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2019 IIHF Women's Worlds

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  • Re: 2019 IIHF Women's Worlds

    Originally posted by Timothy A View Post

    These frame by frame reviews are killing sports. All of them. All of these reviews need to be eliminated. All of them. It's obvious that the more they try to get right, it just increases the mistakes, it doesn't fix anything. Plus there are always people who see it differently, even in slow motion and freeze frame. Sports existed just fine before video replay. Get rid of it.

    I've seen a lot of hockey over my time, my reaction in the moment was that the Fins won. I had no inkling of a problem. Rigsby tried to cover it, the puck went in front of the net, they scored.
    .
    My opinion, although I don't know if anybody here agrees with me, is these frame by frame reviews are killing sports. All of them. All of these reviews need to be eliminated. All of them. It's obvious that the more they try to get right, it just increases the mistakes, it doesn't fix anything. Plus there are always people who see it differently, even in slow motion and freeze frame. Sports existed just fine before video replay. Get rid of it.

    (Truth is maybe this position is slightly stronger than mine-but very well said )

    I've seen a lot of hockey over my time, my reaction in the moment was that the Fins won. I had no inkling of a problem. Rigsby tried to cover it, the puck went in front of the net, they scored.

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    • Re: 2019 IIHF Women's Worlds

      Originally posted by TonyTheTiger20 View Post
      Some of you folks are out of your gourd
      Haha! I knew that would draw some comments.

      But with the benefit of that Twitter video (and thanks to that poster) this whole thing stinks badly and is a blight on the Womens Game. It couldn't smell any worse as far as optics are concerned. The story obviously has legs but just the wrong kind.

      Don't recall seeing an overhead view of it that Pokechecker referred to, unless I thought it was inconclusive and forgot about it. Maybe he or someone else can post that view here to see if it changes perceptions.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Blackbeard View Post
        Haha! I knew that would draw some comments.

        But with the benefit of that Twitter video (and thanks to that poster) this whole thing stinks badly and is a blight on the Womens Game. It couldn't smell any worse as far as optics are concerned. The story obviously has legs but just the wrong kind.

        Don't recall seeing an overhead view of it that Pokechecker referred to, unless I thought it was inconclusive and forgot about it. Maybe he or someone else can post that view here to see if it changes perceptions.
        Basketball survived 1972. The women's game will survive this.
        CCT '77 & '78
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        I want to live forever. So far, so good.

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        • Re: 2019 IIHF Women's Worlds

          Originally posted by Blackbeard View Post
          This statement is provably wrong. Wrong because it is inside out.

          Just watched that Twitter video multiple times stopping it at various times and it is as clear as can be that Rigsby, at the last split second before contact is made, shot her left arm and shoulder out in Hirikoski's path to get the puck. And that there was enough room for Hirikoski to continue along her path while narrowly avoiding collision with Rigsby had Rigsby not lunged out in front of her. The collision was caused by Rigsby, not Hirikoski. I suggest you watch it multiple times and stop the video multiple times. And for what it's worth I think this video also shows that Hirikoski did make an effort to minimize the impact that Rigsby made unavoidable.

          (Your statement is like saying to the judge in court that you are not guilty of assault because when you tapped the assaulted person on the shoulder to get their attention that when they turned to see who was tapping them on the shoulder and you punched him in the kisser that the assaulted person did nothing to avoid your punch).

          I was left last night after several stop start viewings of my recorded version, which cannot be controlled as accurately as the twitter video, with three thoughts:

          1. As Eyeore pointed out...what is the definition of "in the crease" because, as you accurately pointed out, Rigsby's trailing leg was still in the crease, although it wouldn't have been for long.

          2. Had the collision not occurred it struck me that it might have been remotely possible for Rigsby to have been able to reach back with her glove to attempt to stop the shot that ended up in the net. However, without the collision would the puck have ended up where it did for Niemenen to have been able to get to the puck and get a shot away? Even the Twitter video does not make that clear. The puck disappears from sight for a while and makes that assessment impossible.

          3. If the call was tripping on Rigsby (and it was) and if no US player touched the puck between that time and the puck's ending up in the net...the goal should have counted...and should count.


          But the Twitter video with the better start stop capabilities renders the "in the crease" argument useless and irrelevant, in my opinion, because the collision was inarguably caused by Rigsby.

          We have the incredible advantage of multiple start stop replays...the official behind the goal line did not. The Twitter video proves that she got the tripping call on Rigsby right. She deserves praise although it was probably as clear as day to her.

          After reading the official explanation it seems to me that the "officials" and the IIHF want their cake after having devoured it. The rule book is obviously insufficient on this matter.

          It is also seeming more to me like the US should take one for the Womens Game, like Canada did, and voluntarily cede the Gold Medal to Team Finland even while the IIHF continues to devour their cake.

          The appearance of justice having been done would be accomplished and Team USA would gain another measure of respect, worldwide, further raising the profile of the Womens Game. Although the momentum of the moment will have been lost should that occur. And it might create such embarrassing pressure on the IIHF as to cause them to revisit the rule book and make some seemingly necessary changes.

          I'm not holding my breath.
          Provably??? See your entire diatribe becomes meaningless with your horrible English.
          The Titanic only had one Captain..........
          "You're holding your mouth wrong." Jim Cole
          "Don't take any wooden nickels." Ray Rouse
          9 Time World Champion Boston Red Sox ('03,'12,'15,'16,'18,2004, '07, '13, '18)

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          • Re: 2019 IIHF Women's Worlds

            Originally posted by pokechecker View Post
            give the win to Finland because it's good for hockey?
            clearly, some of you are throwing reality out the window.

            Rigsby loses the puck and while reaching for it (with her left leg from the knee on down within the crease) gets run into by the Finn, thus preventing her from gathering it in. If having a leg from the knee on down is in the crease, it was interference by the Finn, if not, Finland wins. simple as that

            The ref that called tripping on Rigsby need to have their eyes checked and/or head examined. In any event go back to reefing peewee.

            It's unfortunate that the game came down to a reviewed play, but even so, they need to toss the SO out in the championship game and play 5 on 5 until somebody wins.
            if this were a feel good sport we would not keep score........................
            The Titanic only had one Captain..........
            "You're holding your mouth wrong." Jim Cole
            "Don't take any wooden nickels." Ray Rouse
            9 Time World Champion Boston Red Sox ('03,'12,'15,'16,'18,2004, '07, '13, '18)

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            • Re: 2019 IIHF Women's Worlds

              On the bright side, the controversy seems to have the magical "17" trending higher...
              At the outset, we could hang with the dude...

              Comment


              • Re: 2019 IIHF Women's Worlds

                Originally posted by robertearle View Post
                I was 'away' for the weekend, and heard nothing at all about the game, etc. But FWIW, this is what I see on the videos I've seen this morning:

                Rigsby is entirely out of her crease when contacted by the Finn skater; she has already had her chance to cover the puck, and it has gotten away from her by the time the contact is made (though without the contact, she might have been able to get it on a second try).the ref behind the goal and to Rigsby's right raises her hand to call a penalty and then signals goal. At no time, as far as I can see, does any US player 'play the puck'. So if the upcoming penalty is going to be on Rigs, no reason for a whistle to stop play; play continues, and goal is scored.

                Finn goal. No question at all. Finn goal.
                That is exactly how I saw it at the time of the play and I have not changed my opinion. The goal should have counted.
                "Everything that rises must converge." Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

                Comment


                • Re: 2019 IIHF Women's Worlds

                  Originally posted by FiveHoleFrenzy View Post
                  On the bright side, the controversy seems to have the magical "17" trending higher...
                  Bright is not the word I would use in regard to some of the posts.
                  "Everything that rises must converge." Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

                  Comment


                  • Re: 2019 IIHF Women's Worlds

                    Originally posted by sacole13 View Post
                    Provably??? See your entire diatribe becomes meaningless with your horrible English.
                    I suggest that you consult a dictionary.

                    Comment


                    • Re: 2019 IIHF Women's Worlds

                      Originally posted by Blackbeard View Post
                      Haha! I knew that would draw some comments.

                      But with the benefit of that Twitter video (and thanks to that poster) this whole thing stinks badly and is a blight on the Womens Game. It couldn't smell any worse as far as optics are concerned. The story obviously has legs but just the wrong kind.

                      Don't recall seeing an overhead view of it that Pokechecker referred to, unless I thought it was inconclusive and forgot about it. Maybe he or someone else can post that view here to see if it changes perceptions.
                      sorry, I cannot find the original video, but there is this: https://***********/cjzer0/status/1117540558099111939
                      it shows that Rigsby lost control of the puck, then reaches for it, and just as she is about to grab it, the Finn collides with her (going for the loose puck) and Rigsby leg from knee down is in the crease
                      this angle does not show if her leg is in contact with the ice (does it matter?)
                      upon looking at other angles, it appears to me her leg was in contact with the ice before and at the moment of impact

                      what's really frustrating is that an official was right there with as good a look as you can possibly get, I hope that official wasn't the one who called Rigsby for tripping, that's just insane

                      BTW, the Finnish players skate is in the crease

                      for sure this is a tough call even after looking at it dozens of times from different angles, but the fact is, her leg was in the crease when she was hit
                      the only thing I can say for sure is that Rigsby did not trip the player and that it should come as no surprise the play was reviewed

                      it would have been cool that Finland beat both Canada & USA, but according to the officials, who has the only opinion that matters, it didn't quite happen
                      Last edited by pokechecker; 04-15-2019, 07:11 PM.

                      Comment


                      • Re: 2019 IIHF Women's Worlds

                        I find it interesting that the IIHF is hinging its defense on whether the contact was incidental rather than whether Rigsby was in her crease. I also think that it is an incredibly weak defense of the video review. First off, the definition of "incidental" is really vague. It's often held that "incidental" means contact that doesn't affect the play. However, this can't be the definition that the IIHF is using, as they quote in their statement Rule 183 ii, which talks about incidental contact while the goalie is playing the puck. So, it is possible for contact similar for this to be incidental.

                        It seems to hinge on whether Hiirikoski made "a reasonable effort to minimize or avoid such contact." More, if it's going to be overturned by video review, it must be conclusive that she did not make such an attempt. I see no way in which that standard could be met here. Hiirikoski is taking the only path available to her to reach a rebound that's well outside the crease. When Rigsby lunges out after the puck, there's no time for her to avoid the contact. It seems that the IIHF's position is that the only way for her to have made a reasonable attempt to avoid contact is not to have chased the rebound at all. If that's the way that the rule is to be understood, then hockey players everywhere will need to change the way they go after the puck when it's within ten feet of the crease.

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                        • Re: 2019 IIHF Women's Worlds

                          from the rules: goaltender’s ability to play his position is based on his ability to move freely in his goal crease. Although an attacking skater is allowed to skate through the goal crease, he runs the risk of incurring a penalty or nullifying a goal by doing so. Furthermore, any contact the attacking skater initiates with a goaltender, either directly or by pushing an opponent into the goaltender, also runs the risk of incurring a penalty or nullifying a goal.

                          1. If an attacking skater establishes position in the goal crease, play will be stopped and the ensuing faceoff will take place at the nearest faceoff spot in the neutral zone.

                          2. An attacking skater who commits a foul on a goaltender, regardless of the goaltender’s ability to play his position or where the puck is being played, will be penalized.

                          3. If a goaltender is outside his goal crease and an attacking skater prevents the goaltender from returning to his crease or prevents the goaltender from playing his position properly while a goal is scored, the goal will not count and the attacking skater will be assessed a minor penalty for interference.

                          4. If an attacking skater is in the goal crease and initiates incidental contact with the goaltender, preventing the goaltender from playing his position when the puck enters the net, the goal will not count and no penalty will be assessed.

                          the rules are online as a pdf, see rules 184 through 186 (not that it is going to end the controversy)
                          Last edited by pokechecker; 04-15-2019, 07:28 PM.

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                          • Re: 2019 IIHF Women's Worlds

                            Originally posted by pokechecker View Post
                            the rules are online as a pdf, see rules 184 through 186 (not that it is going to end the controversy)
                            The pdf is here: https://www.iihf.com/IIHFMvc/media/D...018_Web_v2.pdf

                            Rules 99 and 150 are also relevant here.

                            Comment


                            • Re: 2019 IIHF Women's Worlds

                              Originally posted by TonyTheTiger20 View Post
                              Some of you folks are out of your gourd
                              Oh come on. You've forgotten that you ever even had a gourd.

                              I'm not saying that Finland got robbed as clearly as Auburn did. People can come up with some courtroom explanation for why the USA should win. That's the world we live in. But people like Tim, robertearle, D2D, and I am biased for the USA; that's the team that had more of the players we've cheered over the years. The fact that we all think that Finland won, and we don't agree on all that much, should tell you something.

                              Blackbeard wants the USA to give away the gold medal; I think that would be even more of an insult at this point. Once the ref waved the goal off, I'm not sure that any result was ever going to be as poetic as the moment deserved.

                              The shootout did offer some intrigue. Noora was able to stop Knight, someone she has gone head-to-head versus many times, but her match up with Kessel for those stakes was more interesting, given how many times they must have gone against each other in practice while teammates for three seasons. Noora didn't give her much, but Kessel knew that five-hole would have to open and she'd have to execute with a small margin for error. It's easier for someone like Pankowski who is less familiar and has moves that the goalie has never seen before from her. When a goalie gets to see the same shooter over and over, it is harder to surprise her.

                              That was a good explanation of what probably happened, with the replay can't overturn the penalty and all that. Maybe that is the "right" call. I don't know. But in my heart, it feels wrong. The US had five players on the ice. Knight had skated too long a shift in OT, got caught 200 ft from her own net, and only wanted to get off the ice. Who was the other forward? Coyne? She made a risky pinch knowing the first forward was already out of the play, and she got beat. Finland #6 is coming in one on two, and I love Bozek, but she went around her like she was a pylon. Bellamy offered little resistance, Rigsby wasn't able to control the rebound, fumbled it away, and lost her positioning in the net. If a team can't defend against a single opponent any better than that, maybe it deserves to lose?

                              Anyway, it was like when an adult is at an MLB baseball game and he catches a foul ball. Maybe Mike Trout hit it and the guy really admires Trout, but he hands the ball to some six-year-old kid, because he knows that kid will always remember getting that foul ball. I'm sure the American players liked winning the medal, but at the end of their careers, it isn't going to be a top five hockey memory for Knight, Decker, Kessel, or Stecklein. For the Finnish players, winning that medal in front of their fans would have been the top hockey memory, and it wouldn't even have been close. I'm just sad for the world that the story ended the way that it did. Everyone was left wishing for better.
                              "... And lose, and start again at your beginnings
                              And never breathe a word about your loss;" -- Rudyard Kipling

                              Comment


                              • Re: 2019 IIHF Women's Worlds

                                Originally posted by ARM View Post
                                Everyone was left wishing for better.

                                Thank you for this, and thank you for segueing to the dreaded shootout. Kessel’s goal was nasty.

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