, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1996, 1997, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2012, 2014, 2018, 2019, 2020

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                    • Re: World Soccer XXX: We Have Men Too!

                      Can I suggest a few topics of research for you guys:

                      Formation of the Premier League
                      25 years of the Premier League
                      Some background on the G-14 clubs
                      The dissolution of the G-14 and the formation of the ECA
                      The efforts by the ECA to completely revamp the Champions League
                      U-A-A!!!Go!Go!GreenandGold!
                      Applejack Tells You How UAA Is Doing...
                      I spell Failure with UAF

                      Originally posted by UAFIceAngel
                      But let's be real...There are 40 some other teams and only two alaskan teams...the day one of us wins something big will be the day I transfer to UAA
                      Originally posted by Doyle Woody
                      Best sign by a visting Seawolf fan Friday went to a young man who held up a piece of white poster board that read: "YOU CAN'T SPELL FAILURE WITHOUT UAF."

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                        Not if the transfer fees for their best players matched the new superleague's profitability.

                        They would have to junk their stadiums > 50k but who has those other than the teams that would go? Spurs. Lazio. West Ham. Napoli. Valencia. Mönchengladbach. Newcastle.

                        Anybody else?

                        Maybe the seceding teams could pay a hefty restitution for gutting the national leagues?
                        Every team in the Championship spends more money than they bring in and lower level PL teams are largely relying upon that TV money to barely make profits. And most of those teams are carrying huge debt loads from financing their PL ambitions.

                        Take away the big teams and that TV money will be a fraction of what it is now but the debt will still exist.
                        U-A-A!!!Go!Go!GreenandGold!
                        Applejack Tells You How UAA Is Doing...
                        I spell Failure with UAF

                        Originally posted by UAFIceAngel
                        But let's be real...There are 40 some other teams and only two alaskan teams...the day one of us wins something big will be the day I transfer to UAA
                        Originally posted by Doyle Woody
                        Best sign by a visting Seawolf fan Friday went to a young man who held up a piece of white poster board that read: "YOU CAN'T SPELL FAILURE WITHOUT UAF."

                        Comment


                        • Re: World Soccer XXX: We Have Men Too!

                          Originally posted by Jimjamesak View Post
                          Every team in the Championship spends more money than they bring in and lower level PL teams are largely relying upon that TV money to barely make profits. And most of those teams are carrying huge debt loads from financing their PL ambitions.

                          Take away the big teams and that TV money will be a fraction of what it is now but the debt will still exist.
                          But they won't be spending nearly the same amount of money because they will no longer be in an arms race with the EPL teams.

                          It will be like the teams that got left behind by the power 5 consolidation in the NC$$. They survived. They don't run as hot but they are also more stable. SMU, Houston, Rice, UTEP, BYU, UNM, ...

                          I agree the debt is something that needs to be solved so I recommend a condition of the formation of the superleague is the golden teams buy it out.
                          Cornell University
                          National Champion 1967, 1970
                          ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
                          Ivy League Champion 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1977, 1978, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1996, 1997, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2012, 2014, 2018, 2019, 2020

                          Comment


                          • Re: World Soccer XXX: We Have Men Too!

                            Originally posted by Jimjamesak View Post
                            Every team in the Championship spends more money than they bring in and lower level PL teams are largely relying upon that TV money to barely make profits. And most of those teams are carrying huge debt loads from financing their PL ambitions.

                            Take away the big teams and that TV money will be a fraction of what it is now but the debt will still exist.
                            How many of the big clubs are actually revenue positive anyway? Man U just announced a £350M debt, the Chelsea debt is over £1 billion.

                            Comment


                            • Re: World Soccer XXX: We Have Men Too!

                              Originally posted by ticapnews View Post
                              How many of the big clubs are actually revenue positive anyway? Man U just announced a £350M debt, the Chelsea debt is over £1 billion.
                              Is this like our teams and leagues who cry poverty as part of leverage while meanwhile they'll rolling in it on a different set of books?

                              It's not a charity. If it wasn't profitable the owners wouldn't be there, they'd be investing in bauxite or Amazon or human trafficking.
                              Cornell University
                              National Champion 1967, 1970
                              ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
                              Ivy League Champion 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1977, 1978, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1996, 1997, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2012, 2014, 2018, 2019, 2020

                              Comment


                              • Re: World Soccer XXX: We Have Men Too!

                                Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                                Is this like our teams and leagues who cry poverty as part of leverage while meanwhile they'll rolling in it on a different set of books?

                                It's not a charity. If it wasn't profitable the owners wouldn't be there, they'd be investing in bauxite or Amazon or human trafficking.
                                As I understand it, the owners basically leverage the crap out of the football teams. It's like late game Monopoly where no one can afford to buy Boardwalk so it goes for $15 at auction and is immediately mortgaged for $200.

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