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2020 Democrat Challengers Part II: There Can Be Only One

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  • Re: 2020 Democrat Challengers Part II: There Can Be Only One

    Originally posted by trixR4kids View Post
    No I fully understand that and have even said I'd vote for the lesser of evils. But realistically that's a stop gap measure from fascism and not a very effective or long term one.
    When you sever your femoral artery, you don't worry about what you're going to have for dinner tomorrow.
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    • Re: 2020 Democrat Challengers Part II: There Can Be Only One

      Originally posted by ScoobyDoo View Post
      Sadly, most Americans do not make this calculation. Trump is beloved by his 35%. If the Dems pick someone with no love attached again they may find themselves in a heap of trouble.
      They don't make that calculation because its a stupid one. Again, for the umpteenth time. If you don't fully comprehend the danger of 4 more years of the cult in charge, and will only vote Dem if the candidate makes your loins tingle, you get what you deserve. Fascism will come a lot sooner if Trump is re-elected then it will if someone like Biden wins.
      Legally drunk???? If its "legal", what's the ------- problem?!? - George Carlin

      Ever notice how everybody who drives slower than you is an idiot, and everybody who drives faster is a maniac? - George Carlin

      "I've never seen so much reason and bullsh*t contained in ONE MAN."

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      • Re: 2020 Democrat Challengers Part II: There Can Be Only One

        Originally posted by Rover View Post
        and will only vote Dem if the candidate makes your loins tingle
        That's not what he's saying. This is your favorite soapbox, I know, but it's not what he's saying.

        And the fact still stands, Rover, that while you and I and trix and Scoob are going to vote blue no matter who the vast majority of voters are casual consumers, and if you trundle sh-t out to them and it doesn't sell then that isn't the consumers' fault, it's the product.

        The empirical evidence is it doesn't matter how bad things get -- if the Dems serve up a sh-t sandwich like last time we're gonna lose again. That isn't liberals, Rove. Liberals eat sleep and die politics. It's casual voters who don't know what their precinct is and don't know where their polling place is unless we remind them every 15 seconds.

        The Left has never been our problem.
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        • Originally posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
          When you sever your femoral artery, you don't worry about what you're going to have for dinner tomorrow.
          If you’re a republikkan, you worry about making sure that no poor children are getting a free lunch at school tomorrow

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          • Re: 2020 Democrat Challengers Part II: There Can Be Only One

            Originally posted by Kepler View Post
            That's not what he's saying. This is your favorite soapbox, I know, but it's not what he's saying.

            And the fact still stands, Rover, that while you and I and trix and Scoob are going to vote blue no matter who the vast majority of voters are casual consumers, and if you trundle sh-t out to them and it doesn't sell then that isn't the consumers' fault, it's the product.

            The empirical evidence is it doesn't matter how bad things get -- if the Dems serve up a sh-t sandwich like last time we're gonna lose again. That isn't liberals, Rove. Liberals eat sleep and die politics. It's casual voters who don't know what their precinct is and don't know where their polling place is unless we remind them every 15 seconds.

            The Left has never been our problem.
            Exactly. The people in this thread who actually care enough to follow politics closely know that "severing your femoral artery" is worse than walking towards oncoming traffic on I-35. But in a lot of states where voting isn't easy and designed to be a huge burden, the average person isn't going to waste their time and energy to vote for the oncoming traffic option. And even if oncoming traffic wins that's still highly problematic.

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            • Originally posted by joecct View Post
              On a scale of 1 (far right loonie) to 100 (left wing progressive loonie) rate the candidates.

              Michael Bennet
              Joe Biden
              Bill de Blasio
              Cory Booker
              Steve Bullock
              Pete Buttigieg
              Julián Castro
              John Delaney
              Tulsi Gabbard
              Kirsten Gillibrand
              Mike Gravel
              Kamala Harris
              John Hickenlooper
              Jay Inslee
              Amy Klobuchar
              Wayne Messam
              Seth Moulton
              Beto O'Rourke
              Tim Ryan
              Bernie Sanders
              Eric Swalwell
              Elizabeth Warren
              Marianne Williamson
              Andrew Yang
              https://youtu.be/AzRAmoKtrZg (start at 1:35).

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              • Re: 2020 Democrat Challengers Part II: There Can Be Only One

                Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                That's not what he's saying. This is your favorite soapbox, I know, but it's not what he's saying.

                And the fact still stands, Rover, that while you and I and trix and Scoob are going to vote blue no matter who the vast majority of voters are casual consumers, and if you trundle sh-t out to them and it doesn't sell then that isn't the consumers' fault, it's the product.

                The empirical evidence is it doesn't matter how bad things get -- if the Dems serve up a sh-t sandwich like last time we're gonna lose again. That isn't liberals, Rove. Liberals eat sleep and die politics. It's casual voters who don't know what their precinct is and don't know where their polling place is unless we remind them every 15 seconds.

                The Left has never been our problem.
                THEN LET THEM GET FUKED!!!! I'm not sure how this hasn't been crystal clear from my postings from the past couple of eons, but I'll say it again. Chump and his cult isn't affecting me any. If you (collectively, not you personally) can't see what the GOP is made out of, then its YOUR problem when they take away your healthcare and give it to billionaires in the form of tax cuts. If fundies start taking away your freedoms, oh well. They aren't running my state, so they aren't my problem either.

                In short, I have zero desire to help people who refuse to help themselves. Helping themselves is defined as bothering enough to figure out where to vote and who to vote for based on the vast divide between where the two parties stand. You and trix act too much like the tired old canard is true about there's not a dimes worth of difference between the two parties, trotted out by con-men like George Wallace and Ralph Nader. I can't speak to their stances 50 years ago but in the here and now if you can't see the difference you're a fuking idiot. The stakes are too high for "It's casual voters who don't know what their precinct is and don't know where their polling place is unless we remind them every 15 seconds". They can either smarten up or get screwed. Now do you get my angle here?
                Legally drunk???? If its "legal", what's the ------- problem?!? - George Carlin

                Ever notice how everybody who drives slower than you is an idiot, and everybody who drives faster is a maniac? - George Carlin

                "I've never seen so much reason and bullsh*t contained in ONE MAN."

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                • Re: 2020 Democrat Challengers Part II: There Can Be Only One

                  Rover: People vote for fascism, they deserve what they get
                  Trix: if people vote for delayed fascism do they deserve what they get?
                  Rover: wHy WoULd yOu vOtE fOr fAsCiSm now!?!?

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                  • Re: 2020 Democrat Challengers Part II: There Can Be Only One

                    Originally posted by trixR4kids View Post
                    Rover: People vote for fascism, they deserve what they get
                    Trix: if people vote for delayed fascism do they deserve what they get?
                    Rover: wHy WoULd yOu vOtE fOr fAsCiSm now!?!?
                    Gotta be an idiot if you think voting for Biden leads to delayed fascism, but can't say I'm surprised at your crackpot theory.

                    You're starting to make Kepler look sane.
                    Legally drunk???? If its "legal", what's the ------- problem?!? - George Carlin

                    Ever notice how everybody who drives slower than you is an idiot, and everybody who drives faster is a maniac? - George Carlin

                    "I've never seen so much reason and bullsh*t contained in ONE MAN."

                    Comment


                    • Re: 2020 Democrat Challengers Part II: There Can Be Only One

                      Yeah it's not like we can't look at other countries like France or the countless historical examples of similar candidates leading to that outcome

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                      • Re: 2020 Democrat Challengers Part II: There Can Be Only One

                        Originally posted by trixR4kids View Post
                        Yeah it's not like we can't look at other countries like France or the countless historical examples of similar candidates leading to that outcome
                        If anybody can translate trix' argument please have at it.
                        Legally drunk???? If its "legal", what's the ------- problem?!? - George Carlin

                        Ever notice how everybody who drives slower than you is an idiot, and everybody who drives faster is a maniac? - George Carlin

                        "I've never seen so much reason and bullsh*t contained in ONE MAN."

                        Comment


                        • Re: 2020 Democrat Challengers Part II: There Can Be Only One

                          Originally posted by trixR4kids View Post
                          Yeah it's not like we can't look at other countries like France or the countless historical examples of similar candidates leading to that outcome
                          Well, in Weimar-era Germany, it was hardly "Third Way" neoliberalism that swept the Nazis into power following the worldwide economic collapse in the early 30s. Multiple factors went into that mess, most of all the Treaty of Versailles and economic mismanagement that led to hyperinflation. The US has neither of those currently hanging over its head, but we do have plenty of other problems that are fcuking over a sizable part of the population.

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                          • Re: 2020 Democrat Challengers Part II: There Can Be Only One

                            Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                            No. We really don't. The Dumpies would deserve it but the other 65% of us can just go ahead, vote for Biden, and grin from ear to ear.

                            Blue no matter who, all the way from dog catcher on to president. No R no matter how good, no third parties, nothing. If we don't like our choices we can run ourselves, or shut the f-ck up, because the line is all played out, now. In the last 25 years the GOP has used up every inch of the democratic slack this country built up over the prior 218 years.
                            Yep that needs to be the standard for now. Not my favorite idea mind you but until the GOP grows a spine they get no quarter.
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                            • Re: 2020 Democrat Challengers Part II: There Can Be Only One

                              Originally posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
                              If given the choice between Paul Ryan and Donald Trump, I'd enthusiastically take Paul Ryan. He'd **** us economically, but at least he wouldn't be putting us in weekly constitutional crises.

                              That's the fundamental scenario you seem to not be getting. ANYTHING is better than Trump.

                              Would I prefer a Klobuchar or Warren? Yes, 100% yes.
                              I would personally drink the hemlock because I coudnt handle making the choice...but yes even Paul Ryan is better than Trump.
                              "It's as if the Drumpf Administration is made up of the worst and unfunny parts of the Cleveland Browns, Washington Generals, and the alien Mon-Stars from Space Jam."
                              -aparch

                              "Scenes in "Empire Strikes Back" that take place on the tundra planet Hoth were shot on the present-day site of Ralph Engelstad Arena."
                              -INCH

                              Of course I'm a fan of the Vikings. A sick and demented Masochist of a fan, but a fan none the less.
                              -ScoobyDoo 12/17/2007

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                              • Re: 2020 Democrat Challengers Part II: There Can Be Only One

                                Originally posted by FadeToBlack&Gold View Post
                                Well, in Weimar-era Germany, it was hardly "Third Way" neoliberalism that swept the Nazis into power following the worldwide economic collapse in the early 30s. Multiple factors went into that mess, most of all the Treaty of Versailles and economic mismanagement that led to hyperinflation. The US has neither of those currently hanging over its head, but we do have plenty of other problems that are fcuking over a sizable part of the population.
                                I don't think Germany is the best comparison, mostly because it's a different version (and the logical extreme) of fascism and as you mention the economic conditions were certainly worse there. But as you also mention the various problems here open the door for the more US-centric brand of it. Henry Giroux's article talks about how it invaded the US and some of the causes as well as going over the Germany comparison. The other thing I'd say is that "neoliberalism" doesn't necessarily mean third way politics, it mostly just refers to the idea that the market can fix everything which often leads to all the problems related to crony capitalism run amok.

                                Theorists, novelists, historians and writers that include such luminaries as Hannah Arendt, Sinclair Lewis, Bertram Gross, Umberto Eco, Robert O. Paxton, Timothy Snyder, Susan Sontag and Sheldon Wolin have argued convincingly that fascism remains an ongoing danger and has the ability to become relevant under new conditions. After the fall of Nazi Germany, Arendt warned totalitarianism was far from a thing of the past because the conditions of extreme precarity and uncertainty that produce it were likely to crystallize into new forms.21

                                What Arendt thought was crucial for each generation to recognize was that the presence of the Nazi camps and the policy of extermination should be understood not only as the logical outcome of a totalitarian society or simply a return of the past, but also for what their histories suggest about forecasting a “possible model for the future.”22 The nightmare of fascism’s past cannot escape memory because it needs to be retold over and over again so as to recognize when it is happening again. Rather than fade into the past, mass poverty, unchecked homelessness, large-scale rootlessness, fearmongering, social atomization, state terrorism and the politics of elimination have provided the seeds for new forms of fascism to appear. Paxton, the renowned historian of fascism, argues in his “The Anatomy of Fascism” that the texture of American fascism would not mimic traditional European forms but would be rooted in the language, symbols and culture of everyday life:

                                "No swastikas in an American fascism, but Stars and Stripes (or Stars and Bars) and Christian crosses. No fascist salute, but mass recitations of the Pledge of Allegiance. These symbols contain no whiff of fascism in themselves, of course, but an American fascism would transform them into obligatory litmus tests for detecting the internal enemy.23"

                                Given the alarming signs that have come into play under the Trump administration, it is hard to look away and condone the suppression of the history and language of fascism and its relevance for understanding America’s flight from the promise and ideals of a substantive democracy. This is not to suggest the only template for addressing the legacy of fascism is to point to Nazi Germany, the most extreme of the fascist states, or, for that matter, to Mussolini’s brand of fascism. Not only does the comparison not work, but it tends to understand fascist ideals only against its most extreme expressions.

                                While it is true the U.S. may not be putting millions in gas chambers or promoting genocide, there remain reworked elements of the past in the present. For instance, there are already echoes of the past in existing and expanding infrastructures of punishment—amounting to a carceral state—that have grown exponentially in the past four decades. In fact, the United States has the largest prison system in the world, with more than 2.5 million people incarcerated. Astonishingly, this figure does not include immigrant detention centers and other forms of encampment around the U.S. border with Mexico. The visibility of this state-sanctioned punishing apparatus and its similarity to a fascist history was on display recently with the caging of young immigrant children who were forcibly separated from their parents at the southern border for months at a time. Needless to say, such institutions and actions resonate with deeply disturbing events of a dark past for which the violent separation of families was a hallmark feature of fascist brutality.

                                Reports of widespread abuse of imprisoned unaccompanied migrant children separated from their parents are increasingly being reported in the press. Detained under inhumane and cruel conditions, many of these children in government detention centers are allegedly being drugged, sexually abused, and subject to a range of inhumane actions. In Texas, a federal judge ordered a detention center to stop forcing children to take psychotropic drugs such as Clonazepam, Divalproex, Benztropine and Duloxetine in order to control their behavior. Needless to say, such actions, policies, and institutions resonate with deeply disturbing events of a dark past in which the violent separation of families was a hallmark feature of fascist cruelty, barbarism and brutality.
                                https://www.truthdig.com/articles/ne...es-of-history/ (that article is more US/Trump focused but gives a background on fascism and the conditions that lead to it)
                                Last edited by trixR4kids; 05-17-2019, 05:08 PM.

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